falcotron

Why didn't Littlefinger bring up Sansa's complicity?

205 posts in this topic

First, I'm happy with the way they resolved the Winterfell plotline in general. Sansa choosing not to fight LF at his own game, or Arya's way, and instead doing it her way, as Lady of Winterfell—that's exactly where her character and this season's plot should have been leading. But I'm not entirely happy with one part of the way they did it.

The first thing Sansa accused LF of was murdering Lysa. But she abetted him in covering up that murder. And he could have said so, and derailed the entire trial.

I can maybe understand why he didn't. He's caught by surprise, he doesn't want to drag his beloved Sansa under the bus with him, he thinks he can still make this all work, etc.

But I can't understand why Sansa would be absolutely sure he wouldn't do it. Or what she could have planned if he had. Lie and say that she'd lied about Lysa's murder? Start playing the "I was a little girl a couple years ago" card right in the middle of trying to stand up as the noble and dignified lady to bring him down?

And the same is generally true for all the dirt that LF could have dumped on Sansa's head.

Also, I think it would have just been a stronger story for her character to lay everything on the table—admit that she abetted him, and that she'd also written the Robb letter out of fear, and so on—to strengthen the case against LF so there's no way to deny or ameliorate his guilt.* In-universe, the risk in putting it all out there, even in her own words at her own time, is significant, but it's still probably lower than the risk of blackmail, and worth doing. And out-of-universe, it's the perfect way to end the story about the things she did wrong out of fear.

---

* I assume the show wanted a pat happy ending to the plot, since they ended the season with it. That's easy. After LF's trial, Sansa says, "And now, Arya, it's up to you to decide whether to demand a trial for the crimes I've confessed to." And then Arya gives a big speech about how the crimes against the Starks cannot be forgiven or pardoned, and ends with "And that's why I demand that you remain as Lady of Winterfell and help bring Cersei down", and they hug and everyone lives happily ever after. But a realistic ending would have also been easy if that wanted that—Arya storms out, but meanwhile, Sansa weathers the storm and retains the loyalty of her men, and after a few months the sisters come to each understand and accept what the other one did, and make up.

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She could probably use the excuse of being under duress from LF or something like that. I don't doubt the Vale Lords would believe that LF was willing to murder a 15/16 year old girl if need be to retain his power. I'm not sure, tbh. Considering the whole groomed and manipulated by a pedophile thing, maybe Sansa gets some lee-way? Similar to how she might've been able to technically refuse to marry Ramsay but (I had a feeling) at least that LF wouldn't take no for an answer despite what she said.

 

I honestly don't know. The above is me trying to logic the unlogicable.

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Simple.  She played him to kill him, because she wanted to kill him like serial killers do, got tired of him and just needed a kill for the heck of it.  She would've worked her way through some twisted excuse.

In the end LF was killed for being Sansa's advisor and servant.  The ruler got tired of him and killed him.  The process was s farce like the rest of the WF scenes. 

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1 hour ago, Hoo said:

In the end LF was killed for being Sansa's advisor and servant.  The ruler got tired of him and killed him.  The process was s farce like the rest of the WF scenes. 

He was never her servant.  He was Lord Protector of the Vale of Arryn, and Lord of Harrenhal.  He was not subservient to her.  He was allied with the north.

Allied <> servant. 

Stop trolling. 

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Because team Stark has to win.

It was going down the hill with LF's character ever since Lysa's murder, in other words ever since they surpassed the books. LF, the great schemer and manipulator, tries to sway Sansa with "you weren't there". Suuuuuure, makes sense. I get that he didn't expect it to happen but I still don't think that this was all he was capable of come up with.

Sansa was right that he betrayed Ned but he could easily brush it off with "No, I didn't. It's the boy's word against mine, you have no proof and no witness." Sansa was right that he killed Lysa but her selective memory chose to omit that if he hadn't killed her, she would have killed Sansa. Basically, LF saved her life. Twice actually, because he later came with the Vale soldiers. Sansa bringing up the Boltons was just ridiculous. Yes, LF arranged it but Sansa agreed with it.

Although I liked the way the Stark children eventually stuck together and that it was Sansa who passed the sentence, I think that overall it was rather underwhelming and disappointing (when it comes to the arguments Sansa used and how LF practially didn't defend himself) and way too easy for the Stark to do it. At least if they had a real proof they he wanted to kill Arya or something. No. Basically they could have killed LF in the moment Bran entered Winterfell, but they left him wandering around Wintefell because they needed a "shocking" death in the season's finale. As I am thinking about it, they could have killed him right after Lysa's murder because everything he did after that accomplish absolutely nothing.

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1 hour ago, Pandean said:

She could probably use the excuse of being under duress from LF or something like that. I don't doubt the Vale Lords would believe that LF was willing to murder a 15/16 year old girl if need be to retain his power. I'm not sure, tbh. Considering the whole groomed and manipulated by a pedophile thing, maybe Sansa gets some lee-way? Similar to how she might've been able to technically refuse to marry Ramsay but (I had a feeling) at least that LF wouldn't take no for an answer despite what she said.

All of this sounds like great excuses to use if she'd come clean about everything, but it seems like if she said nothing, then LF raised her complicity, and then she suddenly started giving excuses for it, she'd go from the regal figure justly sentencing the sniveling cowardly murderer to kind of pathetic in the eyes of her court.

But maybe she could have pulled it off better than I'm imagining.

And at least you're trying to answer the question instead of just posting "lol sansa is teh evil" or  "lol the show sucks, that's why I watch it" like some people…

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She wrote a letter under duress, which Arya conveniently has, so where's the proof? Beyond that, what is she guilty of? Even Arya acknowledged it last episode.  Since plotting his disposal took place offscreen, equally plausible that Sansa and Arya could have addressed the letter's existence with Bronze Yohn in private. All LF had going for him was one letter that he let Arya find. That was his big mistake.

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I did not mind the scene, and the way things played out, and don't really agree with your criticism. I think Littlefinger's actions given the context make sense.

What Littlefinger cares about first and foremost is Littlefinger, and getting out alive. Littlefinger is not going to be happy to bring down Sansa with him... Littlefinger is going to be happy only if he survives, and gree to scheme another day.

And Littlefinger believes and understands immediately, and rightly so, that being on Sansa's good graces is the only way to survive the night. Antagonizing her is not going to help him. If there's one problem with the plot, is how weak Littlefinger's plot is, and how vulnerable he left his position.

Think about it. In reality, nobody really supported Littlefinger, other than Sansa. The Vale Lords do not really like Littlefinger who they see as a low-born upstart who is a bad influence over Robert, and only follow him because they are afraid of the influence he has over Robert. From the perspective of the Vale Lords they can't betray Littleginer, because they feel that so long as he is supported by Sansa, who is lady of Winterfell and Robert's cousin, that she can inform Robert of any treasonous actions against Littlefinger. But I always got the impression that if the Vale Lords were to feel that Sansa does not support Littlefinger, and that they have a chance to overthrow him, they would do so at first chance. Meanwhile, the Northern Lords will always support a Stark over an unknown stranger.

So at the end, telling on Sansa doesn't help Littlefinger, because nobody would care when faced with the prospect of overthrowing him, and because his best chance for survival is to stay in Sansa's good graces. But like I said, the only weakness in the plot for me, is how bad Littlefinger's plan is. He's surrounded by enemies, he has nobody that really trusts him, and hatces up a plan that can easily be thwarted by 5 minutes of conversation between the sisters. If anything, Littlefinger would have been better served by trying to get the two sister's together, and trying to make Arya like him, as that would consolidate his support amongst the Starks, and allow him to strengthen his hold over the Vale. He can then continue to court Sansa for a couple of years, marry her and get the North together with the Vale, and see how he can make that position stronger.

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I agree completely, but this is the huge problem with the TV show for book readers. If LF defends himself the scene takes too long and gets boring. This is why we don't get full storylines and character development and whole armies move without orders or motivation.

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I honestly dont think that Sansa had any clue of LF deceit until he taught her his "game", so it was a last resource kind of thing, Sansa didnt played LF, she did exactly what her father (worst player ever) would've done, charge him of every crime she has knowledge he committed, just what ned was planning to do back at KL, make everything public.. ultimately LF betrayal ended up fucking Ned's plan and cost him his head.. its only Poetic justice that LF met his fate at the hands of Ned's surviving children, but the fact that a fucking bad plan just like Ned's back at KL ended up condemning LF

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8 hours ago, falcotron said:

The first thing Sansa accused LF of was murdering Lysa. But she abetted him in covering up that murder. And he could have said so, and derailed the entire trial.

I can maybe understand why he didn't. He's caught by surprise, he doesn't want to drag his beloved Sansa under the bus with him, he thinks he can still make this all work, etc.

But I can't understand why Sansa would be absolutely sure he wouldn't do it. Or what she could have planned if he had. Lie and say that she'd lied about Lysa's murder? Start playing the "I was a little girl a couple years ago" card right in the middle of trying to stand up as the noble and dignified lady to bring him down?

And the same is generally true for all the dirt that LF could have dumped on Sansa's head.

 

5 hours ago, Pandean said:

She could probably use the excuse of being under duress from LF or something like that. I don't doubt the Vale Lords would believe that LF was willing to murder a 15/16 year old girl if need be to retain his power.

Why overcomplicate? The "trial" was devised as a show which ends with Littlefinger's death (so, for the Seven Kingdoms, the usual kind of trial). Sansa wouldn't have to "use excuses", to "playing cards" or whatever, she would simply told him to STFU. It would be mighty difficult for Littlefinger to "derail the trial" with all his teeth knocked out.

Westeros haven't caught up yet on the concept of "due process".

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Sand11751 said:

She wrote a letter under duress, which Arya conveniently has, so where's the proof? Beyond that, what is she guilty of? Even Arya acknowledged it last episode.  Since plotting his disposal took place offscreen, equally plausible that Sansa and Arya could have addressed the letter's existence with Bronze Yohn in private. All LF had going for him was one letter that he let Arya find. That was his big mistake.

 

Thats what I don't like.  This whole plot was done offscreen so the show writers could give the audience another gotcha moment.  I'm getting tired of the general lack of real story and substance just for gotcha moments.  But yeah eunoch sex for 10 minutes, yeah let's have that.  Dorne, more of please...sheesh.  

 

Im also disappointed that Sansa didn't cut his throat.  You pass the sentence you swing the sword.  But it was still cool seeing Arya slit his throat.  

 

Also they just nonchalantly rebuked that the dagger belonged to Tyrion and said it belonged Baelish.  No explanation.  And Bran only said that one thing, it would have been more powerful if he would have also said word for word what Baelish threatened Lord Royce when  they left the Vale.  That way it's known by the people in the hall what Bran is.

 

The scene was cool, but it could have been better.  

And one more thing, the onscreen tension between Sansa and Arya when they were alone, did they think LF was watching or something?  I'm guessing not and Arya giving her the blade was a way of saying, we are family, you're move or something?  

Edited by SerJeremiahLouistark

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Seemed to me that LF died because he became stupid (and because Bran could see the past, which shocked him) - not because Sansa and Arya were smart. The whole Winterfell plot line felt contrived and silly to me this season, like a really long Scooby Doo cartoon or something, with ridiculous misdirection.

At least I finally like Sansa, she finally seems a bit grown up. But Arya has became a ridiculous character.

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2 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

And one more thing, the onscreen tension between Sansa and Arya when they were alone, did they think LF was watching or something?  I'm guessing not and Arya giving her the blade was a way of saying, we are family, you're move or something?  

Yeah, I don't get this either. I honestly can't accept the whole "Arya and Sansa were playing LF ever since Arya arrived to WF", it doesn't make sense imo. So Arya came, Bran suddenly told them that LF betrayed their dad, the sisters immediately assumed that LF would like to pit them against each other without him actually trying anything because he only saved Sansa's ass 3 times (smuggling her out of KL, killing Lysa, bringing the army) and Arya's once (not revealing her identity to Tywin. Why would they even think he would try make them fall apart?!

My theory is that the tension was genuine and that Sansa only realized what LF's up to in this or the previous episode, probably after the little game conversation.

 

1 hour ago, ummester said:

Seemed to me that LF died because he became stupid (and because Bran could see the past, which shocked him) - not because Sansa and Arya were smart. The whole Winterfell plot line felt contrived and silly to me this season, like a really long Scooby Doo cartoon or something, with ridiculous misdirection.

At least I finally like Sansa, she finally seems a bit grown up. But Arya has became a ridiculous character.

All of this but the last two sentences. LF was acting like an idiot, for example he could easily explain his possession of the letter by wanting to destroy it to protect Sansa against being accused of collaborating with the Lannisters. For me LF died after Lysa's death when the show surpassed the books. This whole season he was just wandering around WF talking nonsense so the show could have a death in the finale, when the Stark killed him without having any real proof. But hey, at least it was good for Aiden, he was in every episode, got cash and didn't work that hard. :D

 

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Posted (edited)

He was in the wolves den stirring up shit. He should have just left, either with his army or without. But it was him who got himself killed. He knew that no one liked him nor wanted to tolerate him except Sansa. Also he was fooled thinking the sisters didnt get along. And he didnt realized that their father always taught them to stay as pack. I dont care about television setups and shit, from what i saw, he thought he could get away with it all, until BRAN SPILLED THE BEANS.

Even if it was he say versus she say, no one cared for LF and wanted him dead anyways. So he had no time for tangible evidence, the death of Lysa, her husband, and screwing the stark house was enough for everyone to say, "just fuckin kill em".

 

 

one of the best scenes. especially arya with the quick death... clasic

Edited by Charlie Hustle

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3 hours ago, ummester said:

Seemed to me that LF died because he became stupid (and because Bran could see the past, which shocked him) - not because Sansa and Arya were smart. The whole Winterfell plot line felt contrived and silly to me this season, like a really long Scooby Doo cartoon or something, with ridiculous misdirection.

At least I finally like Sansa, she finally seems a bit grown up. But Arya has became a ridiculous character.

I agree with your assessment. What Sansa already knew (Lysa murder and selling her to Ramsay) was enough to convict Littlefinger, since actual evidence is clearly unnecessary. And she had Bran to tell her anything she didn't already know. So that whole game was pointless. Littlefinger just sat there waiting to die, even after Sansa kept telling him she didn't buy his BS anymore and kept rejecting any efforts of his to kiss her or be near here. People make fun of Jorah, but at least he's smart enough to realize that he has no shot with Dany.

 

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There was no Arya/Sansa/Bran plot against Littlefinger until this episode. Arya really was being a creepy little wannabe assassin, and Sansa saw no reason to dispose of Littlefinger.

Littlefinger dropped himself in it by implying that Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, and was prepared to kill Sansa to achieve it.  At that moment, Sansa knew that that Littlefinger was lying because Arya would rather run herself through with a sword than become Lady of Winterfell, the show has repeatedly beat us over the head with that fact, and his only possible motive was to set them against each other.  After that, the rest is off screen.  She gets Bran and Arya together, Bran fills them on Littlefinger betraying their father, and they set up the fake court.  We know Bran hasn't told either of them that LF betrayed Ned until this episode because he would be dead by now.

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7 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

He was never her servant.  He was Lord Protector of the Vale of Arryn, and Lord of Harrenhal.  He was not subservient to her.  He was allied with the north.

Allied <> servant. 

Stop trolling. 

This!!! thank you. He was not subservient to her. He was pretty powerful until she called him out on his shit.

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7 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

Sansa was right that he betrayed Ned but he could easily brush it off with "No, I didn't. It's the boy's word against mine, you have no proof and no witness."

He could also claim that he knew that Neds attempted coup had no chance of success, that Ned refused to listen to reason and that he had been given assurances that Ned would be allowed to take the black if Ned was caught alive.

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