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Why didn't Littlefinger bring up Sansa's complicity?

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Posted (edited)

Littlefinger did request a trial by combat. He said, "Give me a chance to defend myself, I deserve that." Sansa ignored his request and then he commanded escort but was refused. He then started begging until his throat was slashed. The entire protocol of a trial, guilt, execution, and customs were ignored for dramatic effect.

Edited by bizzle

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On 8/28/2017 at 6:30 AM, VenezuelanLord said:

I honestly dont think that Sansa had any clue of LF deceit until he taught her his "game", so it was a last resource kind of thing, Sansa didnt played LF, she did exactly what her father (worst player ever) would've done, charge him of every crime she has knowledge he committed, just what ned was planning to do back at KL, make everything public.. ultimately LF betrayal ended up fucking Ned's plan and cost him his head.. its only Poetic justice that LF met his fate at the hands of Ned's surviving children, but the fact that a fucking bad plan just like Ned's back at KL ended up condemning LF

Sansa has been on to Little Finger since before the Vale and since the Vale she has been trying to figure out how to out maneuver him.

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On 8/28/2017 at 1:26 AM, Hoo said:

Simple.  She played him to kill him, because she wanted to kill him like serial killers do, got tired of him and just needed a kill for the heck of it.  She would've worked her way through some twisted excuse.

In the end LF was killed for being Sansa's advisor and servant.  The ruler got tired of him and killed him.  The process was s farce like the rest of the WF scenes. 

How do you justify calling Sansa a serial killer? Sansa has killed two people in the entire series, both of them while Lady of Winterfell under legal conditions. Every man with a sword has killed more than that. Cersie has killed way more than that, many while she had the protection of queen but Cersie was killing before she was queen. There is your serial killer. 

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Posted (edited)

Because it's a poor excuse from LF, and also, because he was trying to make Sansa forgive him till the very end.

He asks her for a fair defense, she doesn't answer, and he realizes she actually wants him dead. So LF goes to Lord Royce and asks him to escort him back to the Vale, because he already knows Sansa is beyond his reach now. He turns him down and then, and only then, LF knows he's doomed.

LF was just trying to save his ass from the very beginning, because he knew Sansa had outplayed him. If he had accused Sansa of being also guilty, he would have been killed instantly.

I really liked how they killed him off by the way. Lots of dialogue and one throat cut: back to what GOT really is. It was also very well written IMO.

Edited by Ingelheim

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Posted (edited)

It's a weak defence. First, she is Lady of Winterfell. People won't believe him over her and that is all it comes down to with no physical proof and no one to back him up. Secondly, all she would have to say is "I was a child, escaping the clutches of the Lannister's and you used me, controlled me and manipulated me".  Again, no one will not believe she was controlled by him. 

Edited by LastManStanding

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She was just a child and under LF's control. Thankfully he already burned bridges with the major knight of the vale last season so that man would not defend LF no matter what.

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Even if he was allowed to defend himself via trial by combat, which was outlawed by King Tommen and not recognised in the North, he'd have to find a champion (remember Tyrions struggles?) in a room full of expert swordsmen  who hate his guts and see him as nothing but a low born upstart. 

Not a single Vale/Northern Lord would take his side if he decided to drag Sansa with him. A 15 year old lies about her aunts death because she depends on the person who killed her aunt? You don't say! Anyone with an ounce of common sense would realised that she lied because she was coerced into lying by Littlefinger, the only person she was led to believe would save her. What LF was doing to her at that point was a textbook case of grooming.

She may have agreed to marry Ramsay Bolton, but it's not like she really had a choice, is it? Royce was appalled at the idea, and LF pretty much accused him of selling Sansa out, it would take one exchange between Sansa and Royce to find out the truth about the real turn of the events. 

Not to mention the fact that LF was very clearly in shock- up until the moment Sansa said "Lord Baelish" he thought the trial was for Arya and his scheme was successful- as Sansa pointed out, it worked with Lysa and Catelyn because Catelyn didn't take him seriously enough and Lysa was in love with him. He clearly underestimated the Stark girls and overplayed his hand at driving a wedge between them. If he had any idea this was coming the outcome might have been different.

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1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

This is a fair point.  I'd argue 2 things in response.  The first is sort of a cop-out, but I still think it's plausible.  It's simply the convention of storytelling.  You have a sort of omniscient character whose powers have been developed over the course of the story- you don't really have people questioning what he says as it's simply convention.  Also from a narrative standpoint is there really time or interest in having a "he said, she said" evidentiary debate to spare the life of a supporting character like LF?  But like I said, I'll admit this is sort of a cop-out meta argument.

I think more important to think about here is that there are essentially 2 people whose opinions matter in this scenario- Sansa as Lady of Winterfell and Lord Royce as LF's protector.  Sansa had already made up her mind by the time this scene started as she knows that what Bran says is true- this has been established when he showed her his omniscience with his comments about her wedding to Ramsay and his comments to Arya about her list.  Sansa knows Bran's word essentially is the truth.  As for Royce, once Sansa dropped the bomb about LF killing Lysa, something she was a witness to, LF was done.  Royce and the army of the Vale are loyal to the Arryns, not LF.  

As for your last point, yes I largely agree with the fact that LF not looking into Bran is a little suspect.  I can explain it away as him not really having options- he doesn't have anywhere to really go outside Winterfell assuming, which I think is a safe assumption, that he loves Sansa and wants to rule together with her.  So he played his one card which came pretty close to working by playing Sansa and Arya off each other.  

Sure, Sansa made her mind and probably nothing he could say could sway her. Royce already hates him for some time, so it's the same thing. And yes, Sansa and Arya know that Bran says the truth. But unless they did some kind of Twilight-Renesme-convinction round with every other lord / guard present there, why the lords / guards should believe it's true? Because some teen who looks and sounds quite high says so? Sansa confessed before that Lysa committed suicide. From a perspective, it can seem that suddenly she changes it because it's convenient for her plan. The problem is that D&D made LF so stupid that he confessed the crime. My guess is that Sansa told everyone but LF in the room what was going to happen to prevent any complications. But yeah, you're most likely right that LF was dead man walking at the moment Sansa decided to kill him. The only problem I have with it is that everyone, not only Sansa and Arya, trusts Bran.

To your third paragraph, if his ultimate goal was to follow Sansa as a lapdog, sure, he had no other option (but not trying to pit Sansa against Arya maybe?). If his ultimate goal was to gain power and, more importantly, live, he had quite a few options. The one that could pay off the most imo was fleeing to Eyrie where his last standing ally (completely ignoring that Cersei completely ignores him) is - Sweetrobin.

 

1 hour ago, Tadco26 said:

Or focus on eliminating Bran over Arya.  But then we go back to what was Littlefinger's plan anyway?  He has declined in power ever since he pointlessly betrayed the Lannisters to ally with the Boltons, who he then betrayed.  His most personal crime against Sansa was giving her to Ramsay which never made any sense in the first place.  Without that betrayal, he saved Sansa from her aunt who was about to push her out the moon door...  He saved her from King's Landing.  A more logical course would have been to skip the alliance with the Boltons which gained him absolutely nothing, and just come north with Sansa and re-take it with the armies of the Vale which he ended up doing after losing her trust anyway...

You're right, focusing on Bran instead of on Arya makes much more sense, especially if LF is aware (which he probably is) of his omnipresence. Bran was a real threat to him. Arya on the other hand... Maybe I am stupid or slow but I just don't get why LF would even try to pit the sisters once against another. Did Arya threaten his position in Winterfell in any way? Not really, Sansa already had several advisors and yet she prefered to discuss stuff with LF. Did Arya have any info that would harm LF? No. Maybe he was afraid that Arya would be too influential to Sansa but the same thing can be said about Jon and Bran and yet he did nothing against any of them.

The whole arranged marriage between Sansa and Ramsay was just a bullsh*t, it makes no sense from any perspective at all. Sadly, the real reason behind it was to follow the books (although it's not Sansa who marries Ramsay in the books ofc) and possibly to give Jon a reason to attack Ramsay because they didn't want to introduce so many characters just because of the pink letter.

 

7 minutes ago, bizzle said:

Littlefinger did request a trial by combat. He said, "Give me a chance to defend myself, I deserve that." Sansa ignored his request and then he commanded escort but was refused. He then started begging until his throat was slashed. The entire protocol of a trial, guilt, execution, and customs were ignored for dramatic effect.

This is actually an interesting interpretation. I personally took the word "defend" less literally and I understood it as "let me say something in my defence" and when Sansa leaned back, I took it as "okay, go on". But yeah, if LF had an ally in the room, that ally can later bring this up and blame Sansa for not respecting traditions and denying trail by combat to someone. The sad thing is that it's never going to happen.

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A friend of mine said "Sansa was not complicit she was a virtual hostage to Littlefinger, in fear of her own life at his hand, and under duress".

All I will say is, she waited until just the right moment to drop her load on LF... how in fear of her life was she the whole time she was in Winterfell?

And the Sansa/Arya drama completely CREATED for the ending.  How utterly lazy are these show writers?

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Sansa was not coerced into lying.  Sansa was free as can be to tell the truth to Vale's council. Everybody knows that.

Sansa's a natural liar.  Starting in 103 when butcher's boy was killed, to Vale, to time when Brienne asked her puzzled why she lied to Jon, to this LF execution.

 

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Posted (edited)

1. Trial by Defense would not work in the North as they don't worship the 7 Gods, and still remember Brandon 's Fire by Trial

2. Around 1/2 of the Vale Lords liked LF as he was one of the Vale Lords, its also one of the reason he was able to be protector of Robert Arynn

3. Sansa wasn't known to the Vale Lords at that time so what would her word helped in pointing out Lysa murder

Edited by enoofu

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I read Gillen's take on the final scene as a re enactment of his first humiliation by Brandon Stark, but I thought him turning to a pile of jelly at the end instead of mounting a defense and attempting to at least take out Sansa along with himself was not too realistic considering the character we have seen.  If chaos is a ladder how better to sow a last bit of chaos than to out Sansa's complicity in so many of these actions and even embellish a bit for the audience.

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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If chaos is a ladder how better to sow a last bit of chaos than to out Sansa's complicity in so many of these actions and even embellish a bit for the audience.

Because it wouldn't have done any good. Every person in that room had no interest in LF's side of the story and already wanted or at least was indifferent to LF's death. Sansa said herself in 7x06 that the Winterfell guards would happily kill LF for her. Brienne made it very clear she wanted LF gone as well. Yohn Royce has had no use for LF ever since LF threatened him in Season 6. Arya disliked LF and would happily get rid of him. Bran wouldn't care one way or the other, except to the extent LF messed with his sisters.

The only thing keeping LF alive at Winterfell was Sansa's goodwill and protection. Once Sansa decided he deserved to die, no one would save him. 

Edited by Newstar

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Bran could peep over every instance of Sansa's 'complicity' and he and Arya would side with her anyway since she has a solid excuse at least in Lysa's murder case. With them being on her side, Royce being against LF anyway, and the Northern lords only having LF's words against Sansa's words... Baelish was screwed.

Actually, Bran's input was ironically his only hope for any kind of justice. Sansa could have blamed him for pretty much anything barely believable and with her word against his, in front of that biased audience he would be screwed even if he was innocent.

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27 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Because it wouldn't have done any good. Every person in that room had no interest in LF's side of the story and already wanted or at least was indifferent to LF's death. Sansa said herself in 7x06 that the Winterfell guards would happily kill LF for her. Brienne made it very clear she wanted LF gone as well. Yohn Royce has had no use for LF ever since LF threatened him in Season 6. Arya disliked LF and would happily get rid of him. Bran wouldn't care one way or the other, except to the extent LF messed with his sisters.

The only thing keeping LF alive at Winterfell was Sansa's goodwill and protection. Once Sansa decided he deserved to die, no one would save him. 

One wonders then, other than plot contrivance, why he stayed in WF if he had no allies?  People were telling me just a week ago that Sansa "needed" him to keep the Vale army, indeed, Sansa said it herself.

But that wasn't my point.  My point was that why not defend himself by sowing distrust of Sansa?  Why fall down and beg like a coward?  

Ugh, I'm glad he's dead, glad the drama was fake drama and Arya can go back to being a fan favorite, but that storyline was so, so poorly done on every level.

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Because it was a farce trial.  The Starks murdered him because they wanted to, no argument would change that.

The murder was not done in a Ned Stark tradition: one who passes sentence should swing the sword.

The kids are out of whack, they've always been whacked out.

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3 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I recall that it was a difficult decision for her but she was afraid she would be blamed for Lysa's murder. She was fresh on the run under accusations of having killed Joffrey. She had no way to know of the Lords of the Vale would send her back to Cersie. She choose to lie thinking it the safer option and planned to use it against LF at a later time of she needed.


 

 

4 hours ago, Tadco26 said:

Or focus on eliminating Bran over Arya.  But then we go back to what was Littlefinger's plan anyway?  He has declined in power ever since he pointlessly betrayed the Lannisters to ally with the Boltons, who he then betrayed.  His most personal crime against Sansa was giving her to Ramsay which never made any sense in the first place.  Without that betrayal, he saved Sansa from her aunt who was about to push her out the moon door...  He saved her from King's Landing.  A more logical course would have been to skip the alliance with the Boltons which gained him absolutely nothing, and just come north with Sansa and re-take it with the armies of the Vale which he ended up doing after losing her trust anyway...

That's why a lot of people got frustrated with it. They completely altered the book plot, which would be fine if they had improved or streamlined it. But they didn't.

It makes Littlefinger look like an idiot, because even if he doesn't know Ramsay is a total psychopath, he knows about the Boltons in general. It is common knowledge that they flay their enemies, it is common knowledge that they butchered Sansa's family at the Red Wedding, it is common knowledge that they stole her ancestral home, and Roose (who heads the family) doesn't have a great reputation. Littlefinger has every reason to think she will be badly mistreated here. Yes, she gives the Boltons legitimacy, but they violated Guest Right and use a flayed man on their banner. I don't think legitimacy means much to them.

It also ruins Sansa's arc, because she's supposed to be becoming the politically savvy, clever Stark. Living in King's Landing helps with that development. So does living in the Vale under the tutelage of Littlefinger (arguably the most politically astute mind in the Seven Kingdoms). Being a tortured captive doesn't build political awareness, or Theon would be fit to sit the Iron Throne by now.

Of course, this happened when Ramsay was the show's biggest Mary Sue (or Gary Stu, if you will). Roose became naive because Ramsay's arc required it. Littlefinger became clueless because Ramsay's arc required it. And Sansa was tortured because Ramsay's arc required it. Oh, lest I forget, Stannis became an inept battle commander because Ramsay's arc required it.

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

One wonders then, other than plot contrivance, why he stayed in WF if he had no allies?  People were telling me just a week ago that Sansa "needed" him to keep the Vale army, indeed, Sansa said it herself.

But that wasn't my point.  My point was that why not defend himself by sowing distrust of Sansa?  Why fall down and beg like a coward?  

Ugh, I'm glad he's dead, glad the drama was fake drama and Arya can go back to being a fan favorite, but that storyline was so, so poorly done on every level.

It's truly Plot Induced Stupidity, because Littlefinger has any number of reasons to go back to the Vale:

1) He has the Vale lord (Robyn) under his complete control, while Sansa is much more resistant to his manipulations.

2) Winter is hitting the North very hard at this point, and it isn't as cold in the Vale. The North is pretty unbearable during Winter for anyone not used to it.

3) Bran and Arya reveal their hands way too soon. Bran all but tells Littlefinger that he knows all his secrets, and Arya shows him that she can easily kill him. Littlefinger makes it clear in Season 1 that if they could afford to hire a Faceless Man, Dany's death would be guaranteed. Then Arya proves against Brienne in the courtyard that she's every bit as dangerous as their reputation suggests. (Arya still hasn't learned that her best weapon as an assassin is appearing harmless.)

4) The WHITE WALKERS. The Vale lords are already restless in Jon's absence. Surely it's not a hard sell that they should retreat to their impregnable fortress at the Eyrie and fortify their position there. Surely being further away from the army of the undead is a good thing.

It makes no sense for Littlefinger to stay at Winterfell all this time, given the circumstances. He knows that Bran could spill the beans about his various secrets anytime, and Arya could be wearing the face of anyone he tries to plot with or seek help from.

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2 hours ago, Hoo said:

Sansa was not coerced into lying.  Sansa was free as can be to tell the truth to Vale's council. Everybody knows that.

Sansa's a natural liar.  Starting in 103 when butcher's boy was killed, to Vale, to time when Brienne asked her puzzled why she lied to Jon, to this LF execution.

 

She was coerced into lying. How did she know that Vale lords would believe her? The same Vale lords, as far as she knows, sat on their arses whilst her brother and uncles were battling Lannisters and were answerable only to Sweetrobin, a sickly little kid fond of making people fly, and completely in control of Littlefinger. If she turned around and told everyone it was LF, he'd easily blame her and tell Sweetrobin that she killed her mother, and she'd be out of Moon Door faster than you could say "Aunt Lysa". Did you miss the bit where Royce was seized by Sweetrobins guards on LFs command? 

God I don't understand the irrational Sansa hatred. She was a spoilt little princess, which is what she was encouraged by her mother and septa (the  main two figures of authority that she had) to be , but she suffered for it, and was manipulated by much older people like Cersei and LF. Yes, she lied about the butcher boy, but it was obvious that she was under duress and was scared of telling the truth because she was scared of Joffrey and Cersei. She was damn stupid to trust them after that, but so was Ned. She was like 12 and thrust into a position that not many grown men have made out of successfully. 

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He did. Like everything else in this storyline it happened off screen. 

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