Why didn't Littlefinger bring up Sansa's complicity?

[Winter prince]

41 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Nice story, Troll.

Hahah thanks for beating me to it.

[Winter prince]

9 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

Very likely imo. I'm not buying this "Sansa+Arya play LF for half the season because they have nothing better to do and because they think he'll try to pit them against each other because he has nothing better to do" theory.

 

Or he could say that yes, he betrayed Ned but he remained loyal to the king while Ned was practically doing a treason. Yes, Joffrey was a bastard born from an incest, so he wasn't really the heir, but LF could say that he didn't know it, Joffrey was his king, he remained loyal and helped him defend the traitors and that's it.

 

So basically he knew that he was going to die and if he tried to drag Sansa down with him / sway her, he was probably going to die as well, although there was a tiny chance that she could show some mercy after him pointing out that she agreed to marry Ramsay, helped him cover Lysa's murder, was 3 times saved by him and stuff. So he prefered to do nothing. I'm sorry but this doesn't make much sense to me. He had nothing to lose at that point, it literally couldn't go any worse, it could go only better.

I can only go with speculation with this, but my humble theory is that this is the first time we've seen Littlefinger caught unaware.

He went into the great hall thinking he had won and was one step closer to installing Sansa as the permanent fixture in the North.  And I think the actor did a good job of showing the wheels spinning and desperation that comes with a meticulous schemer being put on the spot to improvise.

Coupled with the fact that Bran's knowledge of conversations and moments intimidated him.

[The Dew]

Under Duress

[Padrino]

1 hour ago, Nerevanin said:

Very likely imo. I'm not buying this "Sansa+Arya play LF for half the season because they have nothing better to do and because they think he'll try to pit them against each other because he has nothing better to do" theory.

I just watched the episode for the second time and I don't think Arya and maybe Bran are even in on the court-room twist.   The next time we see Sansa, after Littlefinger has implied that Arya is there to kill her, she's looking out thoughtfully over the courtyard, weighing things up, and then she tells a guard to 'Have my sister brought to the great hall'. That's the exact moment she decides to do away with Littlefinger imo, and neither Arya or Bran are around when she does it.

Then when the 'trial' begins, the show made a point of Arya watching the door being closed, and eyeing up the guards around her. It may just be the show misdirecting us to add to the 'drama', but I'm sure she doesn't know what's going on.

Also note that after the trial, when Arya and Sansa are talking on the battlements, there's no mention of them plotting or outmanouevring Littlefinger beforehand, because they weren't.

 

 

[TwiceBorn]

Didn't enjoy it that much as expected.

The twist was nice, but too much time have passed and too much was achieved by Bran deus ex machina.

[Nerevanin]

4 hours ago, Winter prince said:

I can only go with speculation with this, but my humble theory is that this is the first time we've seen Littlefinger caught unaware.

He went into the great hall thinking he had won and was one step closer to installing Sansa as the permanent fixture in the North.  And I think the actor did a good job of showing the wheels spinning and desperation that comes with a meticulous schemer being put on the spot to improvise.

Coupled with the fact that Bran's knowledge of conversations and moments intimidated him.

Well yeah, that's clear. I just think that the old LF would have three back up plans prepared for such a plotwist and he would at least try to fight. On the other hand, Season 5-7 LF fell on his knees and said that he loved Sansa. Which is what annoys me about the scene. Sure, I don't expect him to have a prepared 30 minutes long speech but at least he could react to what Sansa was saying. Like, Sansa: "You sold to Boltons.", LF: "You agreed to go to WF and marry Ramsay, remember?", Sansa: "You mudered Lysa.", LF: "Didn't you swear that she committed suicide?"

But I suppose that I can accept that simply he was caught so off guard that he couldn't come up even with this (but I'm not very happy about it).

 

2 hours ago, Padrino said:

I just watched the episode for the second time and I don't think Arya and maybe Bran are even in on the court-room twist.   The next time we see Sansa, after Littlefinger has implied that Arya is there to kill her, she's looking out thoughtfully over the courtyard, weighing things up, and then she tells a guard to 'Have my sister brought to the great hall'. That's the exact moment she decides to do away with Littlefinger imo, and neither Arya or Bran are around when she does it.

Then when the 'trial' begins, the show made a point of Arya watching the door being closed, and eyeing up the guards around her. It may just be the show misdirecting us to add to the 'drama', but I'm sure she doesn't know what's going on.

Also note that after the trial, when Arya and Sansa are talking on the battlements, there's no mention of them plotting or outmanouevring Littlefinger beforehand, because they weren't.

I think that Sansa decided to get rid of LF after the little game conversation when she realizes he wants to get rid of Arya. But then off-screen, I suppose that Sansa told Bran and Arya about the plan. For example when Arya says "the dagger was yours", this imo hints that she was prepared for it. Also, Arya doesn't seem surprised at all when Sansa calls out LF.

The only thing that kind of bothers me is if Bran told Sansa about LF betraying Ned earlier or if Sansa decided to kill LF after little game convo and then went to Bran like "hey, I want to kill that guy, can you check with your magic sight if he did something against our family that I can blame him for?"

The mention of Arya and Sansa not mentioning plotting against LF is a good point (although I apply it to no several episodes long plot existing, not to Sansa not informing Arya about her plan to kill LF).

 

[Dragonslack]

...because dumb and dumber didn't write it like that of course. This whole scheme exists only for the payoff of stark siblings together getting revenge on now useless (bad) guy. Remember they write (badly) only for the payoffs, they don't care for the hows or the means. Short attention span viewers don't care for the details.

Also, these scenes exist because these actors had to show up and do something for a few episodes. There is now a small group of actors that are very well payed and must show up to do something every episode, anything really. Notice that I said actors not characters, hence the out of character happenings and very strange plots. The same reason sansa was raped.

LF was not outsmarted and he had no reason to dismiss his number one rule: never let them know your motives. By now he would have put a crony in charge of the Vale armies, he would not have spared that lord.

 

 

[Cas Stark]

It would have been more satisfying and much more in character for LF to mount a competent defense, for the audience even to think at one point....maybe he talks himself out of it....and then have Sansa best him in her analysis.

But, such a scene would take more than 10 minutes to write, so we got the master player just losing it and ending up babbling like a fool before he dies.  Pretty underwhelming overall.

[Tagganaro]

1 hour ago, Nerevanin said:

Well yeah, that's clear. I just think that the old LF would have three back up plans prepared for such a plotwist and he would at least try to fight. On the other hand, Season 5-7 LF fell on his knees and said that he loved Sansa. Which is what annoys me about the scene. Sure, I don't expect him to have a prepared 30 minutes long speech but at least he could react to what Sansa was saying. Like, Sansa: "You sold to Boltons.", LF: "You agreed to go to WF and marry Ramsay, remember?", Sansa: "You mudered Lysa.", LF: "Didn't you swear that she committed suicide?"

But I suppose that I can accept that simply he was caught so off guard that he couldn't come up even with this (but I'm not very happy about it).

 

I think that Sansa decided to get rid of LF after the little game conversation when she realizes he wants to get rid of Arya. But then off-screen, I suppose that Sansa told Bran and Arya about the plan. For example when Arya says "the dagger was yours", this imo hints that she was prepared for it. Also, Arya doesn't seem surprised at all when Sansa calls out LF.

The only thing that kind of bothers me is if Bran told Sansa about LF betraying Ned earlier or if Sansa decided to kill LF after little game convo and then went to Bran like "hey, I want to kill that guy, can you check with your magic sight if he did something against our family that I can blame him for?"

The mention of Arya and Sansa not mentioning plotting against LF is a good point (although I apply it to no several episodes long plot existing, not to Sansa not informing Arya about her plan to kill LF).

 

There was nothing LF could do at that point but play to Sansa's "sympathy" for him.  There was no defense once he was made aware of Bran's involvement and the fact Bran knew about everything, including the knife to Ned's throat.  Personally, I loved this scene and thought it was perfectly in-character that LF would grovel pathetically like that once his schemes were outed.  He's a guy who has always been ten steps ahead so you've never really had to see him adapt to a dangerous situation like that- remember in Season 1/2 when he stupidly mouthed off to Cersei and she just threatened to kill him?

I think again, perfectly done that LF would have a blind spot to Sansa and he'd have nothing at all to prepare for Bran's intimate knowledge of all his treachery.

As to your 2nd points, yeah I was a little confused by the timeline of when Sansa decided to kill LF and when Arya and Bran were made aware of it, but I think we can infer that it happened when you said- right after the "little game" convo where LF overextended and got caught in an obvious lie about Arya wanting to become Lady of Winterfell- something Sansa knows is false.  She then went to Bran and Arya and planned it out.

[Tadco26]

Why didn't Littlefinger even ask for Trial by Combat?  Surely he could pay to have someone represent him, and would already have some fully capable fighter directly under his employment being the planner he is...?

[Padrino]

7 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Why didn't Littlefinger even ask for Trial by Combat?  Surely he could pay to have someone represent him, and would already have some fully capable fighter directly under his employment being the planner he is...?

I'm no expert in these matters, but trial by combat is something you would offer in place of a not guilty plea.  LF basically confessed to the crimes so it ruled trial by combat out.  That's not to say that I'm happy with him giving up just like that, but he couldn't admit to the crimes and then demand trial by combat, it's one or the other.

[Tadco26]

Point being why would he confess to anything rather than ask for trial by combat?  I know the real answer is the writers wanted this scene to play out the way they wrote it, logic be damned, it's just something I haven't seen other people mention.

[El Guapo]

Well technically King Tommen outlawed trial by combat last season.  Not that the North needs to recognize that.

[Nerevanin]

29 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Why didn't Littlefinger even ask for Trial by Combat?  Surely he could pay to have someone represent him, and would already have some fully capable fighter directly under his employment being the planner he is...?

a good point.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that in the books LF seems to be skilled in throwing daggers. So demand a trial by combat, choose a dagger as your weapon, aim, throw it and... we have a winner! 

 

48 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

There was nothing LF could do at that point but play to Sansa's "sympathy" for him.  There was no defense once he was made aware of Bran's involvement and the fact Bran knew about everything, including the knife to Ned's throat.  Personally, I loved this scene and thought it was perfectly in-character that LF would grovel pathetically like that once his schemes were outed.  He's a guy who has always been ten steps ahead so you've never really had to see him adapt to a dangerous situation like that- remember in Season 1/2 when he stupidly mouthed off to Cersei and she just threatened to kill him?

I think again, perfectly done that LF would have a blind spot to Sansa and he'd have nothing at all to prepare for Bran's intimate knowledge of all his treachery.

While I see what you mean when you say that it seems in-character for LF to break down like this. However, the problem with all this is that for a reason everybody takes Bran's words as a holy bible. Like what he says is true and that's it, there's no discussion about it. While in fact it was just Bran's word against LF's one, Sansa had no real proof, no real witness. Remember the scene when LF talks with Bran and Bran repeats "chaos is a ladder"? From that moment LF knows that there is something wrong with Bran, that he knows things he shouldn't know. And yet he doesn't bother to deal in any way with it? Like, ask Sansa about the visions and then quickly pack his bags and leave? It's just wierd and very likely bad writing.

[El Guapo]

"In the name of Jon Snow, King of the North. I, Sansa Stark, Lady of Winterfell, hereby sentence you to death"

I wish they added that prior to Arya's throat slash.

[Padrino]

7 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Point being why would he confess to anything rather than ask for trial by combat?  I know the real answer is the writers wanted this scene to play out the way they wrote it, logic be damned, it's just something I haven't seen other people mention.

I've never been one to criticise or look for faults in the writing.  I was still fairly happy with it up until this season, but the difference this year is jarring.  He confessed because the plot demanded it, simple as.  And another thing, when Arya and Sansa are talking on the battlements, Arya says something like 'I could never have survived what you're been through' to Sansa.  They've never discussed what Sansa has been through on the show.  Sansa hinted at it, but there was never a scene in which she went into explicit detail, so when they did they have that particular conversation?  Before the trial?  After?  it just makes it feel like there's a whole scene missing.  I wouldn't usually bother with such an apparently trivial detail, but now it has me thinking maybe they were plotting all along, and the very sensible conclusion I came to was not so sensible at all.  It is probably still the correct conclusion, but it's all just so messy and contrived for dramatic effect.

[Tagganaro]

9 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

 

While I see what you mean when you say that it seems in-character for LF to break down like this. However, the problem with all this is that for a reason everybody takes Bran's words as a holy bible. Like what he says is true and that's it, there's no discussion about it. While in fact it was just Bran's word against LF's one, Sansa had no real proof, no real witness. Remember the scene when LF talks with Bran and Bran repeats "chaos is a ladder"? From that moment LF knows that there is something wrong with Bran, that he knows things he shouldn't know. And yet he doesn't bother to deal in any way with it? Like, ask Sansa about the visions and then quickly pack his bags and leave? It's just wierd and very likely bad writing.

This is a fair point.  I'd argue 2 things in response.  The first is sort of a cop-out, but I still think it's plausible.  It's simply the convention of storytelling.  You have a sort of omniscient character whose powers have been developed over the course of the story- you don't really have people questioning what he says as it's simply convention.  Also from a narrative standpoint is there really time or interest in having a "he said, she said" evidentiary debate to spare the life of a supporting character like LF?  But like I said, I'll admit this is sort of a cop-out meta argument.

I think more important to think about here is that there are essentially 2 people whose opinions matter in this scenario- Sansa as Lady of Winterfell and Lord Royce as LF's protector.  Sansa had already made up her mind by the time this scene started as she knows that what Bran says is true- this has been established when he showed her his omniscience with his comments about her wedding to Ramsay and his comments to Arya about her list.  Sansa knows Bran's word essentially is the truth.  As for Royce, once Sansa dropped the bomb about LF killing Lysa, something she was a witness to, LF was done.  Royce and the army of the Vale are loyal to the Arryns, not LF.  

As for your last point, yes I largely agree with the fact that LF not looking into Bran is a little suspect.  I can explain it away as him not really having options- he doesn't have anywhere to really go outside Winterfell assuming, which I think is a safe assumption, that he loves Sansa and wants to rule together with her.  So he played his one card which came pretty close to working by playing Sansa and Arya off each other.  

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

I think something was done where we couldn't see it as the audience.  I believe that Sansa would have said something to Royce prior to the "trial" so he wasn't completely blindsided by this information, especially since she lied to him in the Vale.  

One thing that I loved about that scene is how Sansa pointed out that LF did the same thing to Lysa and Cat, I only wish she would have said "In the name of the King in the North Jon Snow, I Sansa of House Stark, Lady of Winterfell sentence you to die..........Arya..." slice

[Tadco26]

16 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

. Remember the scene when LF talks with Bran and Bran repeats "chaos is a ladder"? From that moment LF knows that there is something wrong with Bran, that he knows things he shouldn't know. And yet he doesn't bother to deal in any way with it? Like, ask Sansa about the visions and then quickly pack his bags and leave? It's just wierd and very likely bad writing.

Or focus on eliminating Bran over Arya.  But then we go back to what was Littlefinger's plan anyway?  He has declined in power ever since he pointlessly betrayed the Lannisters to ally with the Boltons, who he then betrayed.  His most personal crime against Sansa was giving her to Ramsay which never made any sense in the first place.  Without that betrayal, he saved Sansa from her aunt who was about to push her out the moon door...  He saved her from King's Landing.  A more logical course would have been to skip the alliance with the Boltons which gained him absolutely nothing, and just come north with Sansa and re-take it with the armies of the Vale which he ended up doing after losing her trust anyway...

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

On 8/27/2017 at 10:26 PM, falcotron said:

First, I'm happy with the way they resolved the Winterfell plotline in general. Sansa choosing not to fight LF at his own game, or Arya's way, and instead doing it her way, as Lady of Winterfell—that's exactly where her character and this season's plot should have been leading. But I'm not entirely happy with one part of the way they did it.

The first thing Sansa accused LF of was murdering Lysa. But she abetted him in covering up that murder. And he could have said so, and derailed the entire trial.

I can maybe understand why he didn't. He's caught by surprise, he doesn't want to drag his beloved Sansa under the bus with him, he thinks he can still make this all work, etc.

But I can't understand why Sansa would be absolutely sure he wouldn't do it. Or what she could have planned if he had. Lie and say that she'd lied about Lysa's murder? Start playing the "I was a little girl a couple years ago" card right in the middle of trying to stand up as the noble and dignified lady to bring him down?

And the same is generally true for all the dirt that LF could have dumped on Sansa's head.

Also, I think it would have just been a stronger story for her character to lay everything on the table—admit that she abetted him, and that she'd also written the Robb letter out of fear, and so on—to strengthen the case against LF so there's no way to deny or ameliorate his guilt.* In-universe, the risk in putting it all out there, even in her own words at her own time, is significant, but it's still probably lower than the risk of blackmail, and worth doing. And out-of-universe, it's the perfect way to end the story about the things she did wrong out of fear.

---

* I assume the show wanted a pat happy ending to the plot, since they ended the season with it. That's easy. After LF's trial, Sansa says, "And now, Arya, it's up to you to decide whether to demand a trial for the crimes I've confessed to." And then Arya gives a big speech about how the crimes against the Starks cannot be forgiven or pardoned, and ends with "And that's why I demand that you remain as Lady of Winterfell and help bring Cersei down", and they hug and everyone lives happily ever after. But a realistic ending would have also been easy if that wanted that—Arya storms out, but meanwhile, Sansa weathers the storm and retains the loyalty of her men, and after a few months the sisters come to each understand and accept what the other one did, and make up.

I recall that it was a difficult decision for her but she was afraid she would be blamed for Lysa's murder. She was fresh on the run under accusations of having killed Joffrey. She had no way to know of the Lords of the Vale would send her back to Cersie. She choose to lie thinking it the safer option and planned to use it against LF at a later time of she needed.