Risto

Discussing Sansa XXXIII: Pack survived

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Posted (edited)

On 8/28/2017 at 7:18 AM, Gaz0680 said:

It was all a play for Littlefinger, so he would think he was succeeding in turning the sisters against each other.

Again, the problem was very little of the Winterfell plot was explained onscreen....most of it is left up to the viewers to fill in the gaps, interpret the scenes and work out what the character's motivations are...and that's a failing of the writing. 

In two episodes (5&6) the writers destroyed Arya's whole character for many people on this forum....and a big part of that was the way those people interpreted the scenes between Arya and Sansa. Some (including me) interpreted the scenes differently and felt Arya had her own clear motivations for those actions to help alert Sansa, without letting Littlefinger know (so just outright talking about it not much of an option).

 

It was all not a play for LF, that makes zero sense. The conflict between Sansa and Arya was legitimate, although I don't think Arya ever had any intentions of harming Sansa. After the LF speech about how to determine a person motives that you need to imagine "the worst possible Scenario" Sansa had an epiphany. It is then she conspired off screen with Arya, and later verified with Bran, the accusations and proof against LF. 

Are we to believe that the sisters were merely acting out the two major scenes in which they had conflict ( first Aray with the letter to Rob, Later Sansa after discovering the faces), purely for the benefit they thought LF was watching them? Even when one of the scenes was behind closed doors? If this is what they were doing, there would only be need for words, not facial expressions of true shock. 

Arya might be a good actress, but Sansa could never sell it. Sure the trial was a setup, but it all came into play much later, and was never a season long ploy. There was no point in this, they already had Bran, they could have cut his throat the episode after Bran returned.

Edited by Error-504

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I dont think the arguments in episode 5 were faked. They were real. 

Episode 6 is a different story. Sansa snooping on Arya was real. She was looking for the scroll and was worried what Arya might do with it (especially since Arya had replied "I don't know yet" when she flat out asked her earlier).

The Game of Faces and Arya's apparent threat, however, was definitely not real. Arya was sending Sansa a message and testing her, nothing more. There was no threat to Sansa involved. 

Sansa would have realised after the Game of Faces that Arya was no danger to her. She was snooping in Aryas room and Arya caught her. They were alone, Arya was armed and from watching the fight with Brienne Sansa knew Arya was skilled and dangerous. Arya could have hurt or killed her then and there and Sansa, not being a fighter, couldnt have done anything to stop her.

Anyone who thought Arya genuinely meant to harm or was even considering harming Sansa in that scene wasn't paying attention.

Furthermore, the whole "trial" was a farce. Arya already knew the target was Littlefinger well before she walked into the great hall. 

Hell she walked in with the catspaw dagger on her hip, the same weapon we last saw her give to Sansa, hilt first, and then leave the room in episode 6.

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12 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

I dont think the arguments in episode 5 were faked. They were real. 

Episode 6 is a different story. Sansa snooping on Arya was real. She was looking for the scroll and was worried what Arya might do with it (especially since Arya had replied "I don't know yet" when she flat out asked her earlier).

The Game of Faces and Arya's apparent threat, however, was definitely not real. Arya was sending Sansa a message and testing her, nothing more. There was no threat to Sansa involved. 

Sansa would have realised after the Game of Faces that Arya was no danger to her. She was snooping in Aryas room and Arya caught her. They were alone, Arya was armed and from watching the fight with Brienne Sansa knew Arya was skilled and dangerous. Arya could have hurt or killed her then and there and Sansa, not being a fighter, couldnt have done anything to stop her.

Anyone who thought Arya genuinely meant to harm or was even considering harming Sansa in that scene wasn't paying attention.

Furthermore, the whole "trial" was a farce. Arya already knew the target was Littlefinger well before she walked into the great hall. 

Hell she walked in with the catspaw dagger on her hip, the same weapon we last saw her give to Sansa, hilt first, and then leave the room in episode 6.

I can go along with most of this, Sansa might have then realized that Arya wasn't a threat to her, but I don't think the Littlefinger setup came into play until after the LF speech to Sansa. But yes, the trial was a setup up from the get go, Most in attendance were in on it, most importantly Lord Royce. Many on here believe that LF was being setup from the moment Arya arrived, and that is just nonsensical. 

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So, based on the deleted scenes from the last episode, there was no conspiracy. Just as with every honeypot, it turned out that what we saw on screen was exactly what was going on, with no mystery and intrigue involved. 

So much for Sandra and/or Arya playing LF and so much for the conflict between the sisters being staged/not real. What you see is what you get. 

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6 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

So, based on the deleted scenes from the last episode, there was no conspiracy. Just as with every honeypot, it turned out that what we saw on screen was exactly what was going on, with no mystery and intrigue involved. 

So much for Sandra and/or Arya playing LF and so much for the conflict between the sisters being staged/not real. What you see is what you get. 

Which deleted scenes? Can you post a link? Because, some time before the trial, Arya got the dagger back from Sansa.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Which deleted scenes? Can you post a link? Because, some time before the trial, Arya got the dagger back from Sansa.

https://www.hypable.com/game-of-thrones-season-7-arya-sansa-littlefinger-bran/

Quote

Hempstead-Wright details a cut scene from the finale, in which Sansa approaches Bran to ask for his help:

“Basically, as far as I know, the story was that it suddenly occurred to Sansa that she had a huge CCTV department at her discretion and it might be a good idea to check with him first before she guts her own sister. So she goes to Bran, and Bran tells her everything she needs to know, and she’s like, ‘Oh, shit’.”

So yeah, while it seems like they might have coordinated before the trial, if so it was literally only just before and all the previous scenes should be taken at face value.

ETA: I don't think Arya having the dagger needs an explanation/necessitates coordination before the trial. It was used to prove a point during their conversation, but there's no reason to believe Sansa kept it. She seemed pretty uncomfortable even holding it in that scene and Bram gave it to Arya. Nor did Arya imply Sansa should keep it and we don't see Sansa wearing it afterwards. It's been with Arya all along, who might or might not have been prewarned about LF's trial.

Edited by Maid So Fair

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Thanks for the links.

Sheesh, that's terrible writing! So Bran had known all along but never told anyone? Sansa never learned a thing, to be manipulated by LF again? Pffft.

But Arya still needed to talk either to Bran or to Sansa before the trial because she must have learned about LF's lie about the dagger somehow.

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On 8/29/2017 at 11:45 AM, Newstar said:

Jon, Theon and Pod (as far as I can tell) have been nice to her at varying points, too. Not that I think she'll wind up with any of them, either, just saying that Tyrion doesn't have the monopoly on having been nice to Sansa.

D&D seem to be positioning Sansa as the steely and very single Lady of Winterfell. I even wonder if that's one of the reasons they swapped in Sansa for Jeyne Poole in the ADWD storyline: they knew Sansa was going to end up single and thought that the rape storyline would justify that choice. And that would be a sensible endgame for her that many have been predicting for years, so why not?

 

First post on here, finally!

I too see Sansa ruling in the North as a queen on her own.  A lot of Sansa's earlier story is drawn from Elizabeth of York, but in the books once she gets to the Vale her story becomes a bit more like that of Queen Elizabeth I in her teenage years.  If this is something that D&D picked up on from the books and decided to work into the show finally, it seems to be going very much in line with what GRRM likely had in mind for her character after he wrote AFFC.  If Sansa rules as queen in the North, she'll be single, just like Elizabeth I.  

 

Sansa and Tyrion getting together afterwards makes little sense since that was a machination of Tywin so that the Lannisters could have control in the North.  None of the Starks have any need for that unless the Lannisters wind up as the victors, unlikely seeing as there is already a prophecy about Cersei's fate.  

 

In the books I could see Sansa taking on the Hound as a lover before the end since both characters think about each other an awful lot, but this is not something the show has established much so I doubt it will happen there.  I do hope that they at least make him her protector again as a nod to the whole "get her a dog, she'll be happier for it" quote from back in season/book one.  

 

 

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5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Thanks for the links.

Sheesh, that's terrible writing! So Bran had known all along but never told anyone? Sansa never learned a thing, to be manipulated by LF again? Pffft.

But Arya still needed to talk either to Bran or to Sansa before the trial because she must have learned about LF's lie about the dagger somehow.

No worries. :thumbsup:

I would imagine that Sansa talked to Arya after she found out the truth from Bran, but it doesn't seem to have been considered important enough and scene to make it on screen, which just why. Everything in this plot is just so unearned.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Thanks for the links.

Sheesh, that's terrible writing! So Bran had known all along but never told anyone? Sansa never learned a thing, to be manipulated by LF again? Pffft.

But Arya still needed to talk either to Bran or to Sansa before the trial because she must have learned about LF's lie about the dagger somehow.

Yeah, for something so basic as a triangle where one party is trying to turn the other parties against each other they did a terrible job.  They probably cut the scene because they thought it was more dramatic without a reveal prior to the execution scene.  However, that they shot the scene shows what the intention was: Sansa is too dumb to see through LF and too dumb to understand Arya's message to her about the dagger; Arya is too dumb to understand any diplomacy and so dumb she might kill her own sister and is obviously not very good at detecting lies from truth unless the viewer is supposed to believe that Sansa is a betrayer.

Probably better they left how the two sisters came together off screen, because the viewer can then interpret it in a more positve way for them, that they were putting on a show for LF, even though, having shot the Bran scene, it's obvious that is not what the actresses were directed to act...but that the death threats were supposed to be real.

Ugh. At least it's over now.

Edited by Cas Stark

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On 8/30/2017 at 0:55 AM, Dawn of Fyre said:

Was the rape itself the problem? Or that it was Sansa who was raped? Had the writers stuck with the Jeyne Poole story-line, she would have been raped, because she was raped in the books, and had worse stuff done to her, e.g. bestiality, etc.. Either way, this despicable act by Ramsay was going to happen / that it happens to one of the more central characters does not mean it is any less horrendous than if it had happened to Jeyne.

I felt bad for both Sansa and Jeyne :(

Let we not rehash this as it won't end good for any of us :( The rape ticked too many wrong boxes in order for it to be just about Sansa and not Jeyne. What happened to Sansa was awful. What happened to Jeyne was awful. It is not a pissing contest and whenever I am reminded of those scenes from the books, I am utterly horrified. That said, as much as it is disgusting, the same rules don't apply for Sansa and Jeyne.

The biggest problem with Sansa's rape was how it was used in her story. It was something to make her stronger, something that she had to endure in order to become a player. Empowerment through rape is one of the worst tropes, one of the most disgusting sexist tropes there are. That is why two years ago, the outcry was so loud. Not because it was just a rape, but what position it had in Sansa's arc. 

10 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah, for something so basic as a triangle where one party is trying to turn the other parties against each other they did a terrible job.  They probably cut the scene because they thought it was more dramatic without a reveal prior to the execution scene.  However, that they shot the scene shows what the intention was: Sansa is too dumb to see through LF and too dumb to understand Arya's message to her about the dagger; Arya is too dumb to understand any diplomacy and so dumb she might kill her own sister and is obviously not very good at detecting lies from truth unless the viewer is supposed to believe that Sansa is a betrayer.

Yeah, you are right. That said, I am not sure whether deleted scene should be take into account. If we do take it, and it seems that that was their intention, it seems that everyone involved was terribly stupid. 

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4 hours ago, Risto said:

Yeah, you are right. That said, I am not sure whether deleted scene should be take into account. If we do take it, and it seems that that was their intention, it seems that everyone involved was terribly stupid. 

Yeah, especially the writers.

Apparently in this deleted scene, Sansa was going to have Arya killed until she suddenly decided to check with Bran first, then he reveals all about LF and she then targets him instead.

Lets just examine that for a minute.

If this deleted scene was included, we are expected to believe that Sansa was ready to have her own sister killed, essentially after Arya caught Sansa snooping in her room alone. That was the perfect opportunity for Arya to kill or harm Sansa. Instead, Arya told her about her Faceless Men abilities and the Game of Faces, then handed Sansa a dagger, hilt first, and left the room, making it clear Arya did not wish Sansa any harm. 

If Sansa had then ordered Arya killed, it would have been MURDER, plain and simple, not self defence. Arya posed no immediate danger to her. 

While killing off people who are imagined or potential threats may be all well and good for Cersei, that isn't Sansa. She doesn't murder someone because she is suspicious of their motives. Sansa was uncertain about Arya at that point I believe, but had not pegged her as an enemy. It would have taken a LOT more than what Arya actually did on screen for Sansa to decide Arya needed to die.

Arya would have needed to commit actual treason or make herself a true enemy (for example, murdering innocent citizens of Winterfell; or killing Sansa's guards), but she hadn't done any of that.

Thank God that deleted scene didn't make it in, because if it had, Sansa's character would have been completely ruined and those comparing her to Cersei now might actually have a solid basis to their argument.

 

Edited by Gaz0680

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15 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

Yeah, especially the writers.

Apparently in this deleted scene, Sansa was going to have Arya killed until she suddenly decided to check with Bran first, then he reveals all about LF and she then targets him instead.

Lets just examine that for a minute.

If this deleted scene was included, we are expected to believe that Sansa was ready to have her own sister killed, essentially after Arya caught Sansa snooping in her room alone. That was the perfect opportunity for Arya to kill or harm Sansa. Instead, Arya told her about her Faceless Men abilities and the Game of Faces, then handed Sansa a dagger, hilt first, and left the room, making it clear Arya did not wish Sansa any harm. 

If Sansa had then ordered Arya killed, it would have been MURDER, plain and simple, not self defence. Arya posed no immediate danger to her. 

While killing off people who are imagined or potential threats may be all well and good for Cersei, that isn't Sansa. She doesn't murder someone because she is suspicious of their motives. Sansa was uncertain about Arya at that point I believe, but had not pegged her as an enemy. It would have taken a LOT more than what Arya actually did on screen for Sansa to decide Arya needed to die.

Arya would have needed to commit actual treason or make herself a true enemy (for example, murdering innocent citizens of Winterfell; or killing Sansa's guards), but she hadn't done any of that.

Thank God that deleted scene didn't make it in, because if it had, Sansa's character would have been completely ruined and those comparing her to Cersei now might actually have a solid basis to their argument.

 

Very true. 

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They can't even fan service right.  If they would have really wanted to fan service, why not have Ghost present in the room as well.  That would have been awesome.

 

did anyone else notice how much Arya looked like Ned, hair and dress, standing straight, no one diverted their eyes when she swung the sword either.  

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18 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

did anyone else notice how much Arya looked like Ned, hair and dress, standing straight, no one diverted their eyes when she swung the sword either.  

That's a great point - she was delivering justice the Stark way, after all.

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8 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

did anyone else notice how much Arya looked like Ned, hair and dress, standing straight, no one diverted their eyes when she swung the sword either.  

Even though there were many things I hated about this, the way they executed him showed incredible unity in that Northern/Stark way. They did it together, one pack = one soul. I like how Sansa didn't even allow LF to communicate with her and to weasel his way out. I like how they complemented each other and how they encircled him. Arya may have done the deed but it was all three of them who killed him. 

It is such a contrast to the Lannister trio who is utterly dysfunctional. And that is why their pride is dead.

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3 hours ago, Risto said:

Even though there were many things I hated about this, the way they executed him showed incredible unity in that Northern/Stark way. They did it together, one pack = one soul. I like how Sansa didn't even allow LF to communicate with her and to weasel his way out. I like how they complemented each other and how they encircled him. Arya may have done the deed but it was all three of them who killed him. 

It is such a contrast to the Lannister trio who is utterly dysfunctional. And that is why their pride is dead.

:agree:

One thing I am wondering: to what extent was this season's sisterly drama the show authors' invention? I don't think book Arya would be so psychopathic towards Sansa, or book Sansa so dumb, but there is a reason why Sansa might feel genuinely threatened if Arya ever learned: that little detail which Sansa either never realized, or completely shut out of her mind - that she told Cersei about Ned's plans. I don't think we've heard about it since ASOS when Tyrion reflects on her betrayal of her own father; does LF know? Because that would definitely trigger quite some enmity, in a way more plausible basis than what the show tried to do, if LF spilled the beans to Arya.

Edited by Ygrain

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On 29.8.2017 at 5:28 PM, Lothar said:

But why?  They didn't need to create a conspiracy to get Littlefinger, they could have just killed him at any time.  Linda said in her review that the only people they could have been playing a game on is the viewer if that's what they were doing.

Nope, they couldn't have killed Littlefinger at any time. Littlefinger was a guest in their home, one who was vital in bringing in the army that saved their collective asses in the Battle of the Bastards. The fact that everybody knew/suspected that he was not to be trusted, that he had some dirt on him and that he was probably playing his own games was not enough to outweigh that until they had put together a case that condemded him in everybody's mind. Not least of all Sweetrobin. 

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On 28.8.2017 at 10:32 PM, Daske said:

Then why bother with a  story at all? Have it written by box-ticking accountants. Of course they have the ability to write a story but then where is the drama if we know everything that is going to happen in advance? What's wrong with using our imagination to fill-in the blanks?

It doesn't have to be one thing.

Sansa was (quite rightly) having some doubts about her strange and dangerous sister.
Arya was (quite rightly) suspicious about her haughty sister who is hanging out with Littlefinger.
Siblings argue and fight; they just do.
Sansa never has any intention of siding with Littlefinger, she played along to learn more and to get Littlefinger off-guard.
Some discussions between the siblings were off-screen.
Some actions may have been staged.
Arya was intentionally lying to Sansa when playing the Game of Faces. She was never really threatening her life.
The whole confrontation with Arya was set-up so that LF was caught on the hop had no way to escape.
Arya didn't just kill him earlier in his sleep because at first she needed to know where Sansa stood. And also...
Sansa didn't just have him murdered in his sleep because she wanted to plan a public (as much as possible) confrontation where she could accuse him of his crimes and in part absolve her father of his.
Sansa and Arya (and Bran) passed the dagger around as a way of sharing their family bond - the knife is a reminder of their shared enemies and how their family had been wronged.

All or some of that can be true in places. I don't understand the need to have how that was decided or planned served up on plate. Most of it is obvious in hindsight from the pieces we were shown and it still allowed for a really satisfactory twist. Does it really matter that Sansa gave Arya back the dagger at 2.35pm the day before over a spot of light lunch?

You cite the books, yet you have to fill in a huge number of blanks there throughout the series because of the PoV structure. We simply don't get given many of the hidden scenes you are asking for in the books either because they are happening off-page between non-PoV characters and/or we hear about them third hand.

 

Well said.

D&D are really horrible writers to leave us room to use our imagination and leave some things vague for different interpretations.;)

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Yeah, there are such things as editing, constructing narrative, and consistent characterisation that the Winterfell plot completely failed at. I'm not going to argue about it because that would be putting more effort into it than the writing staff of game of thrones, and I'm not getting paid.

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