Gaston de Foix

The Unholy Consult post-release SPOILER thread IV

389 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

Who is this ACM person?

 

Oh sweet mother of God you don't want to go down that hole but google the essay Laura Mixon won a Hugo for last year if you really must.

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Lots of questions:

 

1. Why didn't Kelhus have a navy? Would it not have been far more useful to have a large navy with accompanying mages which would sail up the coast, creating supply dumps, and then would ferry the army across the Leash? They would have mostly avoided the Horde, and the whole "Eat Sranc - go crazy - indulge in a rape and cannibalism spree" would have been unnecessary. Kelhus had plenty of time, why not do this?

 

2. Why did Kelhus go back to get Esmenet and the kid? I never really understood his actual feelings towards Esmenet. And why did he not kill the kid? Even if he could not guess what the kid was upto, he was a distraction. 

 

3. So was Akka's entire role travelling around and being grumpy? Also was Mimara's entire role just to get a child? Her Judging Eye did not really do a lot at crucial times. 

 

4. So the Scylvendi's plan was to ambush Kelhus at Golgoterrath? Or was that a later innovation? Was his main plan to find Ishual?

 

5. How did Kelmomas trigger the No God? Because he was Kelhus' son?

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Why is Serwë (from PoN) damned and Esmenet is not? Serwë was forced into slavery while Esme chose to become a prostitute, then to remain a prostitute when Achamian, whom she loved, offered her a way out, and finaly, she was a willing accomplice in Khellus' atrocities for years and even ordered deaths of innocents herself.

And does anyone remembers Bakker saying that Serwë is some kind of cipher for the series?

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18 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

Why is Serwë (from PoN) damned and Esmenet is not? Serwë was forced into slavery while Esme chose to become a prostitute, then to remain a prostitute when Achamian, whom she loved, offered her a way out, and finaly, she was a willing accomplice in Khellus' atrocities for years and even ordered deaths of innocents herself.

And does anyone remembers Bakker saying that Serwë is some kind of cipher for the series?

Well, we don't know for a fact that Serwë is actually damned, but I am willing to accept the possibility of it being true.

If so, I (even before TUC (I think)) I speculated that it could be because she worshiped the "false idol" that is Kellhus.  Esmenet, on the other hand, actually strives (meagerly) against him.

Additionally (possibly alternatively), doesn't Kellhus say something to the effect that he sheltered Esmenet from the worst of the crimes by keeping her ignorant?  I guess it sort of worked.  But I don't think it would have worked had Esmenet not aided the WLW, really.

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7 hours ago, Hello World said:

Well, before the AMA the most interesting discussion was about Kellhus' deal with Ajokli... And for all the early talk about Bakker leaving it to the readers to come up with their own meaning for Akaa, Mimara, Esmenet's arcs I've seen almost no discussion or any interesting thoughts about this from readers who liked the book, including on TSA. I did see one of his fans randomly saying that the book was great because it resolved all the plot lines and characters arcs, but besides that one guy, the discussion so far has been critics pointing out that several important plotlines and character arcs were not resolved, and Bakker's fans defending him not by anything substantive but by saying things like "YMMV" and "why would you expect resolution in the first place? lol".

:agree:

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Posted (edited)

Well, that's entirely untrue. Unlike here, over at TSA there is a ton of speculation on varying topics. 

You could say that Mimara was just always meant to be at the Ark for the birth of the No-God. She always had the Eye, was told she had two alive twins by Koringhus. Right now there is discussion on wether or not the NG caused the stillbirth of the 2nd baby or not. I don't feel it's even up for debate, it was, but nevertheless there is discussion. 

I'm not trying to get anyone to like it more, just to understand this was never supposed to be the "end". If anything, if you need closure to series, there is that in the end, no matter all his planning and intellect Kellhus couldn't prevent the rise of the NG. If anything else, there is that. You can take away that part of the Celmommian prophecy is true, where it says that end of the world falls to Seswatha. And Akka will have to be that extension of Seswatha and go try and rally mankind. Maybe the Heron Spear isn't what killed the NG, which is hinted at in Akka's dream. And, it will either be Mimara or Meppa (God own Voice) that kills the NG. 

There's plenty to speculate about. You guys just choose not to. Instead a author who you've speculated on for 10-15 years, you've chose to go this route and complain. Which is fine, it's your feelings regarding the book. 

Edited by Michael Seswatha Jordan

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25 minutes ago, Obligatory Username said:

 

3. If you bookend TAE's narrative for those two characters by what happens, Achamian becomes "The Wizard," the Seswatha of The Second Apocalypse, and Mimara becomes "The True Prophet." It's a fairly insightful exercise to isolate the narrative arcs as written, rather than arguing intent or execution.

Also, breaking down TAE's narrative and character arcs book by book is remarkably interesting too - especially given the contested narrative "snip" mentioned above.

4. Cnaiur's plan was to play the Consult and Kellhus and have his vengeance on the latter, all peoples and nations be damned. The Consult's (or rather the Mutilated's) plan for the Scylvendi was to sacrifice them to the Yimaleti Horde after the Scylvendi had engaged the Ordeal's flank.

 

Thanks for clearing up the point about Cnaiur. 

I don't really see how Akka is Seswatha. Seswatha advised and stood by the original Anasurimbors. He witnessed some pf the greatest events of the First Apocalypse. In PoN Akka does this somewhat. But in AE he is far more marginal. What his future role will be is of course up for speculation. 

15 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Well, that's entirely untrue. Unlike here, over at TSA there is a ton of speculation on varying topics. 

You could say that Mimara was just always meant to be at the Ark for the birth of the No-God. She always had the Eye, was told she had two alive twins by Koringhus. Right now there is discussion on wether or not the NG caused the stillbirth of the 2nd baby or not. I don't feel it's even up for debate, it was, but nevertheless there is discussion. 

I'm not trying to get anyone to like it more, just to understand this was never supposed to be the "end". If anything, if you need closure to series, there is that in the end, no matter all his planning and intellect Kellhus couldn't prevent the rise of the NG. If anything else, there is that. You can take away that part of the Celmommian prophecy is true, where it says that end of the world falls to Seswatha. And Akka will have to be that extension of Seswatha and go try and rally mankind. Maybe the Heron Spear isn't what killed the NG, which is hinted at in Akka's dream. And, it will either be Mimara or Meppa (God own Voice) that kills the NG. 

There's plenty to speculate about. You guys just choose not to. Instead a author who you've speculated on for 10-15 years, you've chose to go this route and complain. Which is fine, it's your feelings regarding the book. 

I thought that it was pretty obvious that the second child died because the NG was revived at that very instant. 

Kellhus' failure is tracked back to his strange blindness regarding his youngest son. For me it does not matter if Kellhous could not see him like other people, bringing his son who at this point had only been an annoying distraction, and Esmenet who did not really matter to Kellhus' ultimate design all the way across the continent makes no sense. Wha was his precise relationship with Esmenet? Why did he put so much store by her wishes?

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5 minutes ago, Andorion said:

I thought that it was pretty obvious that the second child died because the NG was revived at that very instant. 

Kellhus' failure is tracked back to his strange blindness regarding his youngest son. For me it does not matter if Kellhous could not see him like other people, bringing his son who at this point had only been an annoying distraction, and Esmenet who did not really matter to Kellhus' ultimate design all the way across the continent makes no sense. Wha was his precise relationship with Esmenet? Why did he put so much store by her wishes?

Well your asking the guy who was a champion of Kellhus gaining more and more emotions as the story went along. I believe he loved Esme, in his own unusual way, which is why he didn't kill Kel. It wouldve been the end of her after losing so many of her kids.

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, Andorion said:

Kellhus' failure is tracked back to his strange blindness regarding his youngest son. For me it does not matter if Kellhous could not see him like other people, bringing his son who at this point had only been an annoying distraction, and Esmenet who did not really matter to Kellhus' ultimate design all the way across the continent makes no sense. Wha was his precise relationship with Esmenet? Why did he put so much store by her wishes?

Kellhus is literally mad.  He even gives an "example" to little Kel that "Some souls are broken in such a way as to think themselves whole,” he said. “The more they are flawed, the more they presume their own perfection."  The irony, of course, is that while this can apply to little Kel, it also applies to Kellhus himself.

So, we already know that Kellhus had "vestigial passions" and so, really, by TUC he is doing stuff and he no long knows why.

Why is Esmenet even important?  I don't think even Kellhus knows.  Just like he doesn't know why Mimara is important.  Esmenet (in a fashion of the Christian Mary, mother of God (while simultaneously having elements (possibly) of Mary Magdalene)) is the entrance point into the world, only not of just God (i.e. the God of gods, i.e. Mimara) but also the No-God.  What the hell that means, I don't know, but Esmenet is important, even if we don't know why and probably never will.

Edited by .H.

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5 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Well your asking the guy who was a champion of Kellhus gaining more and more emotions as the story went along. I believe he loved Esme, in his own unusual way, which is why he didn't kill Kel. It wouldve been the end of her after losing so many of her kids.

Its not that I haven't considered it. The problem with this theory is that there are no actual examples of this in the text. Apart from Esmenet, the only person he had direct interactions with was Proyas and he used those to utterly destroy Proyas. It would have been nice to actually have some textual evidence for his relationship with Esmenet. I am pretty sure most of his children's PoV's were about how he was completely elevated and separate from Esmenet. 

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2 minutes ago, .H. said:

Kellhus is literally mad.  He even gives an "example" to little Kel that "Some souls are broken in such a way as to think themselves whole,” he said. “The more they are flawed, the more they presume their own perfection."  The irony, of course, is that while this can apply to little Kel, it also applies to Kellhus himself.

So, we already know that Kellhus had "vestigial passions" and so, really, by TUC he is doing stuff and he no long knows why.

Why is Esmenet even important?  I don't think even Kellhus knows.  Just like he doesn't know why Mimara is important.  Esmenet (in a fashion of the Christian Mary, mother of God (while simultaneously having elements (possibly) of Mary Magdalene)) is the entrance point into the world, only not of just God (i.e. the God of gods, i.e. Mimara) but also the No-God.  What the hell that means, I don't know, but Esmenet is important, even if we don't know why and probably never will.

This is a very good point. I was actually considering the condition of his sanity. I really did think that line you quoted was directed at little Kel. But vestigial passions would indicate that as a Dunyain he was seriously flawed. And yet inspite of all this, he came incredibly close. Kel being where he was owes more to luck than design. 

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3 minutes ago, Andorion said:

Its not that I haven't considered it. The problem with this theory is that there are no actual examples of this in the text. Apart from Esmenet, the only person he had direct interactions with was Proyas and he used those to utterly destroy Proyas. It would have been nice to actually have some textual evidence for his relationship with Esmenet. I am pretty sure most of his children's PoV's were about how he was completely elevated and separate from Esmenet. 

In TWP, Kellhus is worried when Esmi almost falls while she's pregnant. I vaguely recall him feeling upset when Aurang says that she loves Akka in TTT. There's also the fact that he notes in TGO that his heart would collapse if his family and empire fall apart.

I don't think this justifies the revelation that he cared about Esmi to the extent that he would rescue her from Momemn or spare Kelmomas for her, though.

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4 minutes ago, Andorion said:

Its not that I haven't considered it. The problem with this theory is that there are no actual examples of this in the text. Apart from Esmenet, the only person he had direct interactions with was Proyas and he used those to utterly destroy Proyas. It would have been nice to actually have some textual evidence for his relationship with Esmenet. I am pretty sure most of his children's PoV's were about how he was completely elevated and separate from Esmenet. 

Wrong, and I have more complete posts here and and at SA. What I proposed is what made Kellhus "mad" was when he loses his shit on the Circumfix looking at a dead Serwe and knowing he did this to her. He thinks he can will her back to life actually, go and re-read. Also, when he meets Moe at Kyudea. He says something along the lines of losing Esme would be the end of him (I'm paraphrasing obviously). So, there is textual evidence and straight from the horse's mouth. Its only that in TAE, we have almost zero Kellhus POV.

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45 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

There's plenty to speculate about. You guys just choose not to. Instead a author who you've speculated on for 10-15 years, you've chose to go this route and complain. Which is fine, it's your feelings regarding the book. 

If I can't understand the revelations because of shoddy writing, why bother speculating? Having Ajokli manifest himself immediately after Kellhus declaring that he made treaties with hell was such a bizarre decision if Bakker really intended for Kellhus to be caught unaware by Ajokli's interference as he declared in the AMA.

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Just now, Andorion said:

This is a very good point. I was actually considering the condition of his sanity. I really did think that line you quoted was directed at little Kel. But vestigial passions would indicate that as a Dunyain he was seriously flawed. And yet inspite of all this, he came incredibly close. Kel being where he was owes more to luck than design. 

Right, it is aimed at little Kel, but the irony is that he might as well be looking in a mirror.

All Dunyain have those kinds of passions though.  Perhaps Kellhus more or less than any other, but chances are Kellhus, broken (probably by the Circumfix), was more open to madness, so more open to the Outside, therefor more open to the Darkness and the passions.  In a way, I think Kellhus knows this, but there really isn't anything he can do about it.  Were the world not at stake, he could sit and disentangle it all, figure it all out.  As it was, he is pressed on all sides and just goes along with it.  Just like he goes along with killing his own father, despite realizing that was insane.

No such thing as luck though.  Not in the real world or Eärwa, really.  Little Kel was there because little Kel had to be there.  Kellhus was saved because he had to be and Kellhus died because he had to die.  It's all sorts of a paradox and self-referential, but it is.  Kellhus was never going to be the No-God, because the gods could see him.  Kellhus was never going to "win" because little Kel was always going to be the No-God.

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4 minutes ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

If I can't understand the revelations because of shoddy writing, why bother speculating? Having Ajokli manifest himself immediately after Kellhus declaring that he made treaties with hell was such a bizarre decision if Bakker really intended for Kellhus to be caught unaware by Ajokli's interference as he declared in the AMA.

You can speculate all you choose to, you do not. I have and always will take whatever Bakker says with a grain of salt, since the Cnaüir deal. He's just as ambiguous in his answers to questions as he is in the books. And, why would you expect him to be any other way, honestly?

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4 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

You can speculate all you choose to, you do not. I have and always will take whatever Bakker says with a grain of salt, since the Cnaüir deal. He's just as ambiguous in his answers to questions as he is in the books. And, why would you expect him to be any other way, honestly?

The g-string comment and the fact that we got quite a few answers in TTT, which ended its respective sub-series in a way I found satisfying.

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14 minutes ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

In TWP, Kellhus is worried when Esmi almost falls while she's pregnant. I vaguely recall him feeling upset when Aurang says that she loves Akka in TTT. There's also the fact that he notes in TGO that his heart would collapse if his family and empire fall apart.

I don't think this justifies the revelation that he cared about Esmi to the extent that he would rescue her from Momemn or spare Kelmomas for her, though.

I interpreted his conduct towards Esme in TWP as being part of his plan to take her away from Akka. I was under the interpretation that he was trying to make his circle entirely dependent on him by undermining their interpersonal ties. 

13 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Wrong, and I have more complete posts here and and at SA. What I proposed is what made Kellhus "mad" was when he loses his shit on the Circumfix looking at a dead Serwe and knowing he did this to her. He thinks he can will her back to life actually, go and re-read. Also, when he meets Moe at Kyudea. He says something along the lines of losing Esme would be the end of him (I'm paraphrasing obviously). So, there is textual evidence and straight from the horse's mouth. Its only that in TAE, we have almost zero Kellhus POV.

I need to go and reread the Circumfix part. I actually thought that the latter remark was a standard Kellhus lie. 

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8 minutes ago, Andorion said:

I interpreted his conduct towards Esme in TWP as being part of his plan to take her away from Akka. I was under the interpretation that he was trying to make his circle entirely dependent on him by undermining their interpersonal ties. 

I need to go and reread the Circumfix part. I actually thought that the latter remark was a standard Kellhus lie. 

He says it to himself I believe, not to Moe. Inner dialogue.

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22 minutes ago, Andorion said:

I need to go and reread the Circumfix part. I actually thought that the latter remark was a standard Kellhus lie. 

Here is a small "analysis" I did of the Circumfix scene post-TGO.  Not sure how helpful it will be for you, but maybe I was on some kind of track there (I won't say right)...

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