Satoshi Takeda

Fickle Characters

47 posts in this topic

I am sure many of you have noticed the inconsistency in how the characters think and behave from one episode to the next.  Is it due to excessive fan service again?  I think it is one of the reasons or causes.  One other reason: the show is not written by one person so there will be inconsistency.  The books have no inconsistencies in the characters because it is written by one man.  Let me give you some examples of what I mean by fickle characters,

  1. Arya.  She goes from full on psycho at the twins.  Not too long after she lets the Lannister soldiers live.  She goes from psycho killer to reasonable traveler.  Then she goes to question Sansa's loyalty and her character.  Which is a reasonable thing to do.  Let's face it.  Sansa has a lot to answer for.  This is reasonable sister asking the tough questions.  Then we find out she's collecting souvenirs from her victims.  She collects their faces!!!  Now, if that's not full on insane then nothing is. 
  2. Theon.  He is one of the few well written characters on the show.  And it's because the writers don't have to worry what Theon's fans will think so they have kept his character consistent.  It's consistent with Theon's character to lose it and revert to the broken man that he is when he jumped overboard instead of helping Yara.  Theon fighting Euron would have been inconsistent and a joke.  I will argue with anyone who was disappointed with Theon's cowardice.  That is consistent with a broken man.
  3. Varys.  Why in hell is Varys so concerned about the execution of the Tarlys when it was him who brought Elaria Sand and her girls into Dany's camp.  The Sands are the most violent people on the show outside of Slaver's Bay.  He didn't seem bothered then.  So why the sudden weakness now.  He was the one who advised Aerys of Rhaegar's possible plot to usurp the throne.  He's not Mr. Nice Guy and so it is uncharacteristic of him to have reservations about a completely just execution.
  4. Sandor.  This dude is afraid of fire.  So afraid he froze at the burning bear wight.  This same dude jumps on the back of a dragon and flies away. 

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Posted (edited)

Do you literally not know how the Faceless men magic works?  You can't change faces without a face which is used in a blood ritual to adhere the face on seamlessly.  What bothers you about this after a season of her working to learn how to do this.  Did you expect her to not use this skill?

Varys doesn't make sense anymore because they changed his motivation for everything he did from the books.  Sandor got character development and worked on his fear of fire. 

Edited by Darksnider05

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59 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

Do you literally not know how the Faceless men magic works?  You can't change faces without a face which is used in a blood ritual to adhere the face on seamlessly.  What bothers you about this after a season of her working to learn how to do this.  Did you expect her to not use this skill?

Varys doesn't make sense anymore because they changed his motivation for everything he did from the books.  Sandor got character development and worked on his fear of fire. 

I agree with you on the FM. This is how she was trained. The faces are used to their advantage. But I also agree with OP on the other characters.

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2 hours ago, Darksnider05 said:

Do you literally not know how the Faceless men magic works?  You can't change faces without a face which is used in a blood ritual to adhere the face on seamlessly.  What bothers you about this after a season of her working to learn how to do this.  Did you expect her to not use this skill?

Varys doesn't make sense anymore because they changed his motivation for everything he did from the books.  Sandor got character development and worked on his fear of fire. 

And Sandor got over this paralyzing phobia in ten seconds! 

Arya is just plain out creepy and gross.  The FM are evil and so is Arya.   Preston Jacobs (Youtube reviewer) came out and called her insane. 

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Posted (edited)

42 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

And Sandor got over this paralyzing phobia in ten seconds! 

Arya is just plain out creepy and gross.  The FM are evil and so is Arya.   Preston Jacobs (Youtube reviewer) came out and called her insane. 

Dude I don't care about Preston Jacobs or anyone who does reviews on youtube.  Literally by the standards of Westeros she's normal and that's actually what's bad Sandor explained Westeros years ago in the books and in the show.  It's run by killers and ruled by killers. 

Quote

Sandor Clegane (to Sansa): Stannis is a killer. The Lannisters are killers. Your father was a killer. Your brother is a killer. Your sons will be killers someday. The world is built by killers. So you'd better get used to looking at them.

 

Edited by Darksnider05

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They seem fickle because they are being drawn out and prevented from completing their arcs. Show should have finished this season.

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The team running the show are good at marketing.  I can't say they're good at writing the screenplays.  Best to bring in consultants.  I nominate Elio and Linda if it's something they would care to do.  They will do a great job and they can help Brian Cogman. 

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5 hours ago, Satoshi Takeda said:

I am sure many of you have noticed the inconsistency in how the characters think and behave from one episode to the next.  Is it due to excessive fan service again?  I think it is one of the reasons or causes.  One other reason: the show is not written by one person so there will be inconsistency.  The books have no inconsistencies in the characters because it is written by one man.  Let me give you some examples of what I mean by fickle characters,

4. Sandor.  This dude is afraid of fire.  So afraid he froze at the burning bear wight.  This same dude jumps on the back of a dragon and flies away. 

 

Just one point about this; Sandor, perhaps the most irreverent man in Westeros also saw a vision in the flames that convinced him of the dead and the need to continue north. He clearly hasn't changed his feelings about fire ; he turned away when Beric burned Thoros. Also, he's ever been a practical man, who could surely have seen that if getting out on the back of a dragon was the whole way to do it, then he'd have to do it. I don't see being on a dragon as being at odds with his character. That's Sandor being practical Sandor.  

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How about Jon. Words fail on me the assasination of his character. 

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Arya isn't acting like someone who's lived a hard life and been made into a reluctant but tough person.  She's gone psychotic.  Watch her in the spar with Brianne, she's showing off and using live steel.  She isn't 'surviving' she's treating others like toys.  Her one moment of humanity this season was a pop star cameo done just for Masie Williams.  The next scene she's treating Hot Pie like cold shit just to look badass to possible the only person in Westeros who doesn't care.  She talks about cutting Sansa's face off while brandishing a knife then plays it off like half a joke and half a 'I'm not scared I could do it anytime'.

They took a character that did have an interesting path and destroyed it for the sake of fan service.

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The dragon wasn't breathing fire while he rode. He's afraid of the sight of fire, not of the sight of dragons.

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1 hour ago, The Knight in Motley said:

Arya isn't acting like someone who's lived a hard life and been made into a reluctant but tough person.  She's gone psychotic.  Watch her in the spar with Brianne, she's showing off and using live steel.  She isn't 'surviving' she's treating others like toys.  Her one moment of humanity this season was a pop star cameo done just for Masie Williams.  The next scene she's treating Hot Pie like cold shit just to look badass to possible the only person in Westeros who doesn't care.  She talks about cutting Sansa's face off while brandishing a knife then plays it off like half a joke and half a 'I'm not scared I could do it anytime'.

They took a character that did have an interesting path and destroyed it for the sake of fan service.

Lol dont you get it. The knife and faces thing with Sansa was NOT a threat.

And yes she was a bit Hound-like with Hot Pie and I think that was deliberate as killing changes you. However, she wasnt completely cold to him. She even put her hand on his shoulder and said to take care of himself and not get killed and there was some warmth in her doing that.

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1. I think what we saw with Sansa and Arya was a consequence of flawed storytelling more than anything else. There clearly was a lot of interacting between Arya, Sansa and Bran that happened offscreen. I think the dagger was a clue to Sansa about Littlefinger, not a threat. Or perhaps the whole scene was acted in hopes Littlefinger or his spies would see it. 

She executed the Freys that were responsible for the murder of her mother and brother, then she didn't kill Lannister soldiers that hadn't done anything to her, doesn't seem "fickle", unless we count her not killing the Hound as "fickle" as well.

2.You name Theon of all people as "well written"? Ooookay...

3. Varys doesn't make sense because they cut out Aegon, nothing that can be done about it now. Nothing about the Sand Snakes ever made sense because their whole storyline was a failed, misguided, completely atrocious attempt at what two brodudes think "feminism" and "empowered women" are.

4.Sandor has been badly written since he has left King's Landing.

7 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Preston Jacobs (Youtube reviewer) came out and called her insane. 

So he finally has said something that wasn't complete horse shit? Good for him. Then again it's probably just like Nostradamos, if someone says a lot of confused horseshit they are bound to get something right, eventually.

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Posted (edited)

On 27.08.2017 at 9:46 PM, Satoshi Takeda said:

I am sure many of you have noticed the inconsistency in how the characters think and behave from one episode to the next.  Is it due to excessive fan service again?  I think it is one of the reasons or causes.  One other reason: the show is not written by one person so there will be inconsistency.  The books have no inconsistencies in the characters because it is written by one man.  Let me give you some examples of what I mean by fickle characters,

  1. Arya.  She goes from full on psycho at the twins.  Not too long after she lets the Lannister soldiers live.  She goes from psycho killer to reasonable traveler.  Then she goes to question Sansa's loyalty and her character.  Which is a reasonable thing to do.  Let's face it.  Sansa has a lot to answer for.  This is reasonable sister asking the tough questions.  Then we find out she's collecting souvenirs from her victims.  She collects their faces!!!  Now, if that's not full on insane then nothing is. 
  2. Theon.  He is one of the few well written characters on the show.  And it's because the writers don't have to worry what Theon's fans will think so they have kept his character consistent.  It's consistent with Theon's character to lose it and revert to the broken man that he is when he jumped overboard instead of helping Yara.  Theon fighting Euron would have been inconsistent and a joke.  I will argue with anyone who was disappointed with Theon's cowardice.  That is consistent with a broken man.
  3. Varys.  Why in hell is Varys so concerned about the execution of the Tarlys when it was him who brought Elaria Sand and her girls into Dany's camp.  The Sands are the most violent people on the show outside of Slaver's Bay.  He didn't seem bothered then.  So why the sudden weakness now.  He was the one who advised Aerys of Rhaegar's possible plot to usurp the throne.  He's not Mr. Nice Guy and so it is uncharacteristic of him to have reservations about a completely just execution.
  4. Sandor.  This dude is afraid of fire.  So afraid he froze at the burning bear wight.  This same dude jumps on the back of a dragon and flies away. 

1.Arya. Seing that not all Lannisters are bloodlust freaks and psychopaths she shares the meal with soldiers her age. A nice reference to "even the hounds deserve mercy" arc and "offered food and drink equals safety" arc. Arya is regaining her humanity. The Sansa interactions is a little game they play on Littlefinger.
2. Theon. People who deal with trauma can get triggered. This is very realistic. They can recover too. Theon is not a coward.
3. Varys. I suspect that Varys just like everyone is suspicious of Dany's fits of rage and burning people.
4. Sandor. It appears that he is overcoming his phobia. Not that the dragon was burning at the moment.

Edited by TwiceBorn

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I'd jump on the back of a dragon right away as well if I were faced with thousands of dead wights charging towards me.

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It's because while in the books the story is very much character driven and that is GRRM's approach to writing, the show is smooth more plot based. This is especially apparent now when the showrunners don't have all the character material to work with but just a list of plot points. Pretty much any interview with them you listen to its apparent that their writing process is to think of a cool scene and work backwards from there. This results in the characters being asked to fill different roles each week and in the lack of consistent character arcs.

Taking Arya as an example, they clearly wanted her to murder the Freys because *cool scene*, then they wanted a scene with Ed Sheeran and then they wanted to create some drama in Winterfell. Arya's character and motivation never came into it. She's not even the worst offender - Sansa was a different person in each of her scenes last season.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, of man and wolf said:

I'd jump on the back of a dragon right away as well if I were faced with thousands of dead wights charging towards me.

And if you're in that situation and your goal is to *avoid* fire, on dragonback is basically the place to be. Drogon is unlikely to try to burn himself.

 

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On 8/28/2017 at 4:38 PM, Orphalesion said:

 

1. I think what we saw with Sansa and Arya was a consequence of flawed storytelling more than anything else. There clearly was a lot of interacting between Arya, Sansa and Bran that happened offscreen. I think the dagger was a clue to Sansa about Littlefinger, not a threat. Or perhaps the whole scene was acted in hopes Littlefinger or his spies would see it. 

She executed the Freys that were responsible for the murder of her mother and brother, then she didn't kill Lannister soldiers that hadn't done anything to her, doesn't seem "fickle", unless we count her not killing the Hound as "fickle" as well.

2.You name Theon of all people as "well written"? Ooookay...

3. Varys doesn't make sense because they cut out Aegon, nothing that can be done about it now. Nothing about the Sand Snakes ever made sense because their whole storyline was a failed, misguided, completely atrocious attempt at what two brodudes think "feminism" and "empowered women" are.

4.Sandor has been badly written since he has left King's Landing.

So he finally has said something that wasn't complete horse shit? Good for him. Then again it's probably just like Nostradamos, if someone says a lot of confused horseshit they are bound to get something right, eventually.

I agree with most of this, with the exception of Sandor - not that I think the writing is exceptional by any means. 

Lmao at the bolded !

1 hour ago, Maid So Fair said:

And if you're in that situation and your goal is to *avoid* fire, on dragonback is basically the place to be. Drogon is unlikely to try to burn himself.

 

This. Exactly.

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On 8/29/2017 at 6:29 PM, Maid So Fair said:

It's because while in the books the story is very much character driven and that is GRRM's approach to writing, the show is smooth more plot based. This is especially apparent now when the showrunners don't have all the character material to work with but just a list of plot points. Pretty much any interview with them you listen to its apparent that their writing process is to think of a cool scene and work backwards from there. This results in the characters being asked to fill different roles each week and in the lack of consistent character arcs.

Taking Arya as an example, they clearly wanted her to murder the Freys because *cool scene*, then they wanted a scene with Ed Sheeran and then they wanted to create some drama in Winterfell. Arya's character and motivation never came into it. She's not even the worst offender - Sansa was a different person in each of her scenes last season.

 

 

Inconsistent behavior can be explained away because the show is not written by one person.  David and Dan get the credit but it is also not out of the question that they have assistants write the actual script and they just glance at it prior to filming.  Written by committee.  

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3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Inconsistent behavior can be explained away because the show is not written by one person.  David and Dan get the credit but it is also not out of the question that they have assistants write the actual script and they just glance at it prior to filming.  Written by committee.  

Most TV shows have writers' rooms, and they don't have anywhere near the problems with consistent characterization that GoT has. 

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