JMMapelwood

What is the role of Gendry?

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Posted (edited)

Why did they go to all the trouble saving an at first sight unimportant character? What difference will  Gendry's life  make in long run? Your thoughts please!

Edited by JMMapelwood
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^ Aye, I think so as well.

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Posted (edited)

 

Assuming Jon/Dany win the throne after defeating the WW, Gendry is bound to be legitimized by Dany/Jon (assuming he lives through the Great War), given Storm's End, and will be named Lord of the Stormlands and Warden of the South.  It is known...

Edited by Jaehaerys Stark

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Just now, Jaehaerys Stark said:

IAssuming Jon/Dany win the throne after defeating the WW, Gendry is bound to be legitimized by Dany/Jon (assuming he lives through the Great War), given Storm's End, and will be named Lord of the Stormlands and Warden of the South.  It is known...

I agree. House Baratheon is now extinct, and as one of the great houses, it is only natural that it has to be restored. Gendry will hopefully survive and prove that he is worthy of being the man to restore it.

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Just now, JordanJH1993 said:

I agree. House Baratheon is now extinct, and as one of the great houses, it is only natural that it has to be restored. Gendry will hopefully survive and prove that he is worthy of being the man to restore it.

The problem remains that there is no way for him to prove that he's Robert's bastard, unless one of the books or scrolls Sam stole from the Citadel mentions a black haired boy born to King Robert and a yellow haired scrubber from Flea Bottom, who was apprenticed to a blacksmith and made an amazing bull's head helmet.

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1 minute ago, Tywinelle said:

The problem remains that there is no way for him to prove that he's Robert's bastard, unless one of the books or scrolls Sam stole from the Citadel mentions a black haired boy born to King Robert and a yellow haired scrubber from Flea Bottom, who was apprenticed to a blacksmith and made an amazing bull's head helmet.

The problem is that there is never much proof any child is really someone's bastard. Ned said Jon was his bastard, but it turned out all along he wasn't. Maybe if enough people believe the truth that Gendry is Robert's son, that will be all it takes.

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He was obviously brought back to become Jon's new BFF, drawing parallels with Ned and Robert.

Besides, who else would have ran back to Eastwatch to send the ravens? Tormund? Nobody is going to buy into that. Huge chains materializing out of thin air? Fine. A slightly heavier guy going to send the ravens? Too much suspension of disbelief.:P

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6 minutes ago, Tywinelle said:

The problem remains that there is no way for him to prove that he's Robert's bastard, unless one of the books or scrolls Sam stole from the Citadel mentions a black haired boy born to King Robert and a yellow haired scrubber from Flea Bottom, who was apprenticed to a blacksmith and made an amazing bull's head helmet.

I think what we are forgetting here is that a royal decree trumps all, right?  Was Ramsay documented somewhere as being Roose Bolton's bastard?  I don't remember having seen that anywhere.  Yet, Joffrey issued a decree legitimizing Ramsay, just so Ramsay could kill his father and become Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, albeit temporarily.  Jon Arryn, Ned and Joffrey all knew about Gendry, so it was either written down somewhere, or accepted as truth.  Either way, if the reigning king/queen decrees that Gendry is legit and a lord, then he's legit and a lord/warden. With Robert being dead along with his "heirs", and Stannis and Renly dead without living heirs,  who is around to contest it or say otherwise?

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1 minute ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

I think what we are forgetting here is that a royal decree trumps all, right?  Was Ramsay documented somewhere as being Roose Bolton's bastard?  I don't remember having seen that anywhere.  Yet, Joffrey issued a decree legitimizing Ramsay, just so Ramsay could kill his father and become Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, albeit temporarily.  Jon Arryn, Ned and Joffrey all knew about Gendry, so it was either written down somewhere, or accepted as truth.  Either way, if the reigning king/queen decrees that Gendry is legit and a lord, then he's legit and a lord/warden. With Robert being dead along with his "heirs", and Stannis and Renly dead without living heirs,  who is around to contest it or say otherwise?

On the flip side of things, Joffrey was King despite being Jaime and Cersei's bastard. Many of the smallfolk eventually began to realise that Joffrey wasn't Robert's true born child, and they eventually turned on him. But he remained King despite it all.

With bastards, there is always going to be question marks over their true parentage. But Jon was accepted and believed to be Ned's bastard because Ned said so. If, say, Daenerys, as future Queen, decides to announce that Gendry is going to be legitimised as Gendry Baratheon, son of Robert Baratheon, it is far more likely that people are going to take the Queen's word for it than start questioning whether it is true or not. Especially since he is meant to look a lot like Robert. I know Mark Addy and Joe Dempsie do not look a like, but the characters are said to resemble one another in the books.

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16 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

I think what we are forgetting here is that a royal decree trumps all, right?  Was Ramsay documented somewhere as being Roose Bolton's bastard?  I don't remember having seen that anywhere.  Yet, Joffrey issued a decree legitimizing Ramsay, just so Ramsay could kill his father and become Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, albeit temporarily.  Jon Arryn, Ned and Joffrey all knew about Gendry, so it was either written down somewhere, or accepted as truth.  Either way, if the reigning king/queen decrees that Gendry is legit and a lord, then he's legit and a lord/warden. With Robert being dead along with his "heirs", and Stannis and Renly dead without living heirs,  who is around to contest it or say otherwise?

The point is, a royal decree has to be based on something.  Sure, in this fictional setting, Daenerys (if she wins the throne) may legitimize Gendry.  Sillier things have happened on G.O.T.

I think you're both taking this far more seriously than I am boys.

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1 minute ago, Tywinelle said:

The point is, a royal decree has to be based on something.  Sure, in this fictional setting, Daenerys (if she wins the throne) may legitimize Gendry.  Sillier things have happened on G.O.T.

I think you're both taking this far more seriously than I am boys.

But it would be based on the word of Ned Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Davos Seaworth and presumably Jon, who seemed to believe it easily enough when Gendry told him that he was Robert's son. I doubt there will ever be hardcore evidence; they'll likely have to go on word of mouth. That's if it happens at all. Gendry could be killed off. I just think the show will want to bring back House Baratheon, as it was one of the four main houses at the start of the show.

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Not sure if Gendry cares about getting legitimized really. He has no experience of being the head of a house, and I doubt he wants to be either.

Put a hammer in his hand, let him fight beside Jon, and if the Lord of Light is willing, let him end up with Arya, and I'd say his storyarc is completed.

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I think Gendry will end up being legitimized (the show may not even bother with this) and given Storm's End since the show cut Edric Storm and have already given some of his storyline to Gendry.

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I agree with Gendry being legitimized but why do we need to wait for Dany?  Jon is King in the North.  He can legitimize Gendry whenever he wants to. 

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He might have many roles:

-As a warrior, fighting in the last wars

-As a smith helping to make weapons

-Something related to the Baratheon lineage

-As Arya's future, as a friend and/or romance in s8 or endgame

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Posted (edited)

It's Arya related imo.

In his re-appearance episode they used him being Robert's bastard as a way to introduce him again. On top of that he dropped his armoerer shop, picked up the warhammer with Baratheon sigil. Since he didn't want to be an armorer and couldn't get away from it ASAP, I'd say you can therefore scratch the "smith role".

So, it seemed his role would be Baratheon related, exactly as it did in S1 when Ned met him. However, I'd say Beyond the Wall "hammered it in" (pun intended) that's not the answer either. He was asked to give his hammer away and eventually the Hound threw it aside on the rock island. The hammer either sank to the bottom of the ice lake or still lies there on that rock island. So, no, he's not in the story to be the new Baratheon of Storm's End either.

In 7.5 Gendry also introduced himself to Jon as if wanting to be his bro. And initially he walks with Jon and Tormund during the bro-trip beyod the wall in 7.6. But he falls back after Tormund starts talking making do with whose around if there aren't any living women, looking at him as if he's a weirdo. So, we can scrap bro-romance. He isn't in the story to be Jon's buddy, like Ned was Robert's buddy.

He then walks with the Bro-hood, saying how he wanted to be one of the Bro-hood, but they sold him to the first witch. The Hound tells him to stop winging and at the end of that he's well alone. That bro-hood is a band of warriors. But Gendry doesn't really become a part of it. He's a "good lad" to pat on the shoulder. So, we can scratch Gendry's role as being a warrior.

Joe Dempsie mentioned in the HBO feature about the set and the filming of Beyond the Wall how Gendry's searching for "family" to belong to. Now that word should ring a bell, as it is one of the things that Arya says to him when he decides to join the BwB in S3: I could be your family. To which he then replied: you'd be m'lady.

There's stuff in the dialogue to Gendry and to Thoros in this episode that connects to Acorn Hall scene and dialogue in the books. But I'll leave that for the moment. I'll just point out three glaring parallels.

1. Gendry's told to run to Eastwatch because he's the fastest in order to send a raven. And he makes the most unbelievable race-feat setting the Planetos record for marathons for all time. Has there been another physical impossible feat made by a character? Ah yes, Arya doing her Braavos parcours last season. 

2. There are only two characters who "winge" about the past with the "wrong" that present day allies once did: Gendry and Arya.

3. We saw Gendry smash the faces in of two Gold Cloaks with his hammer. Meanwhile Arya is into cutting faces from people. You could say that Gendry's hammertime would help Arya off taking faces, for he can smash them to pulp and make them unsuable to her.

So, his role imo is Arya-related, and imo in a romantic sense, for better or for worse.

You can ask yourself how's that gonna work out? Well, Arya is curious about what lies west of Westeros. And there's this 1000 ship fleet that will have some role to play in S8 and might be handy for an Exodus. Her wolf was named Nymeria after all, and WF isn't really Nymeria's home anymore. In such a scenario Storm's End and House Baratheon is of no importance. But he can row ;)

Edited by sweetsunray

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20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's Arya related imo.

In his re-appearance episode they used him being Robert's bastard as a way to introduce him again. On top of that he dropped his armoerer shop, picked up the warhammer with Baratheon sigil. Since he didn't want to be an armorer and couldn't get away from it ASAP, I'd say you can therefore scratch the "smith role".

So, it seemed his role would be Baratheon related, exactly as it did in S1 when Ned met him. However, I'd say Beyond the Wall "hammered it in" (pun intended) that's not the answer either. He was asked to give his hammer away and eventually the Hound threw it aside on the rock island. The hammer either sank to the bottom of the ice lake or still lies there on that rock island. So, no, he's not in the story to be the new Baratheon of Storm's End either.

In 7.5 Gendry also introduced himself to Jon as if wanting to be his bro. And initially he walks with Jon and Tormund during the bro-trip beyod the wall in 7.6. But he falls back after Tormund starts talking making do with whose around if there aren't any living women, looking at him as if he's a weirdo. So, we can scrap bro-romance. He isn't in the story to be Jon's buddy, like Ned was Robert's buddy.

He then walks with the Bro-hood, saying how he wanted to be one of the Bro-hood, but they sold him to the first witch. The Hound tells him to stop winging and at the end of that he's well alone. That bro-hood is a band of warriors. But Gendry doesn't really become a part of it. He's a "good lad" to pat on the shoulder. So, we can scratch Gendry's role as being a warrior.

Good analysis on the different parts of the episode!

I had forgotten that the hammer was lost in the midle of the battle?!

What you say makes sense in terms of abandoning his smith's status (the scene supports it), and the "not-bro" team, and losing the hammer. I really like how you described it.

Also, the not living women being near (and those around...:o), and him as not wanting to be part of the team in that moment, so basically saying no to "no living women near" (there is) and also to the other weird thing.

The good lad for no warrior....I could buy it as well!

However....

I'm not so sure if he is not gonna have a small role as smith or warrior. There is a famous SSM question about his abilities in regards to working Valyrian steel and Martin said that it was an interesting question, so it could happen in the books, why not in the show?. Considering that we just saw that they are working in the mine, Maybe he would have an scene or two helping with the weapons, -though not his main role.

As for the warrior thing.....I think he'll do something! Maybe they even kill him (I hope not;)), but I think almost all the secondary characters will have some kind of warrior role (not much screentime as it will be for Jon) in the last season.

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Joe Dempsie mentioned in the HBO feature about the set and the filming of Beyond the Wall how Gendry's searching for "family" to belong to. Now that word should ring a bell, as it is one of the things that Arya says to him when he decides to join the BwB in S3: I could be your family. To which he then replied: you'd be m'lady.

There's stuff in the dialogue to Gendry and to Thoros in this episode that connects to Acorn Hall scene and dialogue in the books. But I'll leave that for the moment. I'll just point out three glaring parallels.

1. Gendry's told to run to Eastwatch because he's the fastest in order to send a raven. And he makes the most unbelievable race-feat setting the Planetos record for marathons for all time. Has there been another physical impossible feat made by a character? Ah yes, Arya doing her Braavos parcours last season. 

 

I had exactly the same thought (comparing the race to the parkouring) when I was watching the episode the second time!

ABout the family dialogue from season 3. It's really interesting, because I also think that is what Gendry is looking for. Bryan Cogman said that the scene had only the obvious meaning of he not being able to be Arya's family due to his status (and that the m'lady thing was about that, I also bought it this way, and he said it was just this) but I wondered if it could work as a double meaning or as foreshadowing that their status would not be a problem in their future. There is a podcast in which the writer also doesn't discard the idea that Arya was feeling romantic feelings on that time.

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

2. There are only two characters who "winge" about the past with the "wrong" that present day allies once did: Gendry and Arya.

I don't remember this detail. Which scenes are you referring to?

 

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

3. We saw Gendry smash the faces in of two Gold Cloaks with his hammer. Meanwhile Arya is into cutting faces from people. You could say that Gendry's hammertime would help Arya off taking faces, for he can smash them to pulp and make them unsuable to her.

So, his role imo is Arya-related, and imo in a romantic sense, for better or for worse.

You can ask yourself how's that gonna work out? Well, Arya is curious about what lies west of Westeros. And there's this 1000 ship fleet that will have some role to play in S8 and might be handy for an Exodus. Her wolf was named Nymeria after all, and WF isn't really Nymeria's home anymore. In such a scenario Storm's End and House Baratheon is of no importance. But he can row ;)

Hehe, I think I would not like the face theme to be linked to both of them but they are definately not hesitant when it comes to surviving and killing if necessary.

I like the Exodus idea, and I think it would be an amazing ending for her arc.. I have thought about it since Arya said that line of "West of Westeros" in season 6 with Lady Crane, though....I still think it's too beautiful for it to be true.

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Posted (edited)

29 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't remember this detail. Which scenes are you referring to?

Well, Gendry already mentioned in epi 5 how Thoros and Beric sold him to a witch, but it was decided to unite as a team. On the hike beyond the wall, Gendry confronts them again about it. And then Sandor tells him to stop winging (aka complaining) about it, because they're all here now for the same cause. 

Arya brings Sansa up the letter to Robb and Catelyn to surrender about 'beloved Joffrey' and her being there on the platform with a pretty dress and hair, when she knows Sansa wishes she did in fact had been the one who killed Joffrey. Sandor would tell Arya that she's winging too, and that they're sisters and should stick together against LF.

Hence, both are "winging" in the episode, so to speak and actually the sole ones to do so.

29 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Hehe, I think I would not like the face theme to be linked to both of them but they are definately not hesitant when it comes to surviving and killing if necessary.

Well, it's linked, but also in a way that Gendry's bleudgeoning of someone's face barrs Arya from taking and using a face. An indication that he may be the sole one who one the one hand understands her urge to go AWOL to take someone's face, and also the sole one can stop her from doing so. With Gendry around she's not taking faces again, basically. This fits the S3 scene when she rushes to attack and kill Sandor herself after the fight with Beric, but he runs after her, grabs her and stops her from doing so. She shows no anger or resentment about that afterwards.

29 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I'm not so sure if he is not gonna have a small role as smith or warrior.

I agree. We'll still see him fight, maybe even see him work in WF's smithy, but it's not his main role or purpose.

29 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

There is a famous SSM question about his abilities in regards to working Valyrian steel and Martin said that it was an interesting question, so it could happen in the books, why not in the show?

I understand the emotional wish for Ice to be reforged, but I honestly think it's part of the sacrifice necessary to have more VS swords and that George is not going to have Ice reforged. We're not getting Robb or Ned Stark back either. Gendry had gotten only his piece of normal steel to make a sword (and hadn't even started yet) before he had to flee Tobho Mott's shop. So, I seriously doubt that Gendry in fact knows how to reforge VS at all in the books. 

Quote

I like the Exodus idea, and I think it would be an amazing ending for her arc.. I have thought about it since Arya said that line of "West of Westeros" in season 6 with Lady Crane, though....I still think it's too beautiful for it to be true.

Well, it also implies disaster if people have to choose exodus, like the Rhoynish once had to.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, Gendry already mentioned in epi 5 how Thoros and Beric sold him to a witch, but it was decided to unite as a team. On the hike beyond the wall, Gendry confronts them again about it. And then Sandor tells him to stop winging (aka complaining) about it, because they're all here now for the same cause. 

Arya brings Sansa up the letter to Robb and Catelyn to surrender about 'beloved Joffrey' and her being there on the platform with a pretty dress and hair, when she knows Sansa wishes she did in fact had been the one who killed Joffrey. Sandor would tell Arya that she's winging too, and that they're sisters and should stick together against LF.

Hence, both are "winging" in the episode, so to speak and actually the sole ones to do so.

Oh thanks, that makes more sense now that I see the parallels, good catch!

 

Quote

Well, it's linked, but also in a way that Gendry's bleudgeoning of someone's face barrs Arya from taking and using a face. An indication that he may be the sole one who one the one hand understands her urge to go AWOL to take someone's face, and also the sole one can stop her from doing so. With Gendry around she's not taking faces again, basically. This fits the S3 scene when she rushes to attack and kill Sandor herself after the fight with Beric, but he runs after her, grabs her and stops her from doing so. She shows no anger or resentment about that afterwards.

Yes, it could be. Hehas done it before. I honestly don't know who else apart from him or Jon would stop her current goals.

Quote

I agree. We'll still see him fight, maybe even see him work in WF's smithy, but it's not his main role or purpose.

I understand the emotional wish for Ice to be reforged, but I honestly think it's part of the sacrifice necessary to have more VS swords and that George is not going to have Ice reforged. We're not getting Robb or Ned Stark back either. Gendry had gotten only his piece of normal steel to make a sword (and hadn't even started yet) before he had to flee Tobho Mott's shop. So, I seriously doubt that Gendry in fact knows how to reforge VS at all in the books. 

 

Yep, as for Valyrian Steel, based on the show, I was thinking more on Heartsbane (I think they also spoiled that this sword will be important in the books). At this time I think it is to big for someone to actually use it effectively. Or maybe a big guy?

I don't see Ice being reforged any time soon, in fact I think that it is very clear  that they chose both Brienne and Jaime to use the two swords that used to be Ice.  I suppose that Jaime will be an effective swordsman by s8.offscreen).

As for making other weapons, I'd love to see him (and also others) being involved in the construction of more weapons with the dragonglass of Dragonstone. It would be nice to watch filler.

Quote

Well, it also implies disaster if people have to choose exodus, like the Rhoynish once had to.

Yep, it does, although with a happy tone if people survive. But considering the HOTU visions that Dany had in s2, it could very well be that Westeros is hald destroyed, after all. We see what it looks as a mixture of snow and ashes in the iron throne, and we also have some visions from Bran (since s4) coming around from time to time-the shadows of dragons-that I think they are only one of the few parts of the future that the magic has revealed to Bran. It might not end very well.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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