Targaryen Restoration

The younger, more beautiful queen . . .

115 posts in this topic

What exactly is Cersei's claim on the Iron Throne?  Especially since she is waving Lannister banners.  She has no claim.  And for her to call Dany a usurper is hilarious considering she just killed the Queen and as far as anyone else knows the King as well, who was supposed to be a Baratheon (we all know he wasn't but still). I don't see how she has any claim at all especially being she isn't not claiming the Baratheon name.  

Edited by SerJeremiahLouistark

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3 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

What exactly is Cersei's claim on the Iron Throne? 

She's Robert's widow.

We've seen widows (and widowers) inherit Lordships multiple times—even over a sister and a bastard son, in one case. There's apparently no precedent saying whether that does or doesn't apply to the Iron Throne the same way it applies to lesser titles, so someone could surely mount a challenge if they had any other pretender for the Baratheon dynasty (like Gendry), but nobody does.

And besides, who would challenge it? Everyone who isn't on Team Lannister is on Team Dany and rejecting the Baratheon Dynasty entirely. Nobody left alive and in power is at all interested in finding a better Baratheon heir than Cersei.

Meanwhile, Cersei changing to Lannister colors doesn't mean anything legally. Sometimes someone inheriting from a different house changes their name to match the house (as we see with Harry the Heir, Lady Hornwood, and other characters in the novels); sometimes they establish their own house (as we saw with, most obviously if not most straightforwardly, Robert). The same thing often happens in real life. For example, multiple English/British kings from Henry II to Edward VII kept their father's houses despite inheriting the throne through their mothers.

Of course symbolically it does mean something—anyone who was supporting her out of leftover Baratheon loyalty would probably not be as happy to support her after the change. But there really is no one supporting her out of leftover Baratheon loyalty, so she's not really risking anything.

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18 minutes ago, falcotron said:

She's Robert's widow.

We've seen widows (and widowers) inherit Lordships multiple times—even over a sister and a bastard son, in one case. There's apparently no precedent saying whether that does or doesn't apply to the Iron Throne the same way it applies to lesser titles, so someone could surely mount a challenge if they had any other pretender for the Baratheon dynasty (like Gendry), but nobody does.

And besides, who would challenge it? Everyone who isn't on Team Lannister is on Team Dany and rejecting the Baratheon Dynasty entirely. Nobody left alive and in power is at all interested in finding a better Baratheon heir than Cersei.

Meanwhile, Cersei changing to Lannister colors doesn't mean anything legally. Sometimes someone inheriting from a different house changes their name to match the house (as we see with Harry the Heir, Lady Hornwood, and other characters in the novels); sometimes they establish their own house (as we saw with, most obviously if not most straightforwardly, Robert). The same thing often happens in real life. For example, multiple English/British kings from Henry II to Edward VII kept their father's houses despite inheriting the throne through their mothers.

Of course symbolically it does mean something—anyone who was supporting her out of leftover Baratheon loyalty would probably not be as happy to support her after the change. But there really is no one supporting her out of leftover Baratheon loyalty, so she's not really risking anything.

It just sucks because it's all come down to this and a major part of the history of the iron throne is bloody due to the question of legitimacy.  The entire Blackfyre Rebellion was over legitimacy.  but there I go again mixing book cannon with show stuff when I should not. 

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Just now, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

It just sucks because it's all come down to this and a major part of the history of the iron throne is bloody due to the question of legitimacy.  The entire Blackfyre Rebellion was over legitimacy.  but there I go again mixing book cannon with show stuff when I should not. 

Yes, it does suck, just like most real-life medieval countries, and especially England (from whose history GRRM has directly borrowed most of Westeros's conflicts).

The good news is that, once they come up with the idea of a parliament, and then have a revolution like the English Civil War a few centuries later that gives them enough power, and then eventually that parliament will get sick of these succession wars and pass the kinds of laws that the British have been passing since William and Mary. Either that, or they'll wait another century or two and the crown will have so little power that nobody will bother fighting wars over it anyway.

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19 hours ago, Gala said:

in the end it is all about Daenerys.

Because she is the main character and fits all of the criteria for the younger, more beautiful queen.  Dany will take the throne and Westeros.

The valonquar is a different person.  Perhaps Tyrion.  We need to separate hbo's Tyrion and Martin's Tyrion.  Two different dwarfs.  They're not the same at all.  Martin's Tyrion will not hesitate to choke the life out of Cersei. 

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On 9/2/2017 at 10:12 AM, Ye Shall Be As Gods said:

Because she is the main character and fits all of the criteria for the younger, more beautiful queen.  Dany will take the throne and Westeros.

The valonquar is a different person.  Perhaps Tyrion.  We need to separate hbo's Tyrion and Martin's Tyrion.  Two different dwarfs.  They're not the same at all.  Martin's Tyrion will not hesitate to choke the life out of Cersei. 

Queen Daenerys is the younger, more beautiful queen that will throw Cersei down.  Agree completely.

I have my doubts that the Valonqar will show up.  Cersei will die by childbirth.  Tyrion is already a father-killer and a fiancee killer.  Well, exfiancee in Shay's mind.  But you get the point. 

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2 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Queen Daenerys is the younger, more beautiful queen that will throw Cersei down.  Agree completely.

I have my doubts that the Valonqar will show up.  Cersei will die by childbirth.  Tyrion is already a father-killer and a fiancee killer.  Well, exfiancee in Shay's mind.  But you get the point. 

We need a scene where Cersei after she is stripped of power talks to Dany about "i should have known it was going to be you" or something

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On 9/1/2017 at 1:19 PM, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

What exactly is Cersei's claim on the Iron Throne?  Especially since she is waving Lannister banners.  She has no claim.

I think basically her real claim is that she sat on it and no one has had the balls to knock her off of it yet. 

 

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2 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

I think basically her real claim is that she sat on it and no one has had the balls to knock her off of it yet. 

 

Pretty much. Cersei has no real claim, she just crowned herself and dared anyone present to prevent her. 
She rules trough fear and intimidation, and with the exception of Jon (who doesn't care about the throne) and Daenerys (who is warring against her already) there aren't really any other claimants to the throne, especially not anyone strong enough to challenge her.

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7 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Pretty much. Cersei has no real claim, she just crowned herself and dared anyone present to prevent her. 
She rules trough fear and intimidation, and with the exception of Jon (who doesn't care about the throne) and Daenerys (who is warring against her already) there aren't really any other claimants to the throne, especially not anyone strong enough to challenge her.

Agree. This doesn't seem like that crazy an idea either. Rulling through fear and intimidation is pretty comon in history.

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4 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

there aren't really any other claimants to the throne, especially not anyone strong enough to challenge her.

One reason which, is that unlike Danaerys Cersei has no qualms about using fire... Wiping out Margaery and the Tryell nobles, and all her opposition in Kings Landing, really solidified her claim lol clever girl 

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Jaime will kill Cersei. It's a running gag how she keeps reading Maggie's prophecy wrong and goes after the wrong people. She thinks Tyrion is the valonquar. That's why she hates him and tries to have him killed.  And so she contributes to her own downfall by driving him off to Daenerys. 

And of course Dany is the younger queen. But Cersei went after Margaery instead. And Sansa before that

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Right. Every character's arc, especially Jaime's is about Cersei being surprised. /sarcasm

Only Cersei uses the word "volonquar" and she's the interpreter too. She's delusional about lots of things, but she can't be wrong about this one?

Jaime will never kill Cersei - he's indifferent to her now.

"younger, more beautiful" - the wording is ambigous - can mean a woman not necessarily queen.

Why is everyone ignoring Jaime's weirdwood dream, which already is prophetic in large ways?

Since Cersei hold Jaime's loyalty (or love) to her dear - because it's useful to her - I don't how Dany can take it. He would never be loyal or love mad king's daughter who likeds burning people alive.

My vote is for Brienne - younger, more beautiful (on the inside). And there are recent ties to Targaryens in her family...

 

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1 hour ago, MarkPierre said:

Right. Every character's arc, especially Jaime's is about Cersei being surprised. /sarcasm

Only Cersei uses the word "volonquar" and she's the interpreter too. She's delusional about lots of things, but she can't be wrong about this one?

Jaime will never kill Cersei - he's indifferent to her now.

"younger, more beautiful" - the wording is ambigous - can mean a woman not necessarily queen.

Why is everyone ignoring Jaime's weirdwood dream, which already is prophetic in large ways?

Since Cersei hold Jaime's loyalty (or love) to her dear - because it's useful to her - I don't how Dany can take it. He would never be loyal or love mad king's daughter who likeds burning people alive.

My vote is for Brienne - younger, more beautiful (on the inside). And there are recent ties to Targaryens in her family...

 

According to the GoT wiki, Maggi specifically says a younger more beautiful queen. Didn't rewatch the scene, but assuming that wording is true the chances its Brienne feels close to zero. I would say 95% chance its Daenerys, 4% chance its Sansa and 1% other. 

"Worried, Cersei used her second question to confirm that she would indeed be queen some day. Maggy confirmed that she would, but that in time she would be cast down by another, younger and more beautiful queen, who would take all she held dear."

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Maggy

Edited by jcmontea

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Cersei: "But I will be queen?"
Maggy: "Oh yes. You'll be queen...for a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear."

It's heavily implied that it's another queen that will cast Cersei down, but Maggy didn't explicitly say "Then comes another queen", but "then comes another". With that logic however, anyone younger than Cersei and "more beautiful" (highly subjective) can be the one to cast her down. Heck, it doesn't even have to be a woman, or even a human. :P

I'm fairly certain Maggy was referring to Daenerys as well though. People can have subjective opinions whether Emilia Clarke is beautiful or not, but Daenerys the character is supposed to be the most beautiful woman currently alive in Westeros, and she is younger than Cersei for sure, and she is a queen if that is of any consequence. 
Sansa is also younger, but she is a wildcard when it comes to beauty, I'm not sure how beautiful Sansa is "supposed" to be in the story, and currently she's not a queen. 

Edit: The "take all you hold dear"-part also fits with Daenerys.
She has "taken" Tyrion from her, and now Jamie as well, so Cersei has lost her family (one of the few things she holds dear), to Daenerys, and Cersei will most likely end up losing the throne (the other thing Cersei cares about) to Daenerys as well. I don't know how close Euron and Cersei is, but if he ends up betraying Cersei for Daenerys (I'm just speculating, he does seem to have a thing for Dany) then that would sort of seal the deal.
 

Edited by MinscS2

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

Cersei: "But I will be queen?"
Maggy: "Oh yes. You'll be queen...for a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear."

It's heavily implied that it's another queen that will cast Cersei down, but Maggy didn't explicitly say "Then comes another queen", but "then comes another". With that logic however, anyone younger than Cersei and "more beautiful" (highly subjective) can be the one to cast her down. Heck, it doesn't even have to be a woman, or even a human. :P

I'm fairly certain Maggy was referring to Daenerys as well though. People can have subjective opinions whether Emilia Clarke is beautiful or not, but Daenerys the character is supposed to be the most beautiful woman currently alive in Westeros, and she is younger than Cersei for sure, and she is a queen if that is of any consequence. 
Sansa is also younger, but she is a wildcard when it comes to beauty, I'm not sure how beautiful Sansa is "supposed" to be in the story, and currently she's not a queen. 

Edit: The "take all you hold dear"-part also fits with Daenerys.
She has "taken" Tyrion from her, and now Jamie as well, so Cersei has lost her family (one of the few things she holds dear), to Daenerys, and Cersei will most likely end up losing the throne (the other thing Cersei cares about) to Daenerys as well. I don't know how close Euron and Cersei is, but if he ends up betraying Cersei for Daenerys (I'm just speculating, he does seem to have a thing for Dany) then that would sort of seal the deal.
 

Yea. not exact but i agree that the phrasing does heavily imply another queen, since not sure what else another would refer to. 

I have always found Dany to be very attractive, but I thought they did something this year that took it to another level. Not sure if they changed the wig - I felt it looked even more Valyrian than normal - the make up or what but everything about her was just popping. 

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5 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Yea. not exact but i agree that the phrasing does heavily imply another queen, since not sure what else another would refer to. 

 

plot twist: Then comes an Other, casts down her plot armor and takes everything she holds dear. And the Other will be .... Jaime.

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5 hours ago, MarkPierre said:

Only Cersei uses the word "volonquar" and she's the interpreter too. She's delusional about lots of things, but she can't be wrong about this one?

Yes she can. Cersei and Jaime are twins, but she was born first. That makes Jaime her "little brother" as much as Tyrion.

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"Then comes another"...aren't the White Walkers also known as "the others"? :ph34r:

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33 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

"Then comes another"...aren't the White Walkers also known as "the others"? :ph34r:

Well, another, not others. And they're not very young and beautiful.:P

 

I do believe that it means Daenerys. Cersei hated Tyrion from the start and she is sooo sure he is the valonquar. 

Could be Jaime (her twin but younger brother, Martin told us, maybe for a purpose), could be Tyrion, could be Arya (valonquar maybe a sister), could be her unborn baby (who is a valonquar, younger brother/sister)...:) 

Edited by Sasha

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