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Jon Snow is the real Aegon.


Raventhal

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2 hours ago, Romaine3 said:

Great use of the text to illustrate your point, however, naming both of your sons Aegon is kind of superfluous and confusing right? Let's theorize instead that Jon names his firstborn son Aegon to get us to #7. Or is there a flaw in my logic somewhere that I'm missing?

It would be confusing if they both lived. I'd say he either knew that one was likely to die, or intended to disinherit the first one. Could be a sort of Blackfyre 2.0, trying to let the crown pass to someone other than the heir apparent (regardless of bastardy/legitimacy).

But I'm far from convinced that Jon's real name is Aegon. We are all just assuming that the child was named prior to birth. Lyanna comes with Northern themes of wildness and rejection of convention - I would not be surprised if she felt similar to Gilly and was hesitant to name a child whose survival was at such risk. There is an echo of the Pisswater Prince and Jon in the baby swap at the Wall, so I'd expect thematic and character similarity.

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38 minutes ago, cgrav said:

It would be confusing if they both lived. I'd say he either knew that one was likely to die, or intended to disinherit the first one. Could be a sort of Blackfyre 2.0, trying to let the crown pass to someone other than the heir apparent (regardless of bastardy/legitimacy).

But I'm far from convinced that Jon's real name is Aegon. We are all just assuming that the child was named prior to birth. Lyanna comes with Northern themes of wildness and rejection of convention - I would not be surprised if she felt similar to Gilly and was hesitant to name a child whose survival was at such risk. There is an echo of the Pisswater Prince and Jon in the baby swap at the Wall, so I'd expect thematic and character similarity.

Very good point. If it is revealed that Jon is named Aegon in the books, then I pray that the rumored GoT open world RPG is indeed created so I can slay Rhaegar myself for his insolent behavior! Let's pray Lyanna names the child in her last few moments. A scenario like that is a much more befitting way to end the tragic sequence of events that leads to her demise.

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10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree. If Jon has another name I'd rather it's Rhaegar and not yet another Aegon. But if I'm going w/ what I would really, really like, then he will keep the name he has. It's so perfect,

Jon Snow, King of Winter. :)

 

Agreed with all. Even if his name is Aegon (or I guess if it's something else) he grew up Jon Snow! Maybe, maaaybee he'd be ok with Jon Targaryen, but even that seems unlikely. A name change like that would have to coincide with a personality change. Not just for a turning point in the narrative, but for realz. If I grew up believing my name was Jack Thompson and found out at age 20ish it was really Lucious Garamond, and decided to go with the new one, there's no way I could keep acting like Jack Thompson. I'd need an entirely new personality...

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Just now, Joey Crows said:

Agreed with all. Even if his name is Aegon (or I guess if it's something else) he grew up Jon Snow! Maybe, maaaybee he'd be ok with Jon Targaryen, but even that seems unlikely. A name change like that would have to coincide with a personality change. Not just for a turning point in the narrative, but for realz. If I grew up believing my name was Jack Thompson and found out at age 20ish it was really Lucious Garamond, and decided to go with the new one, there's no way I could keep acting like Jack Thompson. I'd need an entirely new personality...

That's kinda mental but it's how I see it as well! :D

And, in a way, it is honouring where he came from, how he grew up, Ned, and all that jazz. :)

(I also don't think Jon will sit the IT, nor do I think he will want to. Same for Winterfell/North, once he learns about his parents he will be free of his need to be "accepted"/acknowledged. He will be the King of Winter - he sort of already is - and Winterfell will go to one of his cousins.)

and btw great avi, C&H style, love it.

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10 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

But in that instant, as he twisted, the opening was there. Jon planted and pivoted. The ranger was leaning away, and for an instant it seemed that Jon's slash had not touched him. Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man's throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell.

GRRM established that rubies can be seen, represent or symbolized as blood.

"Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince..." - ACOK Dany, HoTU vision

"Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.” -  AFFC Brienne

Rubies here represent Rhaegar's royal blood.  Westeros have crowned five Aegons and "we are all waiting for the seventh."  In order for a seventh to appear, there has to be a sixth (fAegon).  That's why a lot of R+L= legitimate Jon fans believe Jon might very well be that seventh king named Aegon.  Now, to his companions, he will still be Jon.

Could Rhaegar's ruby plated armor be smashed into more than seven? of course.  However, do not dismiss GRRM's intent (for a purpose later to be revealed) in why and how he worded it the way he did.

Thank you! I referenced this same passage in a Reddit thread a couple days ago where people were arguing that there was no foreshadowing in the books for aegon being his real name, though I was too lazy to dig up the actual quotes. I've believed jons name is aegon for some time now, hence my username. We can also look to Danys vision of Rhaegar. I know grrm has confirmed he was speaking to Elia, but his statement describes Jon, not aegon VI, and visions/prophecies always get it at least half right. Plus we know how big the number seven is in religion, it would make a lot of sense for aa/tptwp to be named after the most famous targ of all time, and be the seventh of his name. It's kinda like the lord commander thing that's being discussed on another thread, we are so close to number 1000, there's a good chance there will be #1000 in the books and he'll be a badass, like Jaime. I figured jons name had to be aegon or Aemon, the fact that the show is saying its aegon pretty much confirms it in my mind.

also, I agree with those who say Rhaegar most likely named Jon, not lyanna. If his name was Ned or something I wouldn't be so sure, but aegon.. That's Rhaegar trying to fulfill prophecy.

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's kinda mental but it's how I see it as well! :D

And, in a way, it is honouring where he came from, how he grew up, Ned, and all that jazz. :)

(I also don't think Jon will sit the IT, nor do I think he will want to. Same for Winterfell/North, once he learns about his parents he will be free of his need to be "accepted"/acknowledged. He will be the King of Winter - he sort of already is - and Winterfell will go to one of his cousins.)

and btw great avi, C&H style, love it.

C&H foreva!! Haha. Thanks :)

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I guess as a piece of foreshadowing, Rhaegars rubies could point to the seventh Aegon, but they could easily mean something else. And I still don't think he would name both his sons Aegon. It's unlikely doing so for prophecy because if the prophecy gave a name or he would never have once thought it was referring to him, nor would Aemon believe it was referring to Daenerys. I have to say it's entirely possible I just don't like the idea of him being named Aegon and that could be colouring my thoughts, but it still doesn't sound right to me.

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On 31/08/2017 at 11:06 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

So the Golden Company is going to turn their back on their ancestors' support for the Blackfyres, forget their hatred of Targs for taking their lands and titles away for fighting with Blackfyres, and bend the knee to Rhaegar's supposed Targ son, which means literally handing Targs the victory in this civil squabble? Right.

   They don't hate the Targaryen considering that the called BlackFyres are Targaryens. Daemon Waters was legitimized by King Aegon IV and receives from him the BlackFyre Sword. He was legitimized and so he and his descendants have rights for the Iron Throne. The Golden Company always thought for them; true. But after five generations, the Blackfyre Pretenders had all been killed. The Targaryens called BlackFyre are no more. Yes, it is true,  the Golden Company would not change "sides" if they (BlackFyes) were still alive, but they are gone.

   So by staying behind the real Aegon they can achieve what they never, ever did: Victory!

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6 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   They don't hate the Targaryen considering that the called BlackFyres are Targaryens. Daemon Waters was legitimized by King Aegon IV and receives from him the BlackFyre Sword. He was legitimized and so he and his descendants have rights for the Iron Throne. The Golden Company always thought for them; true. But after five generations, the Blackfyre Pretenders had all been killed. The Targaryens called BlackFyre are no more. Yes, it is true,  the Golden Company would not change "sides" if they (BlackFyes) were still alive, but they are gone.

   So by staying behind the real Aegon they can achieve what they never, ever did: Victory!

The Blackfyres are only gone if you assume the new Aegon is a Targ. Him being a Blackfyre makes more sense for their backing him, considering he is penniless right now. Wasn't the victory Blackfyres always wanted against the Targs?

It's a civil squabble. And as I mentioned in my original post, it doesn't matter if new Argon is a Blackfyre or not. He is still a Targ. That's why I said Dany will accept him back into the family, as the real Targs they have always been. It could also be that he is not a Targ or a Blackfyre, just a Valyrian-looking kid from Lys. His story fits really well into Dany's mummer's dragon prophesy, so he's probably not Aegon VI, the baby that died. 

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To the OP: I agree that most of the "Aegon speech" Varys gives seems to fit Jon Snow at least as well or better than (F)Aegon. Varys also compares Aegon and Tommen and what being a king means to them (duty versus right). It reminds me of another speech, the one in which Lord Commander Mormont compares King's Robb's future and Jon Snow's future, predicting glory, luxury, family and success (mainly rights) for Robb the King and a spartan life of serving and obscurity (duty) for Jon Snow, man of the Night's Watch. If we compare the two speeches, we can notice certain similarities in terms of duty and hardship between the life of a man of the Night's Watch (in explicit contrast to a king's life) and Aegon's life (described by Varys as the ideal way to educate a future king). So, yes, there is something notable here in this respect. 

It's hard to tell what Vars wants though. I can't really buy the idea that he is doing it all "for the children". (His "little birds" are children, too.) Why is he talking to Kevan so much? I understand that there is not much point in lying to a man he is going to kill in a minute or two, but I also fail to see why he needs to tell him the truth. Why bother to speak at all? (Plot reasons aside.) Does he want Kevan to "understand" in his last moment that it all had to be  - for the greater good? Come on...

 

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On 30/08/2017 at 9:48 PM, Makk said:

If you believe the three heads are Aegon (who I think is fake), Daenerys, and Jon, you need to answer why Rhaegar believes only one more is needed. Neither Daenerys or Jon are born at that stage, so that would be two more. He is much more likely thinking the three heads are his three children. Rhaenys, Aegon, and one more

  Exactly. Prince Rhaegar is mistaken about some things and right about the three heads. He "knows" about the 3 heads and believes them to be his 3 children. So one more is needed. The third would be Jon, but because Rhaenys is de fact dead, the gods have chosen Daenerys as the third. She is the mother of Dragons. 

   For example, Melisandre (Red Priestess) saw a young lady arriving with a horse at the Watch and she told Jon that it was her sister. The vision was indeed true a girl did arrived at Castle Black but it was Alys Karstark. She was wrong about the person arriving but the vision showed her indeed the future. When Melisandre tells Jon about the knives stabbing him she saw the truth. The same way Prince Rhaegar was right about the three (3) heads. Indeed 3 people but he is wrong about all of them being his children. 2 are and 1 (Daenerys) is not. :)

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On 31/08/2017 at 11:41 AM, IceFire125 said:

"Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince..." - ACOK Dany, HoTU vision

"Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.” -  AFFC Brienne

Rubies here represent Rhaegar's royal blood.  Westeros have crowned five Aegons and "we are all waiting for the seventh."  In order for a seventh to appear, there has to be a sixth (fAegon).  That's why a lot of R+L= legitimate Jon fans believe Jon might very well be that seventh king named Aegon.  Now, to his companions, he will still be Jon.

Could Rhaegar's ruby plated armor be smashed into more than seven? of course.  However, do not dismiss GRRM's intent (for a purpose later to be revealed) in why and how he worded it the way he did.

    Excellent analytic parallel thinking. Congratulations. Indeed it would make another Aegon coming after the VI the VII who would be Mr. Jon the Snowy Bastard of Winterfell, the Great (Targ + Stark) Bastard of Westeros Aegon VII. Cool indeed. I do hope you are right.

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8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

It's hard to tell what Vars wants though. I can't really buy the idea that he is doing it all "for the children". (His "little birds" are children, too.) Why is he talking to Kevan so much? I understand that there is not much point in lying to a man he is going to kill in a minute or two, but I also fail to see why he needs to tell him the truth. Why bother to speak at all? (Plot reasons aside.) Does he want Kevan to "understand" in his last moment that it all had to be  - for the greater good? Come on...

I believe that after all those years of restraint, Varys wants to gloat at least a wee bit now that his plans are coming to fruition. He is so clever, he has fooled so many people, groomed his perfect prince... damn, it must be so hard not to bask in his successes! 

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4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I believe that after all those years of restraint, Varys wants to gloat at least a wee bit now that his plans are coming to fruition. He is so clever, he has fooled so many people, groomed his perfect prince... damn, it must be so hard not to bask in his successes! 

That's a good point. 

About Jon Snow's original name: For the record, I don't expect Jon to change his first name due to any revelations, but finding out what his name would / could have been has potential for symbolism, therefore it's an interesting question. 

I'm still not convinced that it should be Aegon (of course, it's possible), nor do I really like the idea. Because of all the various Aegons, this name has connotations that I wouldn't like to associate Jon Snow with. Most of all, it is the first Aegon, the Conqueror, who brought dragons - fire and blood - to Westeros in order to conquer a kingdom for himself. When Jon was a child, his idol was another conqueror, the Young Dragon. However, he grew out of those ideas and he grew up to be a defender, a protector, which is, in my opinion, the polar opposite of a conqueror. Therefore I don't think that the conqueror's name would really suit him. I know there are other Aegons, but only one I could somewhat associate with Jon Snow: Aegon V, Egg, who spent a large part of his youth among common people instead of a palace, away from his family, but I'm still not sure it's enough to make the name symbolically the best possible Targaryen name for Jon.

I confess I still like the theory that his original name might have been Aemon. There are possible subtle hints about that in the books, which I really like. (It also seems to be a tradition for an Aegon to have a brother called Aemon, and Rhaegar already had a son called Aegon.) Besides, this name would associate Jon with the Dragon Knight (who might or might not have been his real ancestor instead of Aegon the Unworthy) and with Maester Aemon, who was one of his mentors and the first (and so far the only) Targaryen he has met. The Dragon Knight is obviously associated with courage, nobility, loyalty, protection, self-sacrifice, youth - and fire. He was a Fire Aemon. Maester Aemon is associated with wisdom, loyalty, longevity - and ice (the Wall). He was the Ice Aemon, so to speak. In the weirwood grove Jon prays for wisdom to know what must be done and for courage to do it, and the two famous Aemons before him represent just these two qualities. Therefore the Aemon name could symbolically associate him with the courage of the Dragon Knight and the wisdom of Maester Aemon. After the Fire Aemon and the Ice Aemon, Jon could be the Ice-and-Fire Aemon, which would be quite fitting. In addition, since we already have a secret Targaryen (Blackfyre?) called Aegon, I wouldn't like Jon to turn out to be another Aegon. It would emphasize similarities when they are, in fact, rather different. Aegon is all about conquest. Jon wants to protect the realm. Having the same Targaryen name would blur this important difference. Aegon and Aemon, however...

"Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

It's an interesting idea about the seven Aegons. Another theory I have read about Rhaegar's six rubies and the seventh one is that in the books there have been six characters who are the descendants of Aerys II and Rhaella (according to the prophecy, the Prince That Was Promised would be born of their line): Rhaegar, Daenerys, Viserys, Aegon, Rhaenys and Rhaego and the seventh descendant hasn't been "found" yet. Of course, this theory disregards all of Rhaella's children who died in infancy, which, however, makes sense as they are not really part of the story as characters. (Rhaego is, due to Dany's visions and dreams about him and because of the prophecy). I guess both theories could work...

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