falcotron

Why didn't Littlefinger bring up Sansa's complicity?

205 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Padrino said:

There was no Arya/Sansa/Bran plot against Littlefinger until this episode. Arya really was being a creepy little wannabe assassin, and Sansa saw no reason to dispose of Littlefinger.

Littlefinger dropped himself in it by implying that Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, and was prepared to kill Sansa to achieve it.  At that moment, Sansa knew that that Littlefinger was lying because Arya would rather run herself through with a sword than become Lady of Winterfell, the show has repeatedly beat us over the head with that fact, and his only possible motive was to set them against each other.  After that, the rest is off screen.  She gets Bran and Arya together, Bran fills them on Littlefinger betraying their father, and they set up the fake court.  We know Bran hasn't told either of them that LF betrayed Ned until this episode because he would be dead by now.

That actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

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Because Sansa was the only friend he had, at Winterfell. The Vale lords would happily take any reason to put Littlefinger to the sword, so trying to appeal to Sansa, directly, is his only chance to survive. Pointing out her faults, in front of all of the Stark's retainers, would serve to do nothing but deepen the hole he's in. His situation was too dire.

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Posted (edited)

The Lords of the Vale present in Winterfell were in the Great Hall. Bronze Yohn et al knew the events as they were portrayed at the Vale. Since Sansa was basically outing herself by telling the truth now, the easy assumption is that she clued in Royce and friends ahead of time. The lack of alarm or surprise on Royce's face when the charges were levied implied that he already knew. As for the King's Landing stuff, it was clearly just a girl under duress, it's the truth, and easy to believe. Essentially, Baelish had nothing he could accuse Sansa of that wasn't easily explained away.

Edited by Super Mario

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5 hours ago, Iotun said:

I did not mind the scene, and the way things played out, and don't really agree with your criticism. I think Littlefinger's actions given the context make sense.

What Littlefinger cares about first and foremost is Littlefinger, and getting out alive. Littlefinger is not going to be happy to bring down Sansa with him... Littlefinger is going to be happy only if he survives, and gree to scheme another day.

And Littlefinger believes and understands immediately, and rightly so, that being on Sansa's good graces is the only way to survive the night. Antagonizing her is not going to help him. If there's one problem with the plot, is how weak Littlefinger's plot is, and how vulnerable he left his position.

Think about it. In reality, nobody really supported Littlefinger, other than Sansa. The Vale Lords do not really like Littlefinger who they see as a low-born upstart who is a bad influence over Robert, and only follow him because they are afraid of the influence he has over Robert. From the perspective of the Vale Lords they can't betray Littleginer, because they feel that so long as he is supported by Sansa, who is lady of Winterfell and Robert's cousin, that she can inform Robert of any treasonous actions against Littlefinger. But I always got the impression that if the Vale Lords were to feel that Sansa does not support Littlefinger, and that they have a chance to overthrow him, they would do so at first chance. Meanwhile, the Northern Lords will always support a Stark over an unknown stranger.

So at the end, telling on Sansa doesn't help Littlefinger, because nobody would care when faced with the prospect of overthrowing him, and because his best chance for survival is to stay in Sansa's good graces. But like I said, the only weakness in the plot for me, is how bad Littlefinger's plan is. He's surrounded by enemies, he has nobody that really trusts him, and hatces up a plan that can easily be thwarted by 5 minutes of conversation between the sisters. If anything, Littlefinger would have been better served by trying to get the two sister's together, and trying to make Arya like him, as that would consolidate his support amongst the Starks, and allow him to strengthen his hold over the Vale. He can then continue to court Sansa for a couple of years, marry her and get the North together with the Vale, and see how he can make that position stronger.

Hear Hear! 

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Virtually every crime Littlefinger was "convicted of" happened long ago.  What took so long?  What was his end game?  He never even tried to marry Sansa or consolidate power for anything useful.  He had more power and control before he betrayed the Lannisters for no reason to ally with the Boltons and then betrayed them.  Super dramatized trial for what purpose other than the drama itself?  If the sisters were in on the shared secret, who were they play-acting those hostile scenes for? And why go to all the trouble just to off Littlefinger — a character who hasn’t done much for over a year, and could have easily been dispatched at any time?

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7 hours ago, Cinn-a-Bronn said:

Because Sansa was the only friend he had, at Winterfell. The Vale lords would happily take any reason to put Littlefinger to the sword, so trying to appeal to Sansa, directly, is his only chance to survive. Pointing out her faults, in front of all of the Stark's retainers, would serve to do nothing but deepen the hole he's in. His situation was too dire.

Imagine this:

  • Sansa: You murdered our aunt, Lysa Arryn. You pushed her through the Moon Door and watched her fall. Do you deny it?
  • Littlefinger: Yes, of course I deny it. When the Vale Lords wanted to try me for exactly that death, you testified to them that that Lysa threw herself through the Moon Door.

That's certainly a better defense than what he actually said: "I did it, I did it to protect you." For one thing, it's not an admission of guilt. And for another, she can't press forward with the charge unless she's willing to explain that she lied to the Vale Lords, and why.

How would she have responded if he'd said that? Remember, he didn't even ask her to lie; she decided to do it entirely on her own. Is she going to admit all that and try to explain it, because she was young and confused? Lie and say that he threatened her? Ignore it and press on and convict him anyway based purely on her eyewitness account when she gave the opposite account last time, and hope everyone accepts her judgment as fair anyway?

And this is the very first charge she presents. She has even less evidence for some of the other charges. If he's able to evade the first one, the trial goes from looking like a catalog of villainy to a witch hunt.

Again, I can understand why maybe he didn't try this tack, but I can't understand why she didn't seem to even consider the possibility that he might.

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21 hours ago, falcotron said:

The first thing Sansa accused LF of was murdering Lysa. But she abetted him in covering up that murder. And he could have said so, and derailed the entire trial.

I can maybe understand why he didn't. He's caught by surprise, he doesn't want to drag his beloved Sansa under the bus with him, he thinks he can still make this all work, etc.

But I can't understand why Sansa would be absolutely sure he wouldn't do it. Or what she could have planned if he had. Lie and say that she'd lied about Lysa's murder? Start playing the "I was a little girl a couple years ago" card right in the middle of trying to stand up as the noble and dignified lady to bring him down?

The most obvious and believable defence IMO would have been to say she was scared he'd kill her too if she didn't do what he wanted.

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1 minute ago, Tywinelle said:

The most obvious and believable defence IMO would have been to say she was scared he'd kill her too if she didn't do what he wanted.

So, basically, she'd lie, and hope that she was a good enough liar to get away with it. And even if she did, it really derails the flow of her case against him. She goes from impartial paradigm of justice meting out accusations to former unwilling co-conspirator trying to rat out the ringleader.

Really, the best defense would have been to bring this out up front, before asking him anything. Then she could frame it exactly the way she wanted, and set it up so that her coming clean about everything makes her look even more above reproach.

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17 minutes ago, falcotron said:

So, basically, she'd lie, and hope that she was a good enough liar to get away with it.

Yes.  It's obvious to me and it would be obvious to Sansa too that everyone in that hall would be happy to believe her over a man like LF.

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, Iotun said:

I did not mind the scene, and the way things played out, and don't really agree with your criticism. I think Littlefinger's actions given the context make sense.

What Littlefinger cares about first and foremost is Littlefinger, and getting out alive. Littlefinger is not going to be happy to bring down Sansa with him... Littlefinger is going to be happy only if he survives, and gree to scheme another day.

And Littlefinger believes and understands immediately, and rightly so, that being on Sansa's good graces is the only way to survive the night. Antagonizing her is not going to help him. If there's one problem with the plot, is how weak Littlefinger's plot is, and how vulnerable he left his position.

Think about it. In reality, nobody really supported Littlefinger, other than Sansa. The Vale Lords do not really like Littlefinger who they see as a low-born upstart who is a bad influence over Robert, and only follow him because they are afraid of the influence he has over Robert. From the perspective of the Vale Lords they can't betray Littleginer, because they feel that so long as he is supported by Sansa, who is lady of Winterfell and Robert's cousin, that she can inform Robert of any treasonous actions against Littlefinger. But I always got the impression that if the Vale Lords were to feel that Sansa does not support Littlefinger, and that they have a chance to overthrow him, they would do so at first chance. Meanwhile, the Northern Lords will always support a Stark over an unknown stranger.

So at the end, telling on Sansa doesn't help Littlefinger, because nobody would care when faced with the prospect of overthrowing him, and because his best chance for survival is to stay in Sansa's good graces. But like I said, the only weakness in the plot for me, is how bad Littlefinger's plan is. He's surrounded by enemies, he has nobody that really trusts him, and hatces up a plan that can easily be thwarted by 5 minutes of conversation between the sisters. If anything, Littlefinger would have been better served by trying to get the two sister's together, and trying to make Arya like him, as that would consolidate his support amongst the Starks, and allow him to strengthen his hold over the Vale. He can then continue to court Sansa for a couple of years, marry her and get the North together with the Vale, and see how he can make that position stronger.

I agree with most of this, but you have to understand it was LF's intent to install Sansa as lady of WF. He did not expect the North to appoint Jon as King of the North. When faced with this, LF's plan was to work behind the scenes convincing the Lords that they had made a mistake, and should have elected Sansa Lady of WF. This was even brought up in the episode. However, things went a muck for LF upon the unexpected arrival of Bran, then Arya. LF's mistake was he should have cut bait and left at this time, but thought he could still work his plan, and he over exaggerated his abilities. 

The unexpected twist of Sansa finally putting it all together, thanks to LF himself and his "imagine the worse thing your enemies could want" speech. Then when accused by Sansa, it put him in the awkward position due to the fact all season long he had been preaching Sansa's virtues. 

And while as complicit as Sansa may or may not have been, she had no involvement with the poisoning of Lord Arryn, which by itself is more than enough to condemn him to death. Same thing in his complicity with Ned's death, and the attempted assignation of Bran. So, the stuff with Lyssa and Ramsay was rather mute. 

My take is we are lead to believe that certain events have happened behind the scenes, such as Bran showing his abilities, and Sansa explaining to John Royce her actions and motivations in the death of Lyssa. Regardless of how Royce may have felt, it was still in his best interest to rid himself of LF.

Edited by Error-504

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13 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

My take is we are lead to believe that certain events have happened behind the scenes, such as Bran showing his abilities, and Sansa explaining to John Royce her actions and motivations in the death of Lyssa

That's definitely possible.

I didn't consider that she might have brought Royce in on the plan in advance; I thought she was just assuming that he (a) hates Littlefinger and (b) is an honorable man who believes in justice, and therefore if she did everything right she could count on him being happy with the outcome.

I'll have to go back and rewatch it to see his reactions now. I remember that he looked happy when things started to go badly for LF, but I don't remember whether he looked pleasantly surprised at the switcheroo or sort of dispassionately waiting for what he knows is coming.

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19 hours ago, Hoo said:

Simple.  She played him to kill him, because she wanted to kill him like serial killers do, got tired of him and just needed a kill for the heck of it.  She would've worked her way through some twisted excuse.

In the end LF was killed for being Sansa's advisor and servant.  The ruler got tired of him and killed him.  The process was s farce like the rest of the WF scenes. 

Sansa, a serial killer?  You're nuts.

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She was unsure of how the Lords of the Vale felt about her.  She was young and scared.  Better the enemy you know than the enemy you don't. 

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19 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

Sansa was right that he betrayed Ned but he could easily brush it off with "No, I didn't. It's the boy's word against mine, you have no proof and no witness." Sansa was right that he killed Lysa but her selective memory chose to omit that if he hadn't killed her, she would have killed Sansa. Basically, LF saved her life. Twice actually, because he later came with the Vale soldiers. Sansa bringing up the Boltons was just ridiculous. Yes, LF arranged it but Sansa agreed with it.

Although I liked the way the Stark children eventually stuck together and that it was Sansa who passed the sentence, I think that overall it was rather underwhelming and disappointing (when it comes to the arguments Sansa used and how LF practially didn't defend himself) and way too easy for the Stark to do it. At least if they had a real proof they he wanted to kill Arya or something. No. Basically they could have killed LF in the moment Bran entered Winterfell, but they left him wandering around Wintefell because they needed a "shocking" death in the season's finale. As I am thinking about it, they could have killed him right after Lysa's murder because everything he did after that accomplish absolutely nothing.

This is a perfect summary as to why Littlefinger's death was so unsatisfying.  Every accusation against him could have been properly defended.  Bran has no proof or witnesses of Littlefinger's betrayal, Sansa actually helped cover up Lysa's murder for Littlefinger, and Sansa agreed to the Bolton marriage.  In fact, Littlefinger could have said in his defense "I didn't set up a marriage between Sansa and Ramsay Bolton.  D & D forced me to do it."

There was nothing that Littlefinger did exclusively in seasons 5, 6 or 7 that would warrant his execution.  Instead of the ridiculous false tension between Sansa and Arya, D & D could have used the time to come up with something new in season 7 that would warrant him being sentenced to death.  So as you said, they should have just killed Littlefinger off immediately after Lysa's death if they had no clue what else to do with him.

They have the same problem now with Cersei.  There is no reason why she should be alive.  After blowing up the Sept of Baelor, Jaime should have killed her or she should have died in the resulting riots from the small folk. 

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On 28/08/2017 at 5:26 AM, falcotron said:

The first thing Sansa accused LF of was murdering Lysa. But she abetted him in covering up that murder. And he could have said so, and derailed the entire trial.

I can maybe understand why he didn't. He's caught by surprise, he doesn't want to drag his beloved Sansa under the bus with him, he thinks he can still make this all work, etc.

I think he loved her... And it wouldn't change anything... Because litteraly, Lysa was threatening Sansa about throwing her through the moon door...

23 hours ago, goomba said:

Simple explanation for this, the writers are sh!t :D 

Lord Royce was there when Sansa said that Aunt Lysa threw herself through the moon door. And he was also there when Sasa accused LF of pushing Aunt Lysa ... So... Lord Royce could have asked Sansa "But If I'm not talking madness, I recall you were defending this ... Lord Baelish When we confronted him in the Eirye... " But he didn't... So I don't se why the fact that Lord Baelish didn't bring it is bad writing...?

 

Maybe they believe she was scared... They know who was Lysa... Aunt Lysa conspired with LF to kill Lord Arryn, Lord of the Vale...  And they though fever took him. Now they discover that she and LF conspired to kill their lords, plus sent a letter to Catelyn Stark and said that The Lannister was behind it... Then LF sent the assassin to kill Bran and then Said that the dagger belonged to Tyrion... That started the war... Robb died

22 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

Sansa was right that he betrayed Ned but he could easily brush it off with "No, I didn't. It's the boy's word against mine, you have no proof and no witness." Sansa was right that he killed Lysa but her selective memory chose to omit that if he hadn't killed her, she would have killed Sansa. Basically, LF saved her life. Twice actually, because he later came with the Vale soldiers. Sansa bringing up the Boltons was just ridiculous. Yes, LF arranged it but Sansa agreed with it.

We all know that... But LF taught her a game... What are the motives... He saved her... Ay... But for his own good... Who knows? Maybe he wanted to marry Sansa give her a child and then kill her... He said he loved Cat, and yet, he betrayed her... Sansa said to Jon "Only a fool would trust LF"... It means, everthing he did, wasn't because he wanted to protect her... Maybe he was... But he litteraly wanted Sansa to kill Arya... Sansa said in season 6 episode 10 "It never stopped you from serving yourself"... LF was the God. He sent the assassin to murder Bran... He was behind Arryn's death... He was behind Lysa's death... He was behind Ned's death (partly)... He was behind everything, and yet, he wanted Sansa to remember that he saved her from who?Lysa?The Lannisters?The Boltons? LF conspires in your back and when you feel down, he comes out and find a solution for you... Never trust that man...

 If he had never done that Rickon would still alive, and Robb, and also Cat... He convinced Cat to let Jamie back to King's Landing ... He played little game that might make him look like a good person or a hero, but in the end, he is serving himself... 

16 hours ago, Padrino said:

Littlefinger dropped himself in it by implying that Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, and was prepared to kill Sansa to achieve it.  At that moment, Sansa knew that that Littlefinger was lying because Arya would rather run herself through with a sword than become Lady of Winterfell, the show has repeatedly beat us over the head with that fact, and his only possible motive was to set them against each other.

Exactly... Since season 1 Arya has always wanted to be a Knight... Not a Lady... And the scene of Arya training with Brienne was just a reminder of what she was... And Sansa said that she was one of the Faceless men... She is a killer... Why would a person like that want to be Lady of Winterfell? 

But I felt sorry for him... He was about to cry... And how he died... And then I said to myself... That's exactly LF... He plays games... Even after what he did, people still believe that it ended in the wrong way for him... Like it wasn't fair... 

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19 hours ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

I agree completely, but this is the huge problem with the TV show for book readers. If LF defends himself the scene takes too long and gets boring. This is why we don't get full storylines and character development and whole armies move without orders or motivation.

You've hit the nail on the head.  I was speaking yesterday to someone about the show.  This person had never read, and has no interest in reading, the books.  His view was that the first three or four seasons were too slow but the show improved after that.  Most book readers feel the opposite to that.

Being an avid reader of the series since 1998 I can see from both point of views but I have preferred the show since it passed the books for two simple reasons.

1) I am going to get resolution to a story that I emotionally invested in a long time ago (I don't believe the books will ever be finished and to be honest I thought AFFC & ADWD were extremely disappointing so it may be for the best anyway).

2) There were many parts I love in the books that didn't make it to the TV show, e.g. the Hound/Arya vs Polliver/Tickler in the Inn, so whilst the casual viewer found the show slow, I wanted that extra rich detail.  As soon as the show passed the books I didn't have anything to compare it against or be annoyed that something was being missed out.

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Posted (edited)

The war of five kings started because of stupidity of Ned Stark.  Not because of LF.  Baratheons wanted the throne for themselves anyway, but now all the more when Ned started spreading the news of illegitimate children.  Then, Ned got himself killed, and that sent the North into rebellion.

The Jon Aryn's death was just a strike that got Ned into King's Landing as the King's Hand, Jon's replacement.  But Ned already had bad intentions towards the Lannisters, and he was digging.  And he did commit treason.  And he was by himself at KL, acting to start the war against the Lannisters.

No war would've started without Ned Stark's bad plans.  Ned Stark was dumb, Sansa said he was dumb this past season, and LF knew it in S1, that's why he decided not to drown with that ship.  Dude was hopeless.  So LF betrayed him,, rightfully so, he was committing treason in KL.

 

Edited by Hoo

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43 minutes ago, Hoo said:

The war of five kings started because of stupidity of Ned Stark.  Not because of LF.  Baratheons wanted the throne for themselves anyway, but now all the more when Ned started spreading the news of illegitimate children.  Then, Ned got himself killed, and that sent the North into rebellion.

The Jon Aryn's death was just a strike that got Ned into King's Landing as the King's Hand, Jon's replacement.  But Ned already had bad intentions towards the Lannisters, and he was digging.  And he did commit treason.  And he was by himself at KL, acting to start the war against the Lannisters.

No war would've started without Ned Stark's bad plans.  Ned Stark was dumb, Sansa said he was dumb this past season, and LF knew it in S1, that's why he decided not to drown with that ship.  Dude was hopeless.  So LF betrayed him,, rightfully so, he was committing treason in KL.

 

Nice story, Troll.

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17 hours ago, Padrino said:

There was no Arya/Sansa/Bran plot against Littlefinger until this episode. Arya really was being a creepy little wannabe assassin, and Sansa saw no reason to dispose of Littlefinger.

Littlefinger dropped himself in it by implying that Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, and was prepared to kill Sansa to achieve it.  At that moment, Sansa knew that that Littlefinger was lying because Arya would rather run herself through with a sword than become Lady of Winterfell, the show has repeatedly beat us over the head with that fact, and his only possible motive was to set them against each other.  After that, the rest is off screen.  She gets Bran and Arya together, Bran fills them on Littlefinger betraying their father, and they set up the fake court.  We know Bran hasn't told either of them that LF betrayed Ned until this episode because he would be dead by now.

Very likely imo. I'm not buying this "Sansa+Arya play LF for half the season because they have nothing better to do and because they think he'll try to pit them against each other because he has nothing better to do" theory.

 

16 hours ago, Zumbs said:

He could also claim that he knew that Neds attempted coup had no chance of success, that Ned refused to listen to reason and that he had been given assurances that Ned would be allowed to take the black if Ned was caught alive.

Or he could say that yes, he betrayed Ned but he remained loyal to the king while Ned was practically doing a treason. Yes, Joffrey was a bastard born from an incest, so he wasn't really the heir, but LF could say that he didn't know it, Joffrey was his king, he remained loyal and helped him defend the traitors and that's it.

 

16 hours ago, Cinn-a-Bronn said:

Because Sansa was the only friend he had, at Winterfell. The Vale lords would happily take any reason to put Littlefinger to the sword, so trying to appeal to Sansa, directly, is his only chance to survive. Pointing out her faults, in front of all of the Stark's retainers, would serve to do nothing but deepen the hole he's in. His situation was too dire.

So basically he knew that he was going to die and if he tried to drag Sansa down with him / sway her, he was probably going to die as well, although there was a tiny chance that she could show some mercy after him pointing out that she agreed to marry Ramsay, helped him cover Lysa's murder, was 3 times saved by him and stuff. So he prefered to do nothing. I'm sorry but this doesn't make much sense to me. He had nothing to lose at that point, it literally couldn't go any worse, it could go only better.

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