falcotron

Why didn't Littlefinger bring up Sansa's complicity?

205 posts in this topic

11 hours ago, Eternal_King_Stannis said:

Why would he admit to doing it anyway?  Why not ask for a trial by combat?

There are a few reasons to ask for a trial by combat:

  1. You sincerely believe in the Faith and that the Warrior won't let you lose because you're innocent.
  2. You're a great fighter and believe you can beat whatever champion they appoint.
  3. You know the best fighter in the area will agree to be your champion.
  4. You've got nothing at all in the way of defense or mitigation, so even a ridiculously desperate chance is better than no chance.
  5. You expect the punishment to be death by torture or something, and dying in the trial by combat sounds better.

Which one of those do you think applies here? Or is there another one I'm not thinking of?

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4 hours ago, falcotron said:

Why would he admit to doing it anyway?  Why not ask for a trial by combat?

I think maybe his throat was cut before he could ask. He started off confident he could talk his way out. Then appealed to Royce for protection, then gurglegurgle hmmfurgle (I want trial by combat!) But none could interpret. So sad

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4 hours ago, falcotron said:

There are a few reasons to ask for a trial by combat:

  1. You sincerely believe in the Faith and that the Warrior won't let you lose because you're innocent.
  2. You're a great fighter and believe you can beat whatever champion they appoint.
  3. You know the best fighter in the area will agree to be your champion.
  4. You've got nothing at all in the way of defense or mitigation, so even a ridiculously desperate chance is better than no chance.
  5. You expect the punishment to be death by torture or something, and dying in the trial by combat sounds better.

Which one of those do you think applies here? Or is there another one I'm not thinking of?

Also, I know this has been mentioned before, but your #1 leads to the point that from what I know, the North does not even recognize a Trial by Combat as it is a Southron religious tradition coming from the 7, not from the Old Gods in the North.  

But yeah, your points pretty much cover it entirely, not to mention how undramatic and time-wasting it would be to have this drawn-out process with Littlefinger when it's entirely unnecessary to the overall plot.

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8 hours ago, falcotron said:

There are a few reasons to ask for a trial by combat:

  1. You sincerely believe in the Faith and that the Warrior won't let you lose because you're innocent.
  2. You're a great fighter and believe you can beat whatever champion they appoint.
  3. You know the best fighter in the area will agree to be your champion.
  4. You've got nothing at all in the way of defense or mitigation, so even a ridiculously desperate chance is better than no chance.
  5. You expect the punishment to be death by torture or something, and dying in the trial by combat sounds better.

Which one of those do you think applies here? Or is there another one I'm not thinking of?

Assuming Trial by Combat is an accepted practice in the North ...

Point #4 - Littlefinger realizes that Sansa's not going to let him talk his way out of things in private, that means he's screwed.

 

However, Littlefinger is very much not a fighter. No one in Winterfell is going to fight for him against the Starks. He'd have to be his own champion. And Arya probably would've been the Stark champion. This would end more poorly for Littlefinger than his duel against Brandon Stark, son of Rickard, and this time, Cat wouldn't be around to save him.

 

Edit: But a Trial by Combat would've taken up more time.

Edited by Kytheros

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He wouldn't be able to make the complicity stick. When he murdered her aunt, Vale was still a subject to Iron Throne and Sansa a wanted woman with kinda deathmark for Joffrey. Royce would not be moved by that and Royce was about the only one in the room on whom Littlefinger can try it. Littlefinger knew his only hope is making Sansa change her mind. 

 

As for trial by combat, he knows he is not a fighter. He knows he would have to fight against a girl who managed to pull a draw against Brienne - against the woman who defeated the Hound. Again, he had to hope to sway Sansa... Who however combined Prosecution, Judge and Jury (as would be usual in such cases in feudal period though - she was fully in her rights as the Lady of Winterfell).

 

Not sure even the "who passes the sentence should swing the blade" would apply here as it stayed in the family triumvirate. Was not like she called for a headsman.

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That Trial was a farce from the word go! They made all these accusations and had no proof to back them up. It is a shame LF crumbled and did not truly defend himself! He could have if he wanted to. 

Lysa Arryn Moondoor/ She was trying to kill Sansa, and he saved her life. Sansa lied for him which made her as guilty as him.

Jon Arryn/ NO proof whatsoever since the letter was burnt.

The Dagger/ Littlefinger did not lie about the dagger. He said it was his.

Ramsay/ A big mistake on his part, but he did make up for it by helping the Starks defeat the Boltons, saving Sansa life again.

Ned/ Baelish was faithful to his king, Joffrey Baratheon, as was Sansa when she bent the knee to him.

That scene was poorly written, and only served to please the non fans of Littlefinger, and to prop up Sansa, It didn't showcase Baelish's skills at negotiation at all. If I were Baelish, I wouldn't have begged her for ****!

 

 

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1 hour ago, moonlightof1982 said:

and to prop up Sansa,

And what's sad is I'm not sure she can be propped up. She isn't very likeable to me. That she has suffered is supposed to make us sympathetic? Every thing she went through she brought on herself. Everything. Joffrey, Little finger , Ramsey... Just stupid choices and a self serving nature. She's not in the irredeemable category to me, like I put Jaime in because what he did to Bran... But she is far from redeemed. 

Most recently, according to the deleted scene she was all ready to genuinely accuse Arya until she spoke with Bran. 

It makes the last scene on the rampart at Winterfell forced and unrealistic. 

You can't just smooth over betraying family and siding with traitors.  Sansa Bolton. 

And ironically she was the one calling for punishment of the rebels and it was Jon that pardoned them. 

Crazy 

Then to Arya she wants to act all like she's a wise peacemaker. 

Crazy girl is crazy. And I'm not talking about Arya. 

 

 

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On 9/4/2017 at 2:44 PM, Runaway Penguin said:

He wouldn't be able to make the complicity stick.

It's not a matter of making it stick. This isn't a trial in front of an impartial jury seeking the truth, it's an early-medieval trial where judgment is up to the whim of the liege. If Sansa wants him executed, there's nothing he can do to prove her wrong on a technicality. He has to convince her to not want him executed. And there's only two ways to do that: sweet-talk her back onto his side, or make it politically too damaging or risky for her to have him executed.

Sansa is holding a public trial for a reason. The most obvious reason is that she wants the Vale Lords and the Northern Lords to see this trial as justice being served. Why? Because she's already told LF that she's afraid of losing the support of the North, and the Vale, she only has them in the first place through LF. If his execution leaves Sansa looking like a petty little girl who just had the regent of the Vale murdered for personal reasons just because she now has the power to get away with it, or looking like a criminal disposing of her partner in crime because he's become inconvenient, that has exactly the opposite effect.

And it's not like LF wouldn't understand that—that kind of political manipulation is how he sees everything. And he's been teaching Sansa to see everything the same way, so he'd expect her to understand what's going on if the trial gets away from her, and act in her own best interest.

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Bringing up that Sansa helped cover up Lysa's murder wouldn't have derailed anything. Lord Royce already knew that. It doesn't matter. Everyone knows she was in no position not to go along with Littlefinger at that point, and Lysa's murder was only the least of the charges. His getting Lysa to murder Jon Arryn, previous Lord of the Vale, was more damning.

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On 8/27/2017 at 9:26 PM, falcotron said:

First, I'm happy with the way they resolved the Winterfell plotline in general. Sansa choosing not to fight LF at his own game, or Arya's way, and instead doing it her way, as Lady of Winterfell—that's exactly where her character and this season's plot should have been leading. But I'm not entirely happy with one part of the way they did it.

The first thing Sansa accused LF of was murdering Lysa. But she abetted him in covering up that murder. And he could have said so, and derailed the entire trial.

I can maybe understand why he didn't. He's caught by surprise, he doesn't want to drag his beloved Sansa under the bus with him, he thinks he can still make this all work, etc.

But I can't understand why Sansa would be absolutely sure he wouldn't do it. Or what she could have planned if he had. Lie and say that she'd lied about Lysa's murder? Start playing the "I was a little girl a couple years ago" card right in the middle of trying to stand up as the noble and dignified lady to bring him down?

And the same is generally true for all the dirt that LF could have dumped on Sansa's head.

Also, I think it would have just been a stronger story for her character to lay everything on the table—admit that she abetted him, and that she'd also written the Robb letter out of fear, and so on—to strengthen the case against LF so there's no way to deny or ameliorate his guilt.* In-universe, the risk in putting it all out there, even in her own words at her own time, is significant, but it's still probably lower than the risk of blackmail, and worth doing. And out-of-universe, it's the perfect way to end the story about the things she did wrong out of fear.

---

* I assume the show wanted a pat happy ending to the plot, since they ended the season with it. That's easy. After LF's trial, Sansa says, "And now, Arya, it's up to you to decide whether to demand a trial for the crimes I've confessed to." And then Arya gives a big speech about how the crimes against the Starks cannot be forgiven or pardoned, and ends with "And that's why I demand that you remain as Lady of Winterfell and help bring Cersei down", and they hug and everyone lives happily ever after. But a realistic ending would have also been easy if that wanted that—Arya storms out, but meanwhile, Sansa weathers the storm and retains the loyalty of her men, and after a few months the sisters come to each understand and accept what the other one did, and make up.

Little finger had to die. It was the only assured way the Night's king would invade for vengeance. Little finger know this, so sacrificed himself for the greater good. So whoever is converted by night's king has everlasting life. Little finger is the true hero of a song of ice and fire. 

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5 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Bringing up that Sansa helped cover up Lysa's murder wouldn't have derailed anything. Lord Royce already knew that.

Sure it would have. Lord Royce isn't the only person who matters. If he were, Sansa would just bring him in on the conspiracy (as many fans seem to think she already did) and the trial wouldn't matter in the first place.

5 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Lysa's murder was only the least of the charges

Yes, but it's the first one Sansa brought up. If she'd brought up the murder of Jon Arryn first, and only thrown Lysa in toward the end, when everyone was already on board with the fact that Sansa's trial represented the Vale getting legitimate justice against LF, then there wouldn't have been any real risk. Or if she'd just laid her cards on the table and reminded everyone she'd lied about it but now she was coming clean because it's time to get this matter out in the open and resolved so they can move on to LF's even more serious crimes, again, no problem. In fact, almost the only way there's any risk of LF derailing the trial is doing things exactly the way Sansa did things.

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4 hours ago, falcotron said:

Sure it would have. Lord Royce isn't the only person who matters. If he were, Sansa would just bring him in on the conspiracy (as many fans seem to think she already did) and the trial wouldn't matter in the first place.

No, it wouldn't. The people from the Vale already know and to the people from the North it would be so much wind, like his objection that he did it to save her life. I can't see a single person in that room caring if he had mentioned it.

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16 hours ago, MilesJames said:

So whoever is converted by night's king has everlasting life. Little finger is the true hero of a song of ice and fire

And the Night King shall raise him and seat him at his right hand as Hand of the Night King. Lord Wight finger!

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Arya will raise his face.  That's why she spied on him and ultimately why the serial-killer sisters got rid of him.

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16 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Arya will raise his face.  That's why she spied on him and ultimately why the serial-killer sisters got rid of him.

What's the point though? I'm genuinely curious.
The Northern Lords and The Vale know LF is dead. She doesn't need his face to keep the Vale in check.
Daenerys & Co don't know or care about LF. Jon will probably be glad over the fact that he's dead and Dany will go "Petyr who?"
Cersei & Co know that LF is a "betrayer" against the Crown, and would probably kill him on sight. He was acting lord protector of the Vale and openly declared for House Stark against House Bolton, Cerseis northern allies.

Let's assume that word of LF's death doesn't leave Winterfell, what would Arya do with his face? Try to get an audience with Cersei and then kill her? It's the only thing I can see her use his face for, but will she though? I thought this season made it clear (well...somewhat at least) that Arya chose home and family over vengeance and death.

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

What's the point though? I'm genuinely curious.
The Northern Lords and The Vale know LF is dead. She doesn't need his face to keep the Vale in check.
Daenerys & Co don't know or care about LF. Jon will probably be glad over the fact that he's dead and Dany will go "Petyr who?"
Cersei & Co know that LF is a "betrayer" against the Crown, and would probably kill him on sight. He was acting lord protector of the Vale and openly declared for House Stark against House Bolton, Cerseis northern allies.

Let's assume that word of LF's death doesn't leave Winterfell, what would Arya do with his face? Try to get an audience with Cersei and then kill her? It's the only thing I can see her use his face for, but will she though? I thought this season made it clear (well...somewhat at least) that Arya chose home and family over vengeance and death.

Yeah, there's a certain way they could seek an audience with Cersei by using LF's face.  It would be really stupid and fan-fictiony, so it may happen that way :D.  I think LF's last convo with Cersei had her saying to bring her Sansa and he'd get everything he wanted.  Arya could bring Sansa to Cersei as LF and try to kill her there, as she's one of the last people on Arya's list.  

I don't think it's happening that way though and I doubt we see Littlefinger again.  My hope is Arya and Sansa stay in Winterfell and keep the Stark pack going strong.

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3 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

What's the point though? I'm genuinely curious.
The Northern Lords and The Vale know LF is dead. She doesn't need his face to keep the Vale in check.
Daenerys & Co don't know or care about LF. Jon will probably be glad over the fact that he's dead and Dany will go "Petyr who?"
Cersei & Co know that LF is a "betrayer" against the Crown, and would probably kill him on sight. He was acting lord protector of the Vale and openly declared for House Stark against House Bolton, Cerseis northern allies.

Let's assume that word of LF's death doesn't leave Winterfell, what would Arya do with his face? Try to get an audience with Cersei and then kill her? It's the only thing I can see her use his face for, but will she though? I thought this season made it clear (well...somewhat at least) that Arya chose home and family over vengeance and death.

The question remains why would Arya spy on LF?  She had no reason to, other than his face.  We know who she spies on, who faceless men spy on.

Was it then just a series of unfortunate events that lead to LF's execution?  That Arya simply stumbled upon a letter while spying, that Sansa stumbled upon a bag of faces while spying on Arya?  And everyone felt threatened?

 

I think not.  I think the sisters made a decision to get his face, for a purpose.

However they do not know the full game.  They will get a face of a man who is wanted, and they do not know that.

 

I suspect Arya will be killed by a faceless man, the mountain.  An the Mountain will be killed by the Hound, with his face in some fire during the winter.

Edited by Hoo

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On 03/09/2017 at 11:00 PM, Allardyce said:

Sansa was indeed an accomplice to what LF was doing in the Vale.  Let's also remember that she is poisoning Sweet Robin in the novels.  The short answer to your question is the show writers wanted LF dead and Sansa to come out smelling like a rose.  We book readers know better though.  LF and Bran should have brought up Sansa's complicity.  If Bran is to be the 3-eyed raven who serves the best interest of man kind, he cannot be partial to his sisters. 

She's an accomplice because he's groomed her to be an accomplice. She's what, a twelve year old? A teenager who was taught to trust no one but Littlefinger since he spirited her away from KL. He is doing what a lot of abusers do to their victims- isolating her from any outside influence and telling her that the only person she can trust is him, and making her complicit in his dealings. Let's assume that she does tell the Lords of The Vale that LF was the one to Moon Door Lysa- they'd quickly execute him and then she's left on her own as a bastard of an social climber murderer, or recognised as a Stark, and either married off to someone against her will for her claim or sold to Cersei. Yohn Royce is honourable (i.e unlikely to sell her out/pimp her out to get Winterfell) but she doesn't know that- considering her own aunt tried to kill her and the person she considered a friend sold her out (Dontos), she can hardly put her trust in the Vale Lords she's scared shitless of. She lies for LF because her experience shows that he's the only persoN in her corner, however uneasy he makes her feel.

With regards to Sweetrobin and sweetsleep, I doubt she gives it to him in order to kill him- she uses it to calm him down from his fits (and it's done on her orders once, the rest of the time it's ordered by LF) and from what I remember in her POV she is playing with his hair and thinks that his wife will at least find his hair pretty- hardly the thoughts you think of someone you're poisoning. Not to mention that his death wouldn't benefit either Sansa or LF in the near future as LFs grip on the Eyrie depends solely on his custody of Sweetrobin, until such time as he gets Sansa and Harold Hardyng together.

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6 hours ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

She's an accomplice because he's groomed her to be an accomplice. She's what, a twelve year old? A teenager who was taught to trust no one but Littlefinger since he spirited her away from KL. He is doing what a lot of abusers do to their victims- isolating her from any outside influence and telling her that the only person she can trust is him, and making her complicit in his dealings. Let's assume that she does tell the Lords of The Vale that LF was the one to Moon Door Lysa- they'd quickly execute him and then she's left on her own as a bastard of an social climber murderer, or recognised as a Stark, and either married off to someone against her will for her claim or sold to Cersei. Yohn Royce is honourable (i.e unlikely to sell her out/pimp her out to get Winterfell) but she doesn't know that- considering her own aunt tried to kill her and the person she considered a friend sold her out (Dontos), she can hardly put her trust in the Vale Lords she's scared shitless of. She lies for LF because her experience shows that he's the only persoN in her corner, however uneasy he makes her feel.

That's all true.

But she's not that 12-year-old anymore. She's grown up, and she's going to save herself from her abuser—and all of the other people he still has twisted up as unwilling accomplices—without stooping to his level. If you want a fist-pump moment of triumph, it's hard to think of a better one.

Or at least that's how it should have played out. If she'd revealed everything, including her own complicity, besides removing any possibility of doubt in her as a paragon of justice, she'd also be taking responsibility for everything she did out of fear, and actually resolving the half-assed Arya-vs.-Sanya plotline into part of her character growth instead of just nullifying it. (There's a reason half the fans still insist they were plotting together from the first episode, despite the writers and directors saying otherwise—because, as cool as the resolution may have been, the story just doesn't seem to have a point beyond "Arya and Sansa weren't getting along for reasons" the way they resolved it.)

By not doing that, she's relying on the fact that Littlefinger is too smitten with her to ever even consider that casting doubt on her could serve him better than appealing to her affection. Which, admittedly, does work in-story, but (unless they're going for a much darker version of Sansa for S8 than they seem to want) it doesn't work thematically.

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