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Discussing Sansa XXXIII: Pack survived


Mladen

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Another thing that didn't make sense....if the entire reason Sansa knew LF was playing them was because he hinted at Arya wanting to become Lady of Winterfell and Sansa knew that was not what Arya wanted, then the Arya/Sansa conversation at end also made no sense.

Why would Sansa even ask "Does that bother you?" when Arya said Sansa was Lady of Winterfell if the whole premise of exposing Littlefinger was on Sansa's knwledge that Arya did not want that. That made Sansa out to be completely stupid.

Arya's reply was just as badly written "I knew Id never be as good a Lady as you, so I had to become something else"...that makes it sound like the only reason Arya didnt become a Lady was because of Sansa, when in reality Arya was never going to be a proper Lady. It wouldn't have mattered if Sansa had died early on and Arya was eldest surviving female Stark...Arya's whole character arc is based on identity and knowing who she is deep down. At no point anywhere in book or show was she ever even remotely interested in becoming a Lady. She greatly preferred the idea of being a Lord and ruling or being a great fighter as opposed to being a proper Lady. Sansa had no part in it.

They should have had Arya say something more like "I never wanted/was never going be a Lady. I knew my path would lead me to become something very different". Hell, almost any response would have been more in character than the stupid one writers had Arya give.

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Since this is the last episode of the season, maybe it's appropriate to look at Sansa's overall storyline (and temporarily ignore how much or little sense the specifics of the Sansa-Arya plot made).

This season Sansa:

- ordered the execution of one of her family's greatest enemies

- was an effective and competent regent in Jon's absence

- reunited with her pack* and made common cause with her creepy siblings.

- in general was one of the more competent political figures this season

Good job Sansa! Thank you for continuing to be awesome!

*minus Jon, who went off to make horrible decisions 

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22 hours ago, greensleeves said:

In the end did that whole plot line actually make sense? 

I'm happy they didn't completely destroy the Stark-kids characters, but it's pretty goddam grimm when that's what I'm happy about.

 

Also, I think that Littlefinger = savage giant is now confirmed. IMO, Him dying in Winterfell is one of the plot points GRRM gave to the show.  It will be interesting to see how that happens from Sansa's POV.

It totally made sense. LF was trying to plot for the sake of plotting. I have seen my Oxford acquaintances do the same in OUCA, we used to say 'a plot so clever it is stupid'. These days they are mostly tory MPs.

20 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I noticed she had Needle on her hip too. Would she have been allowed to carry arms if she were truly under arrest?

Well they don't have much choice because there is nobody in the castle who is going to disarm her.

Here is what I think the implied chronology is: There is no discussion between Sansa and Arya until after the last Sansa/LF scene in which he tells her to think the worst. Sansa knows that Arya can be her or anyone she chooses, that if Arya wanted her dead, she would be dead already. So THAT is the point where she decided to move on LF and not before.

Once she decides to move against LF, her next priority would be to talk to Bran and Arya. The thing with Bran is that he can only answer questions he knows to ask. He actually gets one of the charges wrong because he saw LF tell Cat that the dagger belonged to him and not Joffrey hiring the mercenary.

19 hours ago, Hoo said:

i wonder what Sansa's reaction will be to Jon's bride

Well probably not as important as her reaction to knowing that Jon is Aegon which changes everything.

The Jon/Danny marriage means Sansa is probably Warden of the North in the future regardless because Jon would be with Danny in KL. Being prince consort means giving up the wardenship. And so does being king. 

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1 hour ago, greensleeves said:

Since this is the last episode of the season, maybe it's appropriate to look at Sansa's overall storyline (and temporarily ignore how much or little sense the specifics of the Sansa-Arya plot made).

This season Sansa:

- ordered the execution of one of her family's greatest enemies

- was an effective and competent regent in Jon's absence

- reunited with her pack* and made common cause with her creepy siblings.

- in general was one of the more competent political figures this season

Good job Sansa! Thank you for continuing to be awesome!

*minus Jon, who went off to make horrible decisions 

Lol I think you nailed it.

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Sansa does deserve praise for making the "right" choice in the end but she was still mostly being led by Littlefinger all season.  She wasn't able to break free from him until the very end. His final "lesson" about Arya usurping her as Lady of Winterfell made her think that's the exact thing she's been thinking she could do to Jon if she so wanted.  That's wrong.  That's not Arya.  I shouldn't think that way either.   Arya already passed her the dagger as a clue of where to look for her answer to her true enemy.  She still hadn't got it yet though.  She finally caught on with LF's last lesson. 

Because she runs that lesson back on Littlefinger and realizes his scheme.  He's trying to urge her to usurp Jon and also trying to play the sisters against each other like he did with Lysa deceiving Cat.  Realizes she already knew his crimes because Lysa screamed em out just before going out the moon door.  Goes & talks to Bran & Arya & they setup the trial. But it was Sansa's "call" as Lady of Winterfell. She took some time to think it over, as we see her on the battlement & we go to her sending for Arya. 

Arya comes in and is really the boss of the scene in the beginning. She questions Sansa openly if she really wants to do this now?  Like, are you sure?  You done thinking it over???  Sansa says Honor demands. Arya openly questions her again. Honor demands what???  Sansa finally says "that I defend my family and the North from all who would do them harm". If you notice Arya is putting Sansa's Stark loyalty on trial along with Littlefinger. Arya says let's get it overwith or "prove it" in a sense. 

Sansa proves herself by charging Littlefinger in open court. Not "fearful" Sansa who would have wanted to speak to Rhoyce for approval beforehand to keep his troops but a more "angry" Sansa who's making a boss decision without any outside approval but her family's. She's the Lady of Winterfell now in my mind. She just earned it.  She FINALLY decided to stop being led around by the Starks greatest enemy and bring him to justice. It took her a long time but she's finally back with the Pack. 

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2 hours ago, greensleeves said:

Since this is the last episode of the season, maybe it's appropriate to look at Sansa's overall storyline (and temporarily ignore how much or little sense the specifics of the Sansa-Arya plot made).

This season Sansa:

- ordered the execution of one of her family's greatest enemies

- was an effective and competent regent in Jon's absence

- reunited with her pack* and made common cause with her creepy siblings.

- in general was one of the more competent political figures this season

Good job Sansa! Thank you for continuing to be awesome!

*minus Jon, who went off to make horrible decisions 

Fuck yeah, Sansa.

And Jon. Oh his horrible decisions. Sansa should lampshade that later on.

I mean

Dude doesn't even know how the hell to lie when needed

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2 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

 

Why would Sansa even ask "Does that bother you?" when Arya said Sansa was Lady of Winterfell if the whole premise of exposing Littlefinger was on Sansa's knwledge that Arya did not want that. That made Sansa out to be completely stupid.

 

I saw this as less of an Arya wanting to be LoW and more of Arya possibly having trouble with her elder sister (whom she does not get along with very well) being the ruler and thus technically in charge of them all.

It's not the title or position in itself, but more the fact that as lady of Winterfell, Sansa is higher on the totem pole--at least to outsiders.

Only my thoughts.

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9 hours ago, Lothar said:

Correct, it's cute that so many are going back and trying to pretend the prior scenes made sense.  Of course they were really arguing.  They were in private.  It wasn't for Littlefinger's benefit. 

Perhaps I'm giving the showrunners too much benefit, but isn't pretending especially in privacy very much in line with LF's own lessons? You know, always keep up the lie, especially when alone because you never know who might be listening?

10 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Ultimately, I wished that Sansa had been the one to kill LF.  Yet again, Sansa uses other people to do the work, and keep her hands clean.  If I remember rightly, she has harmed nobody in the show.  

I am glad LF is dead, and glad that it appeared that the 3 Stark children worked together.  I just always end up wishing that Sansa had more agency.

I'm not sure - if you order someone killed, are your hands still clean? I thought the phrase about clean hands was used when the person is not known to be involved in the killing. IMHO, this is more like Amory Lorch and Gregor murdering Elia and her children but Tywin, who gave the order, being seen equally, or more, responsible.

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6 hours ago, Verily said:

This entire season has been Sansa learning on the job, learning from, and eventually out maneuvering LF who has been scheming for years and years. Nobody should expect Sansa to immediately out scheme LF from the start. Instead it's something that she comes to throughout the WF storyline with LF. 

The impact of the trial is so because the audience is led to believe Sansa is gonna go after Arya (even though we know it should be LF) and then turns around to confront LF. 

Bran sitting next to Sansa gives the impression that the Starks discussed and planned the trial for LF with help from Brans visions. This indicates that Bran has better control over his powers compared to when he arrived in WF saying they were fragmented and hard to control. Here it becomes a matter of opinion on whether you think the scenes of the Starks planning all this should have been shown or not. I'm fine with it because what was shown is enough to suggest they planned it ( Bran sitting there, Aryas smile as she turns to LF). I also think the impact wouldn't have been the same if we saw the planning. There was still that lingering doubt that maybe Sansa was still in LFs corner and was gonna go against Arya. I think the conversation she and LF had about his game of assuming the worst was the last piece that got Sansa to turn on and plan LFs execution.

I feel like we're supposed to see it as the student finally surpassing the master. But much like the infamous Jaime-Cersei sex scene by Joffrey's corpse, what they intended to show is not what they actually showed. Sansa brought Littlefinger down by admitting what she already knew he did. She knew he killed Lysa and she knew he sold her to the Boltons. She never needed to do anything other than openly state those facts to get him lawfully executed. Jon would have killed him before he left for either deed.

She didn't learn anything new. The whole "Littlefinger is plotting against Arya" reveal is ridiculous. Sansa already knew that Littlefinger uses everyone as pawns in his schemes, and has no conscience. By acting as if she just discovered his duplicitous nature, the show makes her look stupid.

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21 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I saw this as less of an Arya wanting to be LoW and more of Arya possibly having trouble with her elder sister (whom she does not get along with very well) being the ruler and thus technically in charge of them all.

It's not the title or position in itself, but more the fact that as lady of Winterfell, Sansa is higher on the totem pole--at least to outsiders.

Only my thoughts.

This is a fair point, though it should have been worded differently in that case. 

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17 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

This is a fair point, though it should have been worded differently in that case. 

Yeah. It's not easy to pick up on the way it's worded now.

Same with Arya's response. I took it more as Arya saying she knows Sansa is a great Lady and Arya also knows she is not like Sansa.

"I knew I'd never be a great lady like you" could mean less of Arya not being a lady because of Sansa but her knowing herself well enough to know that she could never be the same type of person Sansa was (or what Westerosi gender roles predicted).

 

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4 hours ago, Lorathi said:

She didn't learn anything new. The whole "Littlefinger is plotting against Arya" reveal is ridiculous. Sansa already knew that Littlefinger uses everyone as pawns in his schemes, and has no conscience. By acting as if she just discovered his duplicitous nature, the show makes her look stupid.

1. She didn't know that Lysa killed Jon Arryn.

2. She didn't know about Lysa's letter and how important it was in Stark/Lannister confrontation.

3. She didn't know about him betraying Ned.

4. She didn't know about dagger.

The lion's share of LF's crimes against Starks were unknown for her. So, she did learn a lot of new things. 

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4 hours ago, Lorathi said:

I feel like we're supposed to see it as the student finally surpassing the master. But much like the infamous Jaime-Cersei sex scene by Joffrey's corpse, what they intended to show is not what they actually showed. Sansa brought Littlefinger down by admitting what she already knew he did. She knew he killed Lysa and she knew he sold her to the Boltons. She never needed to do anything other than openly state those facts to get him lawfully executed. Jon would have killed him before he left for either deed.

She didn't learn anything new. The whole "Littlefinger is plotting against Arya" reveal is ridiculous. Sansa already knew that Littlefinger uses everyone as pawns in his schemes, and has no conscience. By acting as if she just discovered his duplicitous nature, the show makes her look stupid.

However, she heaped a couple more accusations that she could only have learned from Bran - in the show, Lysa Arryn didn't confess murdering Jon Arryn and accusing the Lannisters at LF's behest, and Sansa had no way of knowing the circumstances of Ned's arrest. Arya's knowledge about the lie that the dagger was Tyrion's could only have come from Bran, too, so here we have a link of both sisters talking to Bran about LF. And then we have Sansa's statement about playing a little game to see what people are up to, and that LF has shown his worst, trying to drive a wedge between her and Arya - meaning, at least some of her arguments with Arya must have been staged as a test of LF's reaction. I think that Sansa resorted to this tactics because she felt genuinely indebted to LF for bringing the forces of the Vale, and perhaps also because if his proclamations of love, so she wanted to see for herself what he would do. Plus, in her - highly commendable - disposal of Ramsay, she showed she had no qualms about performing vengeance with her enemy's own tools, so in this light, engaging LF in a game that would bring him down at the moment when he not only never suspects but when he feels already victorious, was deliciously mean.

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29 minutes ago, Nikki Pat said:

So, any chance of Sansa and Tyrion hooking up in season 8? After all, it seems like he's the only man that's actually nice to her throughout her entire ordeal. Thoughts?

I do admit that in terms of TV show (not the books), it did cross my mind. I can't wait for Jon, Dany and Tyrion to face Stark pack. It would be amazing to see how they interact as those 6 are the heroes of the saga. 

As for Tyrion and Sansa, it would be interesting clash of the Hands. I can see them dealing with the ramifications of the "ice and fire" pairing. Their paths led back to Winterfell, where it all started. Unless, of course, NK comes before Dany's armies so they have to find refuge somewhere else. 

If the ending is Tyrion/Sansa, it would make some tolstoyean sense .That said, Sansa ruling WF in her own name, without husband (if that makes her happy) is perfectly fine with me. 

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11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Perhaps I'm giving the showrunners too much benefit, but isn't pretending especially in privacy very much in line with LF's own lessons? You know, always keep up the lie, especially when alone because you never know who might be listening?

But why?  They didn't need to create a conspiracy to get Littlefinger, they could have just killed him at any time.  Linda said in her review that the only people they could have been playing a game on is the viewer if that's what they were doing.

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14 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

Arya's reply was just as badly written "I knew Id never be as good a Lady as you, so I had to become something else"...that makes it sound like the only reason Arya didnt become a Lady was because of Sansa, when in reality Arya was never going to be a proper Lady. It wouldn't have mattered if Sansa had died early on and Arya was eldest surviving female Stark...Arya's whole character arc is based on identity and knowing who she is deep down. At no point anywhere in book or show was she ever even remotely interested in becoming a Lady. She greatly preferred the idea of being a Lord and ruling or being a great fighter as opposed to being a proper Lady. Sansa had no part in it.

Well, no. We learn in Arya's very first POV that she feels as if Sansa got all the graces and there was "nothing left" for her, and that Arya resents this deeply:

Quote

It wasn't fair. Sansa had everything. Sansa was two years older; maybe by the time Arya had been born, there had been nothing left. Often it felt that way. Sansa could sew and dance and sing. She wrote poetry. She knew how to dress. She played the high harp and the bells. Worse, she was beautiful. Sansa had gotten their mother's fine high cheekbones and the thick auburn hair of the Tullys. Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface, and neigh whenever she came near. It hurt that the one thing Arya could do better than her sister was ride a horse. Well, that and manage a household.

Just like in the show, she feels as if she can never measure up to Sansa in the lady department, an impression which Catelyn and Septa Mordane did nothing to dispel. If she didn't have Septa Mordane chastising her for her shortcomings and comparing her unfavourably to Sansa all the time, she might have had a different outlook, but let's not pretend that Arya feeling she can never measure up to Sansa when it comes to being a lady is a show-only creation. It's not.

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6 hours ago, Nikki Pat said:

So, any chance of Sansa and Tyrion hooking up in season 8? After all, it seems like he's the only man that's actually nice to her throughout her entire ordeal. Thoughts?

Jon, Theon and Pod (as far as I can tell) have been nice to her at varying points, too. Not that I think she'll wind up with any of them, either, just saying that Tyrion doesn't have the monopoly on having been nice to Sansa.

D&D seem to be positioning Sansa as the steely and very single Lady of Winterfell. I even wonder if that's one of the reasons they swapped in Sansa for Jeyne Poole in the ADWD storyline: they knew Sansa was going to end up single and thought that the rape storyline would justify that choice. And that would be a sensible endgame for her that many have been predicting for years, so why not?

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