Discussing Sansa XXXIII: Pack survived

[greensleeves]

8 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

What bothered  me was not the final confrontation with Littlefinger, but the  sloppiness in plotting that led up to it.  We were led to believe that Arya had some serious anger towards Sansa and was threatening her life or at least bent on scaring Sansa; and we still don't know whether that interplay was real or manufactured to draw out Littlefinger; because we don't know when Sansa discussed Littlefinger with Bran.  It looks like Arya was in on Sansa's plan when Arya was brought to the hall for 'trial', since Arya had the dagger.  But I would have liked to see Sansa have enough agency to not only distrust Littlefinger, but go to talk to her visionary brother herself to get some extra intel.  I personally think that Sansa realized that Littlefinger was pushing her to get rid of Arya shortly before she sent Brienne to King's Landing; since that move would signal to Littlefinger that Sansa wanted Arya's only protection gone from Winterfell.  But we don't know; and if we assue that Arya and Sansa's increasingly tense and bitter conversations were pre-arranged to confuse Littlefinger, than why was Sansa digging through Arya's things and pulling out Faceless-masks?  And why would Sansa have looked so hurt and horror-stricken when Arya coldly threatened to kill her, with real tears in Sansa's eyes?  Littlefinger couldn't have seen that much if he was peeping through a keyhole, mainly he would have heard their voices...

Yes!

It's sad that they've forced the viewer to fill in all of these blanks, but I think it's because they don't have the ability to do so themselves.

I'm really looking forward to this plot in the books though.

[Angel Eyes]

I think that if they are to survive, Sansa should be taught how to fight. The Army of the Dead will come for everyone, so everyone will have to fight. For example, even the cooks fought in the Battle of Castle Black. 

 

[Pandean]

21 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I think that if they are to survive, Sansa should be taught how to fight. The Army of the Dead will come for everyone, so everyone will have to fight. For example, even the cooks fought in the Battle of Castle Black. 

 

They also will need people to make warm clothes, make sure everyone is fed, and the like.

Despite what Lyanna Mormont said, there is some necessity in 'knitting by the fire'. If you're facing what may be the longest Winter in a century and dealing with the hordes of frozen ice zombies, you're going to need things so frostbite and starvation don't kill you first.

[Lothar]

33 minutes ago, Padrino said:

People are reading waaaaaay too much into the Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger shenanigans before this episode.  Arya following him and being hostile to Sansa was not a set up, that was all real.  Sansa being frightened of Arya's intentions was also real.  Now, Littlefinger could have implied that Arya was a psycho ninja assassin, and that she wanted to kill Sansa because she married a Bolton, or that her letter to Robb was treasonous, or a variety of other reasons, but he chose the one motive that Sansa knew for certain was not true, ie that Arya wants to be Lady of Winterfell.  That was his undoing.

Correct, it's cute that so many are going back and trying to pretend the prior scenes made sense.  Of course they were really arguing.  They were in private.  It wasn't for Littlefinger's benefit. 

[Mladen]

10 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Ultimately, I wished that Sansa had been the one to kill LF.  Yet again, Sansa uses other people to do the work, and keep her hands clean.  If I remember rightly, she has harmed nobody in the show.  

You forgot Sweetrobin.

But, I think that is the point of her storyarc. is in establishing herself by not openly going against people. She is such a slow burner, when she explodes, it truly is a nuke. Look at how she brought LF down. I don't mind her not being active participant in the physical part of demise of her enemies. What is the most important for her is that they know who brought that demise on them.

[Raksha 2014]

21 minutes ago, Pandean said:

They also will need people to make warm clothes, make sure everyone is fed, and the like.

Despite what Lyanna Mormont said, there is some necessity in 'knitting by the fire'. If you're facing what may be the longest Winter in a century and dealing with the hordes of frozen ice zombies, you're going to need things so frostbite and starvation don't kill you first.

 

46 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I think that if they are to survive, Sansa should be taught how to fight. The Army of the Dead will come for everyone, so everyone will have to fight. For example, even the cooks fought in the Battle of Castle Black. 

 

 

The problem with teaching Sansa how to fight, at least now; is that it is similar to trying to force Arya to be a lady.  Sansa has no interest or (as far as we know) aptitude for fighting.  And as Lady of Winterfell with a much stronger aptitude for sewing; her talents would be far better put to use in organizing and supervising the making of warm clothing for the fighters and others; since without suitable gloves and cloaks, they will die of frostbite and/or pneumonia.  And if the wights get close enough to Sansa for her to physically try to fight them off, she's dead unless she has several guards with fire and an incoming dragon.  

If the fighting cooks in the Battle of Castle Black were Night's Watch (as opposed to women from the town below) - I can't remember - than they were probably sturdy thugs who had at least had some arms training, not for a few weeks, but for at least a few months, when they first came there.  I'm not sure that Sansa will have a few months to train before the Army of the Dead hits Winterfell.

[Pandean]

3 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

 

The problem with teaching Sansa how to fight, at least now; is that it is similar to trying to force Arya to be a lady.  Sansa has no interest or (as far as we know) aptitude for fighting.  And as Lady of Winterfell with a much stronger aptitude for sewing; her talents would be far better put to use in organizing and supervising the making of warm clothing for the fighters and others; since without suitable gloves and cloaks, they will die of frostbite and/or pneumonia.  And if the wights get close enough to Sansa for her to physically try to fight them off, she's dead unless she has several guards with fire and an incoming dragon.  

If the fighting cooks in the Battle of Castle Black were Night's Watch (as opposed to women from the town below) - I can't remember - than they were probably sturdy thugs who had at least had some arms training, not for a few weeks, but for at least a few months, when they first came there.  I'm not sure that Sansa will have a few months to train before the Army of the Dead hits Winterfell.

Exactly. Arya is not a lady and Sansa is not a warrior. She would be a lot more helpful using the skills she has versus trying to actually fight.

[Daske]

1 hour ago, greensleeves said:

Yes!

It's sad that they've forced the viewer to fill in all of these blanks, but I think it's because they don't have the ability to do so themselves.

I'm really looking forward to this plot in the books though.

Then why bother with a  story at all? Have it written by box-ticking accountants. Of course they have the ability to write a story but then where is the drama if we know everything that is going to happen in advance? What's wrong with using our imagination to fill-in the blanks?

It doesn't have to be one thing.

Sansa was (quite rightly) having some doubts about her strange and dangerous sister.
Arya was (quite rightly) suspicious about her haughty sister who is hanging out with Littlefinger.
Siblings argue and fight; they just do.
Sansa never has any intention of siding with Littlefinger, she played along to learn more and to get Littlefinger off-guard.
Some discussions between the siblings were off-screen.
Some actions may have been staged.
Arya was intentionally lying to Sansa when playing the Game of Faces. She was never really threatening her life.
The whole confrontation with Arya was set-up so that LF was caught on the hop had no way to escape.
Arya didn't just kill him earlier in his sleep because at first she needed to know where Sansa stood. And also...
Sansa didn't just have him murdered in his sleep because she wanted to plan a public (as much as possible) confrontation where she could accuse him of his crimes and in part absolve her father of his.
Sansa and Arya (and Bran) passed the dagger around as a way of sharing their family bond - the knife is a reminder of their shared enemies and how their family had been wronged.

All or some of that can be true in places. I don't understand the need to have how that was decided or planned served up on plate. Most of it is obvious in hindsight from the pieces we were shown and it still allowed for a really satisfactory twist. Does it really matter that Sansa gave Arya back the dagger at 2.35pm the day before over a spot of light lunch?

You cite the books, yet you have to fill in a huge number of blanks there throughout the series because of the PoV structure. We simply don't get given many of the hidden scenes you are asking for in the books either because they are happening off-page between non-PoV characters and/or we hear about them third hand.

 

[lakin1013]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

You forgot Sweetrobin.

But, I think that is the point of her storyarc. is in establishing herself by not openly going against people. She is such a slow burner, when she explodes, it truly is a nuke. Look at how she brought LF down. I don't mind her not being active participant in the physical part of demise of her enemies. What is the most important for her is that they know who brought that demise on them.

I see your point but I cannot get there.  Sansa did not bring down LF by herself, she needed coaxing from her little sister.  For all we know, from Bran too.  I know her approach is a type of leadership, its just a type I don't care for.  

 As I remember, she didn't kill sweetrobin, did she?  She just kept him doped up, right?

[Padrino]

2 hours ago, Lothar said:

Correct, it's cute that so many are going back and trying to pretend the prior scenes made sense.  Of course they were really arguing.  They were in private.  It wasn't for Littlefinger's benefit. 

Aye, I don't know what show people are watching.  It's all there in the first Winterfell scene this episode.  Sansa and Littlefinger are discussing Jon bending the knee to Dany, which then turns to the subject of Arya.  Sansa is still clueless at that point, all the hostility with Arya has been real to her.  It's only when LF pushes her to the conclusion that Arya is there to kill her and replace her as Lady of Winterfell that the penny finally drops, he wants her to dispose of Arya.  She knows LF is shady as they come, and she's tolerated that until now, but that very moment is when she realises that LF is encouraging her to kill her own sister for a motive she knows can not possibly be true.

[Gaz0680]

52 minutes ago, Padrino said:

Aye, I don't know what show people are watching.  It's all there in the first Winterfell scene this episode.  Sansa and Littlefinger are discussing Jon bending the knee to Dany, which then turns to the subject of Arya.  Sansa is still clueless at that point, all the hostility with Arya has been real to her.  It's only when LF pushes her to the conclusion that Arya is there to kill her and replace her as Lady of Winterfell that the penny finally drops, he wants her to dispose of Arya.  She knows LF is shady as they come, and she's tolerated that until now, but that very moment is when she realises that LF is encouraging her to kill her own sister for a motive she knows can not possibly be true.

No, all the hostility was not real.

The Game of Faces Arya played with Sansa was NEVER a threat on Sansa's life. It was all part of the game and the message Arya was clearly giving to Sansa (albeit yes in a messed up way) was that she is on her side. Sansa knew Arya never wanted to be a Lady. That bit about wondering what it would be like to wear those pretty dresses and be Lady of Winterfell...all of that was a lie.

 

[Lorathi]

4 hours ago, Pandean said:

They also will need people to make warm clothes, make sure everyone is fed, and the like.

Despite what Lyanna Mormont said, there is some necessity in 'knitting by the fire'. If you're facing what may be the longest Winter in a century and dealing with the hordes of frozen ice zombies, you're going to need things so frostbite and starvation don't kill you first.

That's a good point, but Sansa hasn't been doing that either. She and Arya seem to have spent all their time bickering since Jon left. Sansa was shown taking knitting lessons (in the book, maybe on the show too?) and she was really good at knitting. Arya should be working too. She's already a great fighter, so spending all day training swordplay won't help much. From what I saw, Jon's speech didn't have much of an impact on them. They wasted a lot of time in Winterfell not doing anything significant.

[Lorathi]

2 hours ago, Padrino said:

Aye, I don't know what show people are watching.  It's all there in the first Winterfell scene this episode.  Sansa and Littlefinger are discussing Jon bending the knee to Dany, which then turns to the subject of Arya.  Sansa is still clueless at that point, all the hostility with Arya has been real to her.  It's only when LF pushes her to the conclusion that Arya is there to kill her and replace her as Lady of Winterfell that the penny finally drops, he wants her to dispose of Arya.  She knows LF is shady as they come, and she's tolerated that until now, but that very moment is when she realises that LF is encouraging her to kill her own sister for a motive she knows can not possibly be true.

I think you have it right, and that's probably the most confusing thing about Sansa (a character I can't say I really understand). A big part of her arc is about becoming more clever and more adept at "the game" than the other Starks. Both she and Arya, albeit in different ways, have stepped outside the bounds of what Ned would consider honorable to take their revenge on the family's enemies and protect themselves.

In that light, it makes no sense that it took this (him trying to get her to kill Arya) for Sansa to turn against Littlefinger. This is the same Sansa who wanted children kicked out of their ancestral home because their parents were traitors (by which logic, of course, she had no right to retake Winterfell because Ned confessed to treason against the Crown). Yet she doesn't want to even imprison Littlefinger for getting her raped and tortured.

It would have been much better for Sansa's arc if she put all the pieces together herself and figured out all Littlefinger's betrayals of her family. He has shown before with Sansa and with Varys that he likes to brag about his own cleverness to people he considers worthy of his respect. If she had gotten him to talk a bit too much and implicate himself, I would have enjoyed that.

[Padrino]

7 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

No, all the hostility was not real.

The Game of Faces Arya played with Sansa was NEVER a threat on Sansa's life. It was all part of the game and the message Arya was clearly giving to Sansa (albeit yes in a messed up way) was that she is on her side. Sansa knew Arya never wanted to be a Lady. That bit about wondering what it would be like to wear those pretty dresses and be Lady of Winterfell...all of that was a lie.

 

Wut?  You've interpreted the scene as the exact opposite of as it was intended.  Arya despises Sansa's girliness and love of material things, and she was pointing out that she could take it all if she wanted, but she doesn't want any of that, hence handing the dagger to Sansa and leaving her terrified.  It wasn't Arya saying she was on Sansa's side, it was Arya saying she doesn't care about power or titles or any of the things highborn Westerosi girls are supposed to care about.  The scene was there to remind the audience, and Sansa, that Arya never wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, which leads us to this episode.

Either way, it was not part of some scheme to fool Littlefinger, and it was Littlefinger implying that Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell that made Sansa finally realise he was plotting to set them against each other, 'I'm a slow learner, it's true. But I learn'.  The hostility was very real, but that's not to say Arya was threatening Sansa's life, just setting her straight and trying to keep her honest.  The trial scene emphasises why Sansa turned on him, because he was turning sister against sister, which she would not necessarily have realised if Littlefinger had nudged her toward a more believable motive for Arya's intentions.  Up until the moment he dropped himself in it, with the Lady of Winterfell implication, his plan to divide them was working. . .

[Gaz0680]

9 minutes ago, Padrino said:

Wut?  You've interpreted the scene as the exact opposite of as it was intended.  Arya despises Sansa's girliness and love of material things, and she was pointing out that she could take it all if she wanted, but she doesn't want any of that, hence handing the dagger to Sansa and leaving her terrified.  It wasn't Arya saying she was on Sansa's side, it was Arya saying she doesn't care about power or titles or any of the things highborn Westerosi girls are supposed to care about.  The scene was there to remind the audience, and Sansa, that Arya never wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, which leads us to this episode.

You can't say that I interpreted it the opposite of how it was intended just because it was different to your interpretation.  How do you know what was 'intended'?

Also, its very probable Arya handing the dagger to Sansa was saying both that she didnt want to be Lady of Winterfell and that she was no threat to Sansa and was on her side.

Nothing was spelled out very clearly in the Winterfell plot and almost all of it, as well as what went on off-screen, is open to interpretation by the viewer. 

D&D are hacks and the entire Winterfell plot should never have happened how it did and it almost ruined 3 important characters (Arya, Sansa, Littlefinger) beyond repair. 

The tension between the sisters was contrived and ridiculous and the actions were out of character in so many ways. Arya is not a lunatic. She is very smart, has a lot of street cunning and despite her previous problems with Sansa as children, would never so easily turn against her family.

Also, upon reuniting, the real Sansa and Arya would have actually talked and told each other about what they had been through (maybe not all of it, but enough to give the other a strong sense of what they'd been through and the person they are now - more similar to the Jon-Sansa reunion).

The way they wrote it was terrible and very little in the entire plot made sense. Im glad its over and LF is dead.

 

[Padrino]

33 minutes ago, Lorathi said:

I think you have it right, and that's probably the most confusing thing about Sansa (a character I can't say I really understand). A big part of her arc is about becoming more clever and more adept at "the game" than the other Starks. Both she and Arya, albeit in different ways, have stepped outside the bounds of what Ned would consider honorable to take their revenge on the family's enemies and protect themselves.

In that light, it makes no sense that it took this (him trying to get her to kill Arya) for Sansa to turn against Littlefinger. This is the same Sansa who wanted children kicked out of their ancestral home because their parents were traitors (by which logic, of course, she had no right to retake Winterfell because Ned confessed to treason against the Crown). Yet she doesn't want to even imprison Littlefinger for getting her raped and tortured.

It would have been much better for Sansa's arc if she put all the pieces together herself and figured out all Littlefinger's betrayals of her family. He has shown before with Sansa and with Varys that he likes to brag about his own cleverness to people he considers worthy of his respect. If she had gotten him to talk a bit too much and implicate himself, I would have enjoyed that.

Well, this is the thing.  It's not specifically that he tried to turn Sansa against Arya that was his undoing.  He could have said Arya is a midget ninja psycho assassin that wants to kill Sansa for betraying the family, or a bunch of reasons that Sansa could believe.  He, unfortunately for him, lead her to the only motive that she knew 100% could not possibly be true.

If one was tempted to read too much into it, one could say that it's that precise moment that Sansa knows she's outgrown Littlefinger. She knows something he doesn't and she has nothing more to learn from him.  But I still think she's a dummy tbh.

[Padrino]

3 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

You can't say that I interpreted it the opposite of how it was intended just because it was different to your interpretation.  How do you know what was 'intended'?

Also, its very probable Arya handing the dagger to Sansa was saying both that she didnt want to be Lady of Winterfell and that she was no threat to Sansa and was on her side.

Nothing was spelled out very clearly in the Winterfell plot and almost all of it, as well as what went on off-screen, is open to interpretation by the viewer. 

D&D are hacks and the entire Winterfell plot should never have happened how it did and it almost ruined 3 important characters (Arya, Sansa, Littlefinger) beyond repair. 

The tension between the sisters was contrived and ridiculous and the actions were out of character in so many ways. Arya is not a lunatic. She is very smart, has a lot of street cunning and despite her previous problems with Sansa as children, would never so easily turn against her family.

Also, upon reuniting, the real Sansa and Arya would have actually talked and told each other about what they had been through (maybe not all of it, but enough to give the other a strong sense of what they'd been through and the person they are now - more similar to the Jon-Sansa reunion).

The way they wrote it was terrible and very little in the entire plot made sense. Im glad its over and LF is dead.

 

I will agree that it has not been clear up until this last episode, that much is true.  However, this episode showed that Arya's hostility and her snooping around were all very real.  It's only Littlefinger dropping himself in it that did for him, not some kind of coded messages between the sisters or Bran's visions or hidden plotting or whatever, but LF being caught in an obvious lie.  The show spelled it out.

[Verily]

This entire season has been Sansa learning on the job, learning from, and eventually out maneuvering LF who has been scheming for years and years. Nobody should expect Sansa to immediately out scheme LF from the start. Instead it's something that she comes to throughout the WF storyline with LF. 

The impact of the trial is so because the audience is led to believe Sansa is gonna go after Arya (even though we know it should be LF) and then turns around to confront LF. 

Bran sitting next to Sansa gives the impression that the Starks discussed and planned the trial for LF with help from Brans visions. This indicates that Bran has better control over his powers compared to when he arrived in WF saying they were fragmented and hard to control. Here it becomes a matter of opinion on whether you think the scenes of the Starks planning all this should have been shown or not. I'm fine with it because what was shown is enough to suggest they planned it ( Bran sitting there, Aryas smile as she turns to LF). I also think the impact wouldn't have been the same if we saw the planning. There was still that lingering doubt that maybe Sansa was still in LFs corner and was gonna go against Arya. I think the conversation she and LF had about his game of assuming the worst was the last piece that got Sansa to turn on and plan LFs execution.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

15 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Didn't Cersei mention that the Golden Company has elephants?  I foresee a big Dothraki vs. G.C. battle, horses vs. elephants; where are the Rohirrim when you need them...

Yeah, sure ... if there are any Dothraki left after The Great War lol.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

47 minutes ago, Verily said:

This entire season has been Sansa learning on the job, learning from, and eventually out maneuvering LF who has been scheming for years and years. Nobody should expect Sansa to immediately out scheme LF from the start. Instead it's something that she comes to throughout the WF storyline with LF. 

The impact of the trial is so because the audience is led to believe Sansa is gonna go after Arya (even though we know it should be LF) and then turns around to confront LF. 

Bran sitting next to Sansa gives the impression that the Starks discussed and planned the trial for LF with help from Brans visions. This indicates that Bran has better control over his powers compared to when he arrived in WF saying they were fragmented and hard to control. Here it becomes a matter of opinion on whether you think the scenes of the Starks planning all this should have been shown or not. I'm fine with it because what was shown is enough to suggest they planned it ( Bran sitting there, Aryas smile as she turns to LF). I also think the impact wouldn't have been the same if we saw the planning. There was still that lingering doubt that maybe Sansa was still in LFs corner and was gonna go against Arya. I think the conversation she and LF had about his game of assuming the worst was the last piece that got Sansa to turn on and plan LFs execution.

Exactly. LF tried to poison her mind with Arya wanting to be Lady of Winterfell and that's when Sansa realized LF is a piece of shit that doesn't know Arya at all.  Arya would never want that.  So, the next thing that happens is Sansa confronting Bran about everything (offscreen) and THEN the scene in the Great Hall.