441 posts in this topic

20 minutes ago, nara said:

Once Jon bent the knee, going to her room was disrespectful of his queen and presumptuous. If she had gone to him, that would be different. 

Nah man. :)

You go to her place, you don't make your queen come to you.  

In all seriousness though, it did play out a little weird.  

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7 hours ago, nara said:

Re: awkward Jonerys sex, I realized that one of the things that bothered me was him going to her room. Once Jon bent the knee, going to her room was disrespectful of his queen and presumptuous. If she had gone to him, that would be different. 

I took it differently.

She was really touched when he called her, "Dany," and, for the first time in years, somebody looked at her as a person first and not as a queen, warlord, politician, general or anything like that. Even Jorah and Tyrion don't really treat her as a person.

Jon sees Dany as his equal because he doesn't believe in power that way. For him, people are people, and that's his great quality. For Dany to have a man come to her is treating her as a person, and that's what she craves most of all. It's not that dissimilar to Daario's first encounters with her.

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1 hour ago, Yukle said:

For Dany to have a man come to her is treating her as a person, and that's what she craves most of all.

That and "bend the knee". She seems to want that a lot too. 

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Imagine there was no rebellion, and the Mountain didn't slaughter Rhaegar's annulled family. I like to think we would've heard this line at some point:

Rhaenys Targaryen: "Hi, my name is Rhaenys. This is my brother Aegon, and this is my other brother Aegon."

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4 hours ago, Yukle said:

I took it differently.

She was really touched when he called her, "Dany," and, for the first time in years, somebody looked at her as a person first and not as a queen, warlord, politician, general or anything like that. 

Actually, her first thought upon hearing "Dany" was of her brother Viserys, who also wanted to sex her.

Presumably, she was touched because deep down she sensed Jon is family, too, and Targryens have icky, icky incest in their blood. 

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4 hours ago, Yukle said:

Even Jorah and Tyrion don't really treat her as a person

Given his feelings, had Jorah treated Dany as a person, Khal Drogo would've felt compelled to nude him up and drag him behind a horse. 

After Drogo went catatonic, there was that whole surviving a funeral pyre and hatching dragons thing, which you can understand might compel Jorah to put her on a pedestal. 

 

As for Tyrion, well, the show forgot to ever have them get to know eachother. It's a weird oversight. He shows up, a Lannister and all. Funny thing, Lannisters slaughtered large chunks of her family. Anyway, she receives him formally and doesn't take his head. Then she disappears back into Dothrakiland. 

She comes back, and is pissed about him screwing up her empire. They don't really have any scenes allowing them to bond as humans--he to her or her to he. Then she names him hand for no reason. Maybe because he's the only person with passing knowledge of Westeros around. 

They don't get any personal scenes together this year, either. It's all business. (Business which Tyrion royally screws up, by the way.) Until the fireside scene, which briefly features Tyrion teasing her on a "k-i-s-s-i-n-g" level and her talking about her taste in men. Then it immediately gets political. 

You can say Tyrion treats her like a queen, yes. But the truth is these characters don't have an actual relationship. It's an illusion. So I can't say that Tyrion doesn't treat Dany as a person, because the two haven't met. Tyrion is still in that box on that ship, I think. Or maybe he's in several pieces, one of which hangs prominently on a cock-merchant's cart. 

Edited by darmody

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18 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Not at all. Gendry never touched Ice. When Ice is reforged, Tywin clearly says he had to find the last blacksmith in Volantis who knew how to deal with valyrian steel - magic spells, etc.

At no time in the show it's etablished that Gendry has any experience with valyrian steel.

Fantastic screen name! 

I didn't mean to imply that he has already had experience, just leading to it as he was apprentice to a man that knew how. It may be a book thing, not certain. I read the books a few years ago. The show doesn't elude to it other than gentry being an accomplished smith.

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25 minutes ago, A man has no name said:

I didn't mean to imply that he has already had experience, just leading to it as he was apprentice to a man that knew how. It may be a book thing, not certain. I read the books a few years ago. The show doesn't elude to it other than gentry being an accomplished smith.

Mott (the blacksmith Gendry apprenticed under) did it in the books, but the show established that smiths able to work with valyrian steel are much rarer. Tywin had to ship the guy over from Essos. 

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14 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Mott (the blacksmith Gendry apprenticed under) did it in the books, but the show established that smiths able to work with valyrian steel are much rarer. Tywin had to ship the guy over from Essos. 

Solid, thanks for the backup!

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5 minutes ago, A man has no name said:

Solid, thanks for the backup!

De nada. The problem is that with the show on an accelerated pace, if the reforging of Ice is actually a thing...  they'll probably have Gendry do it and not even bat an eyelash.  

It's all cliff's notes now. :)

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On 8/29/2017 at 4:54 PM, Titan of Bravos said:

Speaking of Cersei's impenetrable bodyguard, anyone else notice that he didn't step out in front of his liege when that wight was charging at her?

 

Call it professional courtesy, one zombie to another.

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On 8/31/2017 at 9:21 PM, Yukle said:

I took it differently.

She was really touched when he called her, "Dany," and, for the first time in years, somebody looked at her as a person first and not as a queen, warlord, politician, general or anything like that. Even Jorah and Tyrion don't really treat her as a person.

Jon sees Dany as his equal because he doesn't believe in power that way. For him, people are people, and that's his great quality. For Dany to have a man come to her is treating her as a person, and that's what she craves most of all. It's not that dissimilar to Daario's first encounters with her.

Also, even when Tyrion went back to talk to Cersei, Jon and Dany were having a discussion away from the rest of the people there. Based on their tones there was definitely some attraction there on both sides. So it's not all that disrespectful. Also, Jon was named the Kitn, and the Kettleblacks go to Cersei in the books despite of being much lower in rank.

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4 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Also, even when Tyrion went back to talk to Cersei, Jon and Dany were having a discussion away from the rest of the people there. Based on their tones there was definitely some attraction there on both sides. So it's not all that disrespectful. Also, Jon was named the Kitn, and the Kettleblacks go to Cersei in the books despite of being much lower in rank.

Looking back on S7 again, it seemed to me once Drogon and Jon "hit it off" Dany was wooed from that point on. It just so happens to be the fact that Jon is part Targaryen is the main reason why Drogon was welcoming to Jon, unbeknownst to either Dany or Jon. It is the ultimate sign of approval if your kids like the new potential mate. Dario never had that relationship with any of the dragons. The only other "Targ" who was amicable with the Dragons was Tyrion, if you had to choose which relative to make babies with who would you rather have? :)  

In the end I think both Jon and Dany will indeed perish saving Westeros on their dragons and it will come to light that actually Tyrion is a Targaryen and then he has the rightful claim to the Iron Throne. It may appear as though the Lannisters win the Game of Thrones but it is actually the Targaryens. Bittersweet ending complete. 

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10 minutes ago, tmug said:

In the end I think both Jon and Dany will indeed perish saving Westeros on their dragons and it will come to light that actually Tyrion is a Targaryen and then he has the rightful claim to the Iron Throne. It may appear as though the Lannisters win the Game of Thrones but it is actually the Targaryens. Bittersweet ending complete. 

I think there was reason Tyrion brought up succession it the previous episode. I think the show might end with the seeds of democracy being sown somehow. 

And I don't believe Tyrion is a targaryen, nor do I see a targaryen on the IT in the end, but I could be wrong.

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2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I think there was reason Tyrion brought up succession it the previous episode. I think the show might end with the seeds of democracy being sown somehow. 

And I don't believe Tyrion is a targaryen, nor do I see a targaryen on the IT in the end, but I could be wrong.

By the was things are going, Jon and Dany are heading towards a tragically romantic ending ie. Rhaegar/Lyanna and similar to Robb/Talisa in the show. Thematically, Martin seems to not favor the heroic/romantic fairy tale endings as in other stories. Too predictable and not accurate to what happens in real life. The Martin version of "love" in his story has literally caused thousands of people to die throughout Westeros, why? Because someone fell in love with someone who was forbidden to them. Robert/Lyanna/Rhaegar, Robb/Talisa, Littlefinger/Catelyn/Lysa, how many people had to die just because of these romances.  

Just saying that the ending with Lannisters ruling or even the Greyjoys ruling over what is left of Westeros would be a fitting end. If Tyrion ends up on the Iron Throne by way of him being a secret Targ or through an election, he can still honor his marriage to Sansa making her the "younger, beautiful queen" to succeed Cersei as well as the Valonqar prophecy of either Jaime or Tyrion ultimately destroying Cersei some how. 

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On 8/29/2017 at 6:20 PM, PastafarianTargaryen said:

If we look at GRRMs original pitch for ASOIAF Jon was to fall in love with Arya (those who think Jon/Dany is creepy count yourself lucky!) but later Tyrion would also fall in (one way) love with her. This then was to drive a wedge between Jon and Tyrion. If we consider the incest of Jon and Arya was replaced with Jon and Dany - was Tyrions creeping outside the ship room nothing more than jealousy? And is this what will complicate the Targaryen powerhouse that is being created for the next chapter? 

If GRRM stuck to his original plot then Arya and Jon are not related by blood. Lyanna probably didn't exist at all until mid way through the first draft. R+L=J is only proven in the show, the books may be different and even if the show is following the books, the books are not following the outline. Jamie was originally the mad king pretty much.

Tyrion may be upset at the idea that if Jon and Danny have children, the wheel will turn again.

On 8/30/2017 at 7:03 PM, A man has no name said:

I will try to explain what I believe they are attempting to display during this episode. 

1. The point to having Euron pretend to abandon Cersei is to set up the Targaryen alliance in a way the surprise can defeat overwhelmingly superior forces. Right now Cersei is outnumbered at least 5 to one. She has no *nukes AKA dragons, she has only a superior Navy.  She owns the seas through Euron. With Euron displaying erratic behavior to start the meeting, it was a public display of discord and a lack of discipline amongst her force commanders, specifically, with her only critical capability. The erratic behavior is a very public display of weakness in the face of their enemies. I believe this will ultimately fail though. Something tells me Dario Naharis might be in play here.  

2. The only real way they could have planned this is if they have an insider in Jon or Dany's forces. I have no idea who it is, but I'd say Varys if anyone. For all we know it could have been Littlefinger. Great thing Arya has the ability to snatch his face off and get close to one of the last people on her little list (Cersei).  

3. It was necessary, but everyone in the world knew that she would lie. Sadly, Tyrion fell for her lies. I believe he actually just wanted some closure in the loss of his niece and nephew. I would LOVE to know what his and Cersei's conversation was about after the scene cut. 

Cersei is going to get a shock then because Jamie is off to warn Jon and Danny of Cersei's treachery. And I bet that he gets to Winterfell first so that Arya and the assassin's team can head south to finish off his evil sister.

I can't see any need for Cersei to know anything for this plot. Arguably she did for the previous moves against Dorne and Highgarden but that is in the past now.

I am pretty sure that Tyrion understands his sister is likely to by lying but they all know that they have to go north and then fight Cersei after.

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I don't know if this is the correct place to post this:

The show emphasizes that Beric was brought back for a purpose. He lives through Lord of Light magic and has the possibility to transfer his life to another.  Does it have to be a human?  

Could Beric give his life to resurrect Viserion?  Could the Night King order Wight Viserion to eat Beric whole and Beric transfers his life force in Viserion's mouth? 

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On 9/4/2017 at 0:06 AM, hallam said:

Cersei is going to get a shock then because Jamie is off to warn Jon and Danny of Cersei's treachery. And I bet that he gets to Winterfell first so that Arya and the assassin's team can head south to finish off his evil sister.

I can't see any need for Cersei to know anything for this plot. Arguably she did for the previous moves against Dorne and Highgarden but that is in the past now.

I am pretty sure that Tyrion understands his sister is likely to by lying but they all know that they have to go north and then fight Cersei after.

Spoiler

This should be after Cersei has her miscarriage opening season 8.

As for Cersei knowing part of the plot, it all depends on who her spy is, my thoughts are:

Spoiler

Varys, has he and Illerio Mopatis backed a Blackfier Targaryen return to Westeros in the books. This will be part of the Golden Company's betrayal of Cersei-as they will be *tin foil here* previously contracted by Varys / Illerio to back Aegon Targaryen's claim to the IT. 

I agree with the Tyrion part.

 

On 9/10/2017 at 5:54 AM, FaceTheStrange said:

I don't know if this is the correct place to post this:

The show emphasizes that Beric was brought back for a purpose. He lives through Lord of Light magic and has the possibility to transfer his life to another.  Does it have to be a human?  

Could Beric give his life to resurrect Viserion?  Could the Night King order Wight Viserion to eat Beric whole and Beric transfers his life force in Viserion's mouth? 

Arya is said to be taking the place of:

Spoiler

Lady Stoneheart. In the books, Beric gives his life to her, I wonder if "Arya" is killed, and Beric might breathe his life force into her?

 

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On 8/29/2017 at 0:05 AM, A Bong of Ice and Fire said:

Kind of ungrateful on Sansa's behalf.  She only escaped King's Landing and Joffrey because of Petyr.  He did actually love her, in his own twisted way.

So much this. Also saving her from Lysa, and liberating Winterfell. I felt really sorry for him and that Sandra and Arya had become evil. And he was a much more interesting character than either of them.

I felt like it was Arya, not LF, who was causing all the trouble in Winterfell this season. (1) Commits genocide against the Freys, (2) Irrationally keeps verbally attacking Sandra (this starts before she reads the note she wrote), (3) Espionage, (4) Steals the letter from Petyr's room, and (5) kills LF before Sandra pronounces sentence. The only possible accusation against LF this season is that he planted a note for Arya to find, which he can claim (and basically does claim) that he obtained from Wolkan in order to protect Sandra's reputation and was stolen by Arya - it was well-hidden, after all.

Yet Arya gets away with all this, in fact Sandra suddenly becomes nice to her in the finale, in spite of it. Not that I thought Arya should have been executed (except perhaps for her crimes against House Frey, which were not common knowledge, though Bran could have told people about that, too). But I definitely didn't think LF should have been executed. He killed nowhere near as many people as Arya did. Just compare him with Jorah, whose punishment was banishment, and Tyrion, who was given the option of taking the black and a trial by combat. Ned also was supposed to have been allowed to take the black. Even Cersei was allowed a walk of penance. LF was killed on the spot with no options.

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30 minutes ago, CaptainTheo said:

So much this. Also saving her from Lysa, and liberating Winterfell. I felt really sorry for him and that Sandra and Arya had become evil. And he was a much more interesting character than either of them.

I felt like it was Arya, not LF, who was causing all the trouble in Winterfell this season. (1) Commits genocide against the Freys, (2) Irrationally keeps verbally attacking Sandra (this starts before she reads the note she wrote), (3) Espionage, (4) Steals the letter from Petyr's room, and (5) kills LF before Sandra pronounces sentence. The only possible accusation against LF this season is that he planted a note for Arya to find, which he can claim (and basically does claim) that he obtained from Wolkan in order to protect Sandra's reputation and was stolen by Arya - it was well-hidden, after all.

Yet Arya gets away with all this, in fact Sandra suddenly becomes nice to her in the finale, in spite of it. Not that I thought Arya should have been executed (except perhaps for her crimes against House Frey, which were not common knowledge, though Bran could have told people about that, too). But I definitely didn't think LF should have been executed. He killed nowhere near as many people as Arya did. Just compare him with Jorah, whose punishment was banishment, and Tyrion, who was given the option of taking the black and a trial by combat. Ned also was supposed to have been allowed to take the black. Even Cersei was allowed a walk of penance. LF was killed on the spot with no options.

Littlefinger loves Sansa the way people love their fancy sports cars. 

That is all she was to him. A trophy. A living embodiment of how he succesfully rose up in the world and f*ed the lords and ladies of the realm. She was his big f* you to Brenden Stark and Hooster Tully. You can almost see him had he married her laughing at them thinking who is laughing now you two... i married your niece and your granddaughter. She is going to have my kids!!! I win !!!

That is all she was to him. A trophy. That is why he could give her to the Boltons and not bat an eye because it didn’t matter. He would just collect her afterwards like a possession when either Stannis beat them or he and the Knights of the Vale beat them. That was why he could destroy her family and try to destroy her relationship with her sister because her feelings and wants did not matter. All that mattered was that he rise as far as he could to be able to look down on as many people as he could with his trophy by his side. 

Disgusting human being and one who was rightfully executed.

Edited by jcmontea

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