The Unholy Consult post-release SPOILER thread IV

[Darth Richard II]

People are defending the MRA dragon.

I have now seen everything.

 

[lokisnow]

On 9/3/2017 at 5:26 PM, Gronzag said:

So its just bad writing from Bakker, because he failed to indicate to readers that something is wrong with Khellus throughout Aspect Emperor, and that wrong is becoming progressively worse.

Raping proyas is a bit of a clue some would say.

except it is not. Because there is no progression or intermediate stages it's just, stab your father then your next perspective scene three books later, you rape a main character.

*looks at a forking twig, whose branches grasp and penetrate the gasping air surrounding it,* no, they are not equal.

[unJon]

1 minute ago, lokisnow said:

Raping proyas is a bit of a clue I'd say.

Just occurred to me that Kel Ajokli'd Proyas. Have Proyas everything his heart desired. . . And then ripped it all away at the end. 

[Hello World]

9 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Raping proyas is a bit of a clue I'd say.

Pretty much no one will read that and think Ajokli is taking over Kellhus, which is what Gronzag is talking about (I think?). At least not at first read, and even after that it's debatable.

[lokisnow]

I posted it, thought about it and edited it because I didn't agree with my own off the cuff reaction! Damn you guys posted fast, i agree, obviously.

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah I always figured that was just a ON NO BAKKER moment.

[lokisnow]

I thought the g string was a combination of Ajokli+kellhus alliance and kellhus' statements that he was going to turn damnation into his own tool, becoming the antichrist etc Yadda yadda.  I LOVED the inversion that the libertarian fascist genocidal doc savage, ender wiggin, fantasy / sci-fi hero trope is revealed to be actively plotting to be the worst monster of all and affirmatively embraces his own exquisite evil. I thought this was fucking brilliant.

 

then Bakker fucked it all up, with the AMA and said nope, nothing was going on in the golden room, lol.

[Darth Richard II]

Reminds me a bit of all the Ridley Scott post Prometheus interviews, which I won't mention in case any of you liked the film and didn't read them, but well, its similar. Some of the reasons for things was...yeah.

[Callan S.]

5 hours ago, lokisnow said:

Raping proyas is a bit of a clue some would say.

except it is not. Because there is no progression or intermediate stages it's just, stab your father then your next perspective scene three books later, you rape a main character.

Err, talking with a duplicate of himself? The whole "Who better to burn them?" bit? I mean, the duplicate could just plain be Ajokli in disguise.

And the whole idea is what would it be like under an apparent super competent leader who is actually an utter fruitcake?

[Kalbear]

14 hours ago, lokisnow said:

I thought the g string was a combination of Ajokli+kellhus alliance and kellhus' statements that he was going to turn damnation into his own tool, becoming the antichrist etc Yadda yadda.  I LOVED the inversion that the libertarian fascist genocidal doc savage, ender wiggin, fantasy / sci-fi hero trope is revealed to be actively plotting to be the worst monster of all and affirmatively embraces his own exquisite evil. I thought this was fucking brilliant.

 

then Bakker fucked it all up, with the AMA and said nope, nothing was going on in the golden room, lol.

It's another indicator that Kellhus is at least somewhat the author insertion. Kellhus making a deal with Ajokli was, IMO, a great hook - failing or no, it's a great idea for a plan, and it reframes the entire fight against Yatwer/Momas/Gilgaol as all of those gods desperately attempting to stop Ajokli from plundering the granary. It is something that would be very hard for the Consult - Dunyain or otherwise - to counter. 

But then we get the explanation, and the explanation is worse.

Of course, that could be Bakker fucking with us and the explanation is not accurate, but the explanation fits the facts on the ground if you assume that Kellhus is supposed to be the Ender/Paul character. If his intentions are supposed to justify his actions, and he was simply failing, then he's just another poor wubbie. 

As to the g-string moment, I think it was simply that the Great Ordeal failed, the No-God walks, and the gods are fucked up. Though on the 'gods are fucked up' part - it's clear that post No-God gods can walk around and be fairly influential in the world. They might not see the No-God, but they can certainly use their power and be even coherent. Just like Ajokli needed Kellhus' intellect, perhaps Yatwer and others can interact with the world and do interesting things. 

[Darth Richard II]

I'm begging to buy heavily into what I think it was lokisnow's theory about Bakker just being the ultimate troll.

[Lutarez]

Maybe Bakker was possesed when he made the AMA... 

 

Anyway, I really hate the "kellmomas was always the No-God" angle. It makes everything Kellhus does meaningless... looking back and understanding that every decision and clever trick he made was predestined...makes tge dunyain incredibly lame

[Kalbear]

Just now, Lutarez said:

Anyway, I really hate the "kellmomas was always the No-God" angle. It makes everything Kellhus does meaningless... looking back and understanding that every decision and clever trick he made was predestined...makes tge dunyain incredibly lame

It's the tough thing about prophecy and the like and getting it right while making it feel like the story still has some wiggle room. It's especially odd given all the weirdness of Kelmomas and Ajokli earlier, and how it's not remotely clear that he is invisible to the gods until well into TUC (and even that is somewhat opaque). In this case I think I agree with you - that this specific ending has too much of the 'this happened because it has to happen, and it has to happen this way because this is the way it happened', which feels unsatisfying and tautological. 

[kuenjato]

17 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It's the tough thing about prophecy and the like and getting it right while making it feel like the story still has some wiggle room. It's especially odd given all the weirdness of Kelmomas and Ajokli earlier, and how it's not remotely clear that he is invisible to the gods until well into TUC (and even that is somewhat opaque). In this case I think I agree with you - that this specific ending has too much of the 'this happened because it has to happen, and it has to happen this way because this is the way it happened', which feels unsatisfying and tautological. 

This is why I hate prophecy. Makes it all puppet strings etc. I hate it with he same passion I hate the Big Moe theories. 

Every time I wander into this thread, the more I dislike TAE as a whole.  

[Durckad]

Random stupid thought on the whole Ajokli-Kelhuss Possession Deal:

Kelhuss did have a deal with Ajokli, but he didn't expect Ajokli to assert full control in the Golden Room. He perhaps thought he was strong enough to merely utilize Ajokli's god-powers while still being in full control of his facilities. That was his plan, make a deal with Ajokli and screw him over at the last possible minute while using his divine power along with the gnosis and his Dunyain abilities to fight the Consult leaders. As it is, the closer he gets to Golgotteroth, the more Ajokli starts to assert dominion over Kelhuss and Kelhuss is none the wiser. Then the plan goes to shit when Ajokli takes full control.

I don't think there's anything in the AMA response that totally contradicts this, but I could be wrong, as I don't have the link handy at the moment.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Durckad said:

Random stupid thought on the whole Ajokli-Kelhuss Possession Deal:

Kelhuss did have a deal with Ajokli, but he didn't expect Ajokli to assert full control in the Golden Room. He perhaps thought he was strong enough to merely utilize Ajokli's god-powers while still being in full control of his facilities. That was his plan, make a deal with Ajokli and screw him over at the last possible minute while using his divine power along with the gnosis and his Dunyain abilities to fight the Consult leaders. As it is, the closer he gets to Golgotteroth, the more Ajokli starts to assert dominion over Kelhuss and Kelhuss is none the wiser. Then the plan goes to shit when Ajokli takes full control.

I don't think there's anything in the AMA response that totally contradicts this, but I could be wrong, as I don't have the link handy at the moment.

We honestly don't know, though apparently Kellhus' was really attempting to save the world, so the raiding the granary plan was not the 'right' option for him. 

As I've said elsewhere, however, if the plan was to destroy the No-God and the Consult once and for all, Kellhus had so many other tools at his disposal that he could have used that what he ended up doing makes no sense. 

[Hello World]

Is there any good explanation for why he didn't destroy the Dunyain after killing Moenghus other than they had plot armor? 

[Kalbear]

31 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Is there any good explanation for why he didn't destroy the Dunyain after killing Moenghus other than they had plot armor? 

Kellhus is fallible and can't think of everything or do everything?

That said, it seems like such an absurdly glaring oversight. Shae may be very dangerous, but he's nothing compared to DunShae's ability to use Tekne or anticipate things that Kellhus would want to do. I guess Kellhus might have hoped that the Consult would expend a lot of their resources in attempting to kill the Dunyain and kill two birds with one stone, but the potential of facing so much more risk seems like a really big loss. 

Then again, I still don't understand why Kellhus doesn't just teleport to Golgotterath and obliterate the Oars by himself. 

[Darth Richard II]

Like I said, he's making it up as he goes along.

[Durckad]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Kellhus is fallible and can't think of everything or do everything?

That said, it seems like such an absurdly glaring oversight. Shae may be very dangerous, but he's nothing compared to DunShae's ability to use Tekne or anticipate things that Kellhus would want to do. I guess Kellhus might have hoped that the Consult would expend a lot of their resources in attempting to kill the Dunyain and kill two birds with one stone, but the potential of facing so much more risk seems like a really big loss. 

Then again, I still don't understand why Kellhus doesn't just teleport to Golgotterath and obliterate the Oars by himself. 

Kelhuss only destroys the horn when he gets a hold of the Sun Spear from Aurang and we have no idea if he even knows if they have such a weapon before the Great Ordeal embarks. Considering the horns are made of soggomant, which is (I believe) described as nearly indestructible, perhaps mere sorcery, even gnostic sorcery, can't damage them. Considering the horns are still intact even after the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars, this makes sense. It might take something with the power of the Sun Spear or the Heron Spear to damage the horns at all.

Despite all of my problems with the book, why Kelhuss didn't just teleport in and blow up the Consult is not one of them.