Iron Mother

[SPOILERS] The Marriage: Discussing Rhaegar, Elia, and Lyanna

132 posts in this topic

10 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

You're bringing a lot of book material into this that was never mentioned in the show. There's been no mention of Rhaegar having any knowledge or interest in prophecies, or needing three heads of a dragon, so to try and understand that as his motivation (in the show) seems sketchy.

Not really.  Because there has to be a reason Rhaegar went to the extraordinary lengths to legally stop one marriage and legally start another legally.  From this we can infer there were far greater reasons than a Springtime love affair.  And using those reasons from the book, we can make the connection.

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10 hours ago, falcotron said:

I think they simplified the story by having show!Rhaegar be just a guy who fell in love with Lyanna, and had his marriage to Elia annulled because he wanted to be married to Lyanna, not because he was going to extraordinary lengths to fulfill a prophecy.

It could be.  With the lazy and quick writing that has been of late, they could be making this all out to be a battle in the end between AeJon and Daenerys about WHO really has the right claim to the Iron Throne.

That would be a really vapid way to go with the show.  :(

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11 hours ago, dantares83 said:

well, he annulled their marriage meaning the children he had with Elia are not longer legitimate. they were born without their parents being properly married. annulled means the marriage was never there. it was 'fake'. 

They died. 

Maybe he knew that was going to happen.

And no one knows the "laws" of Westeros whether the children are then labeled "bastards" after annulment. 

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42 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Love can make fools of us, if we let it.  But what happened when they realized what they had done?

What happened? Well, before Rhaegar could fix anything, his dad went and murdered two Starks and forced the realm into a civil war.

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12 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

It could be.  With the lazy and quick writing that has been of late, they could be making this all out to be a battle in the end between AeJon and Daenerys about WHO really has the right claim to the Iron Throne.

That would be a really vapid way to go with the show.  :(

I think the whole point of revealing R+L=J to Dany and Jon is the same as in the books—the struggle will not be a war, it will be Dany's own struggle over what it means. She'll have conversations with multiple characters before she finally gets to the conclusion that she was wrong all along to think her birthright guarantees that she either will or should be Queen, but that she actually does have better reasons to take the throne after all.

And that will be 100% the end of it. Jon will immediately endorse those reasons, she'll accept his proposal which will unite the claims anyway and make the question moot, and then one of them will die so there won't even be any tension over how the joint monarchy will work out. But not all of that will be the same as the books, just the basic idea that the only meaningful struggle over Jon's claim will be Dany's internal struggle.

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14 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

Not really.  Because there has to be a reason Rhaegar went to the extraordinary lengths to legally stop one marriage and legally start another legally.  From this we can infer there were far greater reasons than a Springtime love affair.  And using those reasons from the book, we can make the connection.

Sorry, but I'm extremely reluctant to use any information in the books now to determine backstory, motives, explanations in the show because it's been shown to be wrong so many times. The Iron Bank of Braavos funds slavery in the show, polygamy was never apparently a thing in the show, murdering your king and telling everyone about it is OK in the show (Euron/Balon) etc. So now I just consider them completely separate canons and don't use either one as evidence for the other. So I won't accept the prophecy was a motive for show Rhaegar without actual show evidence. Actually, I don't think there's anything in the show that mentions that Elia couldn't have more children anyway.

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10 hours ago, falcotron said:

But he didn't make their children bastards.

The majority of medieval annulments didn't delegitimize the children.* In the modern Catholic Church, and most other religions, and most countries, it doesn't. There's no evidence in the show or the books that Westeros is any different from our world in this way. The show certainly never said the children were bastards.

So, why are so many fans not only making this assumption, but dead certain of it?

---

* And even of those that did, it seems like there was often a separate explicit decree making them bastards.

I agree with falcotron that we can defintely not draw the conclusion that the children were automatically made bastards when the marriage of their parents was annulled. While it is true that annullment means that the marriage wasn't valid from the start I can show you at least one historical example where the children weren't made bastards after the annulment and I am sure there are more.

When the marriage of the french king Louis VII and his wife Eleanor of Aquitaine was annulled in 1152 their two daughters were declared legitimate. It is stated in this Wikipedia article and probably other sources so feel free to look it up.

Of course we don't know if the laws for annulment are the same in Westeros but unless we know something that points in this direction it seems overhasty to be dead certain that Aegon and Rhaenys were made bastards.

 

On grounds for the annulment we can only speculate. But when nobles in the middle ages wanted an annulment they usually found some reason and if not a "generous donation" to the church probably solved the problem. Henry VIII being the exception, of course.

 

41 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

As for Elia... Well, since we're basing this purely on the show, the only indication that we have is that she loved Rhaegar (per Oberyn). So, in terms of the show, I can't see why she'd agree to this annulment and marriage to another woman. There's no prophecy for her to believe in, she'd have to be a fool not to be afraid of a legitimate child of another woman from a more powerful House and, if she did indeed love Rhaegar, she'd probably be reluctant to lose him.

After all what we have heard about Rhaegar's personality I don't think he would have annulled the marriage without asking Elia. But I could imagine that Elia was not very happy in King's Landing because she didn't want the marriage from the start and was opposed by the whole court which thought her to be too frail and not worthy of the crown prince. So maybe she saw the annulment as a chance to return home.

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8 minutes ago, Sielk said:

After all what we have heard about Rhaegar's personality I don't think he would have annulled the marriage without asking Elia. But I could imagine that Elia was not very happy in King's Landing because she didn't want the marriage from the start and was opposed by the whole court which thought her to be too frail and not worthy of the crown prince. So maybe she saw the annulment as a chance to return home.

But again, the only indication we get in the show about Elia's feelings is that she loved Rhaegar. We hear nothing about her being reluctant to marry him, or wanting to return home.

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1 minute ago, WSmith84 said:

But again, the only indication we get in the show about Elia's feelings is that she loved Rhaegar. We hear nothing about her being reluctant to marry him, or wanting to return home.

Of course you're right, what I said was speculation and more on the basis of the books. But I think you can't do much more than speculation when you talk about Elia and even more so when you just rely on the show as source.

The only real show source (correct me if I am wrong!) about Elia's relationship to Rhaegar was what Oberyn said when he visited King's Landing. But to begin, he was not present during the three years Rhaegar and Elia where married so he can have an indirect impression of their marriage at best. And he was full of anger and a desire to get revenge for Elia and also grief when he said that. Combined with his character I strongly assume he didn't really care how his sister's marriage was in truth but just searched for a scapegoat he could hate for his sister's death. And Rhaegar was perfect for this role.

So I would call Oberyn everything but a reliable source regarding this matter and thus, in my opinion, deprives us of every opportunity to give any real arguments on this which are not speculation.

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17 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

 

Now that we have seen a beginning to the mystery of Rhaegar and Jon's origin, it is certainly appropriate to begin speculation on the yet-to-be-seen circumstances surrounding Jon's birth and Rhaegar's relationships with his wives.

The idea  that Rhaegar strongly believed he HAD to have more than 2 offspring (specifically 3 - according to his belief "The Dragon Has 3 Heads") Elia Martell (his then current wife) was not able to produce a 3rd offspring.  Therefore, Rhaegar may have had ample reason to set her aside (and possibly with her blessing based on his beliefs) to produce a 3rd offspring.

He obviously loved Lyanna from what we have known about him naming her Queen of Love & Beauty at the tourney of Harrenhal, and now episode 7 has shown us that to make the 3rd child legitimate, Rhaegar set aside Elia and married her.

In the books even, they were trying to maneuver Marjorie to marry ROBERT and Cersei was worried about being "set aside".   So, there is precedent for this.  Cersei and Robert already had children together.  He was King, yes, but Rhaegar was royalty also.  He was the Crown Prince.  Who knows if "common folk" can do this, but royalty can.

A lot of ragging on Rhaegar has happened as if he threw Elia away basically.... but having co-habited with her as a married couple for as many years to produce 2 children (Rhaenys was 3yo when she was killed) Elia was no stranger to Rhaegar... meaning, she was not a new wife of a small period of time.  She likely knew him well.  While we do not have yet a perspective of how she felt about him.  Everyone beside Oberyn Martell basically loved him and all proclaimed him to be a most noble man.

I would believe Elia Martell knew and trusted Rhaegar's belief he had to produce another child.  If Elia could not, he took another wife to produce the 3rd "head of the Dragon".  We will find out soon more perspective on this... maybe not from Elia's POV... however, knowing the little bits from many people who knew Rhaegar this is (like Ned coming home with a bastard child) NOT in his character to flagrantly blow off his wife to get with someone else.

The "prophecy" Rhaegar believed in has come to pass in that Jon was hidden in plain sight and survived the slayings of The Mountain and the whole Rebellion.  Had Rhaegar not produced Jon, there would be none of his line left to inherit the Throne.  OR it could have been a lot more about the 3rd Head not just about the Throne.  Look at all Jon has done and accomplished and probably WILL accomplish before everything is done.  Jon is a "chosen" figure - a Savior archetype - and his presence in the world may not be just about Rhaegar being the Crown Prince and having an heir in Jon.

Rhaegar seems to have gone through, tho, all the right steps to preserve his line (an heir) by making sure the first marriage was annulled and the second was consecrated properly.  I said this long long ago that Rhaegar married Lyanna and it was not a bastard situation and everyone just laughed.

I believe Jon and Daenerys will produce a child together confirming the Ice and Fire prophecy spoken by Lady Mel.... she has "brought Ice and Fire together".  Perhaps THIS was Rhaegar's ultimate goal to resurrect the Targaryen line through them..... because currently, Daenerys has always been reminding people she is THE LAST Targaryen.  "Incest" aside, this has been the Targaryen Way for a long, long time to procreate within a close familial proximity.

I also think Jon and Daenerys' "union" will occur before they learn Jon's heritage.  And she will become With Child from that union before they learn Jon and she are blood related.  Less and less do I think Rhaegar was doing all this to place Jon on the Throne but that Jon would be a part of bringing back the Targaryen line.  OR that he was not sure...... but he knew the 3rd child was something he MUST produce and he had to do it at all cost.

*sidenote: As I write this, I get the feeling the "child" will be more about reviving the Targaryens..... and ultimately, it will be GENDRY who will become legitimized and given the throne as Robert's heir.  This, because I think Jon might die at some point and Daenerys will eventually give up her belief to want the Iron Throne.  She will realize the Rebellion was right in that the Mad King was not fit to rule and the Rebellion was not a "usurper" but legitimately necessary.  And with Rhaegar dead and all his children dead (Jon hidden away) there was no Targaryen heir to take the Throne at that time.  And like I said, if Jon dies or rejects the Throne (which is highly likely) Gendry could assume it through being legitimized and Daenerys no longer wanting it either.  And as we saw in the show, Joffrey hunted down every single bastard of Robert.  Except Gendry slipped past.  This  is a call back to Jon Arryn singling out Gendry in secret which led to Ned finding him at work as a Smith.

What say the Forum?

Sorry but I have to repeat what other people have said but you chose refusing to listen to. 

You are using knowledge of book Rhaegar to explain show Rhaegar. 

This is totally wrong.

In the show, there is no information about Elia can not have third child. 

There is no information about Rhaegar needs a third "head". 

There is no information about Rhaegar is very into prophecy. 

So all of you opinion are baseless and invalid. 

In the show, Rhaegar is a handsome and gentle prince who likes to sing. 

That is it. 

he did what he did to get into Lyanna's pants. 

Simple and straightforward. 

I do not understand why you feel Rhaegar has to have a special reason (other than his love and desire in Lyanna) to do what he did. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I’d long suspected, even before this series, that something was amiss with regards to Elia, something Rhaegar discovered. I think, subsequent to the Tourney at Harrenhal, that Rhaegar possibly found out the kids weren’t his, and this led him to seek out Lyanna. 

Aegon is most likely Jon’s name in the books aswell (I can’t imagine D&D just making this up), which leads me to believe the purported son of Rhaegar and Elia was never a Targaryen at all (but possibly the son of Ashara Dayne). This scenario allows Varys’ baby-switch but fAegon is still fake. 

A switcheroo too far?

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13 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

We have no idea what Elia knew or thought or felt.  That's why I made this thread.  I think she did know and was behind him to do this.  Rhaegar was an amazingly honorable man..... and Elia lived with him as man and wife for at least three years.  They weren't strangers to each other. 

I can't wait to find out how Elia fits in to all this.

And he did not "make bastard" he annulled the marriage to Elia then married Lyanna which makes it legitimate birth.  Did you watch tonight's episode? 

He sure seemed like it. I bet that was what Elia was thinking when her children were being murdered and she was being raped.

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Posted (edited)

19 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

 

Now that we have seen a beginning to the mystery of Rhaegar and Jon's origin, it is certainly appropriate to begin speculation on the yet-to-be-seen circumstances surrounding Jon's birth and Rhaegar's relationships with his wives.

The idea  that Rhaegar strongly believed he HAD to have more than 2 offspring (specifically 3 - according to his belief "The Dragon Has 3 Heads") Elia Martell (his then current wife) was not able to produce a 3rd offspring.  Therefore, Rhaegar may have had ample reason to set her aside (and possibly with her blessing based on his beliefs) to produce a 3rd offspring.

He obviously loved Lyanna from what we have known about him naming her Queen of Love & Beauty at the tourney of Harrenhal, and now episode 7 has shown us that to make the 3rd child legitimate, Rhaegar set aside Elia and married her.

In the books even, they were trying to maneuver Marjorie to marry ROBERT and Cersei was worried about being "set aside".   So, there is precedent for this.  Cersei and Robert already had children together.  He was King, yes, but Rhaegar was royalty also.  He was the Crown Prince.  Who knows if "common folk" can do this, but royalty can.

A lot of ragging on Rhaegar has happened as if he threw Elia away basically.... but having co-habited with her as a married couple for as many years to produce 2 children (Rhaenys was 3yo when she was killed) Elia was no stranger to Rhaegar... meaning, she was not a new wife of a small period of time.  She likely knew him well.  While we do not have yet a perspective of how she felt about him.  Everyone beside Oberyn Martell basically loved him and all proclaimed him to be a most noble man.

I would believe Elia Martell knew and trusted Rhaegar's belief he had to produce another child.  If Elia could not, he took another wife to produce the 3rd "head of the Dragon".  We will find out soon more perspective on this... maybe not from Elia's POV... however, knowing the little bits from many people who knew Rhaegar this is (like Ned coming home with a bastard child) NOT in his character to flagrantly blow off his wife to get with someone else.

The "prophecy" Rhaegar believed in has come to pass in that Jon was hidden in plain sight and survived the slayings of The Mountain and the whole Rebellion.  Had Rhaegar not produced Jon, there would be none of his line left to inherit the Throne.  OR it could have been a lot more about the 3rd Head not just about the Throne.  Look at all Jon has done and accomplished and probably WILL accomplish before everything is done.  Jon is a "chosen" figure - a Savior archetype - and his presence in the world may not be just about Rhaegar being the Crown Prince and having an heir in Jon.

Rhaegar seems to have gone through, tho, all the right steps to preserve his line (an heir) by making sure the first marriage was annulled and the second was consecrated properly.  I said this long long ago that Rhaegar married Lyanna and it was not a bastard situation and everyone just laughed.

I believe Jon and Daenerys will produce a child together confirming the Ice and Fire prophecy spoken by Lady Mel.... she has "brought Ice and Fire together".  Perhaps THIS was Rhaegar's ultimate goal to resurrect the Targaryen line through them..... because currently, Daenerys has always been reminding people she is THE LAST Targaryen.  "Incest" aside, this has been the Targaryen Way for a long, long time to procreate within a close familial proximity.

I also think Jon and Daenerys' "union" will occur before they learn Jon's heritage.  And she will become With Child from that union before they learn Jon and she are blood related.  Less and less do I think Rhaegar was doing all this to place Jon on the Throne but that Jon would be a part of bringing back the Targaryen line.  OR that he was not sure...... but he knew the 3rd child was something he MUST produce and he had to do it at all cost.

*sidenote: As I write this, I get the feeling the "child" will be more about reviving the Targaryens..... and ultimately, it will be GENDRY who will become legitimized and given the throne as Robert's heir.  This, because I think Jon might die at some point and Daenerys will eventually give up her belief to want the Iron Throne.  She will realize the Rebellion was right in that the Mad King was not fit to rule and the Rebellion was not a "usurper" but legitimately necessary.  And with Rhaegar dead and all his children dead (Jon hidden away) there was no Targaryen heir to take the Throne at that time.  And like I said, if Jon dies or rejects the Throne (which is highly likely) Gendry could assume it through being legitimized and Daenerys no longer wanting it either.  And as we saw in the show, Joffrey hunted down every single bastard of Robert.  Except Gendry slipped past.  This  is a call back to Jon Arryn singling out Gendry in secret which led to Ned finding him at work as a Smith.

What say the Forum?

It's no coincidence that Ice (Stark) and fire (Targ) are the only 2 noble houses in Westeros that possess magical qualities.  The culmination of the name of the series has played out before our eyes in many ways.  Living vs dead, winter vs summer, south vs north, Lyanna and Rhaegar, Jon and Dany, and just flat out Jon being both at the same time, not to mention he is both dead and alive.  

I do however feel that in the show what you said about the prophecy and Rhaegar's beliefs is waaaaay too complicated for it. They will just simply say that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away with each because they were in love.  That's way more palatable for a television audience.  I don't think we get anything about Rhaegar's belief in the prophecy or 3 heads of the dragon.  There won't be 3 dragon riders in the show unless you count Bran warging into one or The Night King as a dragon rider which I guess now technically he is, but I just don't see them going into it.  The way I see this show playing out now is Jon finds out by Bran he is Aegon Targaryean heir to the iron throne and Dany's nephew.  Being that he was raised a Stark he will feel really bad about sleeping with her, I think he keeps it to himself and distances himself from Dany until he finds out she is pregnant and has time to come to grips with the fact that this is normal in his father's side of the family and his fear of fathering a bastard and his love for Dany will overcome his negative outlook on the whole incest thing.  Remember he was raised by a man and family that did not understand or practice purification of bloodlines through incest. But like I said he will eventually get over it, and I think they have a child, and maybe they both die, maybe one of them does, maybe they both live, I'm not real sure about that part.  

The books on the other hand, you could be spot on about Rhaegar and his motives, it's highly plausible.  As far as the Gendry thing I just don't know.  Jon was raised by a man who called him son, Ned was Jon's dad let's not forget that, may not have been his father but he was his dad, to be completely honor bound and loyal to your family.  Jon may feel like he is honor bound to fulfill his duty as a Targaryean and a Stark, not have the throne go to the son of a king who killed his father who tried to protect him and his mother from him.  A man who would have had Jon murdered like his half siblings had he known the truth.  A man who paid assassins to murder his aunt and mother of his child.  He won't hold that against Gendry, but I think he will feel honor bound to see his child or Dany sit on the throne and his sister rule in the north.  I think Dany and Jon will pretty much hook up and he will impregnate her in the books as well, it just won't all happen the same way it did in the show and we will also know more about the story on why Rhaegar did what he did, and his beliefs in prophecies and whatnot.  

Edited by SerJeremiahLouistark

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Posted (edited)

49 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

The way I see this show playing out now is Jon finds out by Bran he is Aegon Targaryean heir to the iron throne and Dany's nephew.  Being that he was raised a Stark he will feel really bad about sleeping with her, I think he keeps it to himself and distances himself from Dany until he finds out she is pregnant and has time to come to grips with the fact that this is normal in his father's side of the family and his fear of fathering a bastard and his love for Dany will overcome his negative outlook on the whole incest thing.  Remember he was raised by a man and family that did not understand or practice purification of bloodlines through incest. 

Medieval people define "incest" to mean immediate family only—siblings and parents. Starks aren't any different. Jon was raised by a man whose own parents were cousins. There are similar marriages all up and down the Stark family tree. And the same for all the other nobles houses (with some exceptions in Dorne and the Reach). And for real-world European royalty and upper nobility until the last century or so. For Jon to feel anything negative at all would be not only anachronistic, but against his Stark heritage.

He does have other reasons to feel bad. But they won't lead him to avoid Dany.

They're rival claimants to the same throne. But that's a reason to marry her. Especially if he doesn't want to press his claim, and doesn't want anyone else to press it for him. The only alternative is to go Aemon Targaryen and do everything possible to make his claim as hard as possible to press, but he's already basically been trying that and it hasn't worked so well. A marriage to unite the claims, that's something his Stark grandfather—the man who arranged marriages between the Stark, Tully, and Arryn families—would definitely have understood.

And of course he "soiled her honor". Exactly like Robb. And he'll handle it exactly the same way Robb did—by proposing the next morning. Dany will probably scoff at that. She's not Jeyne Westerling or Talisa Maegyr, she's a widow, she's already had plenty of extramarital sex whenever she wanted to, and she's not going to be forced into a marriage just because she did it again. But I could definitely see him trying it.

If anyone changes their mind upon discovering the pregnancy, it'll be Dany, who realizes that her destiny happens to match what she wants in her heart, so she's being obstinate in resisting it, and she'll say yes after all.

ETA: If you don't understand why medieval families marry their cousins so often, even though they have no interest in "purification of bloodlines", here's the short version.

First, you're expected to marry within your own social level, and generally only have candidates within your own area, and that severely limits the choices. If you turn to the daughter of a vassal or a neighbor to find a daughter, there's a pretty good chance it'll be the same vassal or neighbor your grandfather got a daughter from, or that you aunt married into, just because there aren't that many vassals or neighbors who have a daughter the right age.

Second, the whole "uniting the claims" thing I mentioned above comes up a lot more often than you'd expect. We tend to think of primogeniture as a strict set of objective rules, but the reason we have those rules is that parliaments passed laws after everyone was sick of centuries of succession struggles like, say, the War of the Roses. Westerosi law is, if anything, in a more primitive state than 15th century England's. Look at the examples we see, like Bran deciding what to do with the Hornwood inheritance. So, if you can avoid proliferating competing claims, that helps hold your family's future together.

Edited by falcotron
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7 hours ago, tugela said:

A marriage can only be annulled if it was either not consummated or was illegal to start with. So, if Rhaegar really did do this, then there must have been something like that with his original marriage. It is possible that the real father of Elia's children was the mad king, and that is the reason he made them stay in King's Landing. Maybe Elia did not want to leave him, so she stayed even though it was clear the city would fall.

That would be grounds for annulment. Failing that, Rhaegar as crown prince would not have been able to do this on his own accord, he would have required his father's permission otherwise it would be an act of treason. That would make the annulment and subsequent re-marrying illegal and illegitimate.

When the marriage to Elia was annulled, her children would have become bastards. It is highly unlikely that Rhaegar would have done that to his own children (if they really were his) just to get in Lyanna's pants, given that he is portrayed as this noble character.

The whole annulment thing just does not ring true unless Rhaegar was not the father of her two children.

In any case, no one in Westeros is realistically going to believe some claim based just off some crazy dude's visions and a supposed transcribed diary. There are no DNA tests, no proper legal documents, no witnesses, just some ceremony held in secret that supporters and family members of the supposed king just happen to be aware of through third parties. Hardly a compelling argument and I have a hard time believing that any self respecting lord of Westeros would fall for that one.

How do we know any of this tho ?  We don't know all these laws of westeros do we?

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Here is the troubling part. The book/show tells us that Lyanna was willful and impulsive and strong and beautiful.  Also a Stark, which prolly means she was honest and direct.  The book/show tells us Rhaegar was loved and revered by his people, kind, thoughtful, and musical.  So, how is it that these two ran away to get married, then let the entire world go to hell, bring war, and the deaths of many, many good people. 

Either Rhaegar and Lyanna were not the good people that have been shown to us, or there is some other reason for the war that we do not yet know. 

The most obvious reason why they kept their marriage in secret, is because their parents would never agree to it.

I wrote a theory why Rhaegar annuled his marriage with Elia, and cast aside his children, yet that didn't make him a scoundrell (in my previous post).

I don't think that Lyanna wanted to marry with Robert. Their marriage was arranged by Lyanna's father and brothers, because Ned and Robert were best friends. While Rheagar was beautiful, kind, chivalrous, sophysticated and so on, Robert was ugly, vulgar, primitive, he drank too much, and was a horndog. Understandably she choose Rhaegar over Robert. Also she herself never made any promises to Robert. Their marriage agreement was made between Robert and Lyanna's family, without her consent. Just look at that disgusting pig - who would want to marry him?

So the only thing that Lyanna owned Robert was an explanation why she won't marry him. They met, she told him that she's ditching him for Rhaegar, and he pretended that he's Ok with that. Maybe when Lyanna was leaving, Robert told her that he himself will talk with her family and convince them that they should let her be with Rhaegar. So she thought that her family knew about her love and marriage. But after Rhaegar and Lyanna went to Dorne, Robert went to her family and told everyone that Lyanna was kidnapped. Then Lyanna's father and brother went to Mad King, etc.

Allegedly Mad King imprisoned and then killed them. Though I think that there's another possibility.

Spoiler

When Starks came to Red Keep, demanding Rhaegar's death, Aerys indeed imprisoned them. But then he let them explain their behaviour, and after listening to their reasons, he released them. And he said to them that he will find out from Rhaegar what happened. Because he didn't believe that his good son Rhaegar was capable of doing something like this. And he also convinced them that they should cool down and wait. King left, but when Starks were going to leave, they were intercepted by Lannisters.

Tywin and Robert conspired against Targariens, and used Starks to begin rebellion. They killed Ned's father and brother, and spread rumours that they were killed by King. Then when Rhaegar came back from Dorne, summoned by his father to give explanations, on his way to King's Landing he was intercepted and killed by Robert. Tywin and Robert agreed that Robert will become a king, and he will marry Cersei. Tywin had no legal means to claim crown for himself, but Robert was partially a Targarien. That's the reason why he became new king, and not Jaime, who killed Mad King, and not Ned, even though he suffered the most (lost his father, brother and sister) and was main driving force of rebellion (North, Riverlands and Vale joined Robert's rebellion for Ned, not for Robert).

Robert's lose - his fiance was kidnapped. So what?

Ned's lose - his father and brother were killed, and sister kidnapped. Brandon Stark was supposed to marry with Catelyn Tully, after his death she married with Ned. That's why Riverlands participated in rebellion. Both Robert and Ned were protege of Jon Arryn Lord of The Vale, and he joined their rebellion mostly for Ned's sake.

Robert married with Cersei, as he agreed with Tywin, and he planned to keep Lyanna as his mistress. He thought that she doesn't deserve to become his wife, after she betrayed him. Though he still was unwilling to let her go, he still loved her too much. But she died and was freed from him.

And another one of my crazy theories - why Tywin conspired against King Aerys:

Spoiler

Tywin and Aerys both were gay. They fell in love from first sight. Aerys made Tywin Hand of the King (sort of gave him status of his life partner). But Aerys, like nearly all Targariens before him, married with his sister, which didn't make Tywin very pleased. Though Aerys was always cruel to his wife, and raped her, because he didn't desired her, didn't wanted to be with her. But he had no choise, because he had to have a 100% Targarien babies, so he needed her.

Then Tywin offered to unite their families thru marriage between their children (Rhaegar + Cersei), but Aerys rejected him again <- at least that's how Tywin took it (first Aerys choose his sister over Tywin, and then he choose Elia Martell (politically benefitual marriage) over Cersei Lannister (marriage that was supposed to be declaration of their love for each other). But Aerys thought that their love doesn't need any official assurances. On the other hand, political marriage with Dorne, is exactly what will benefit Targariens. TWICE he choose Targariens's prosperity over Tywin's wishes.

Later their relationship became strained, so Aerys did what he thought will please Tywin - he offered to Tywin's son to join Kingsguard, and Jaime became the youngest member in the history of the prestigious knightly order. Though originally it wasn't Aerys's idea. At that time Cersei also was living at King's Landing, so Aerys asked her advice what he should do to make her father happy. But Cersei was thinking about her own happines, so she offered what was benefitual to her. She knew that Tywin was planning to marry her beloved brother Jaime to ugly Lysa Tully, so to prevent that marriage from happening, Cersei offered Aerys to make Jaime join Kingsguard. By doing this Aerys inadvertedly took away Lannister's sole heir. And this action became a final straw for Tywin. He said that he's ill, resigned his position as Hand of the King, took Cersei and went back to Casterly Rock.

When Jaime became Kingsguard, Aerys sent him back to King's Landing, and entrusted him to guard his most precious treasure - Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys. Also he didn't let him to participate in Walter Whent's tourney, because he didn't wanted Tywin's son to be in danger. But Jaime had different impression from this situation - he was convinced that the king had only chosen him for the Kingsguard to slight Lord Tywin, of whom Aerys was insanely jealous, and to rob him of his heir <- that's what he thought according to ASOIAF wikia. But why would Aerys be jealous of Tywin? And if he was jealous then why did he made him his Hand? They were friends since their childhood.

Also when young Tywin was sent to King's Landing, he was serving there as royal cupbearer <- that may be a hint from George Martin that Tywin indeed was gay. For example lover of greek god Zeus Ganymede served as cupbearer to the gods of Olympus.

After death of Tywin's father he punished his father's mistress for taking his late mother's jewellery and gowns <- why would straight man even care about stuff like that?

"Tywin found his father's new mistress trying on one of his late mother's gowns" <- maybe he himself went to his mother's wardrobe to try something on.

I'm just kidding, don't take it too seriously.

Entire part "Early life" from Tywin's page on wikia could be read as his attempts to become worthy of Aerys. Also when Aerys won his knighthood, Tywin was granted the honor of knighting his friend <- maybe because Aerys himself asked him to be the one :wub:  When Aerys became King he choosen Tywin as Hand of the King.  

Tywin married only once, with his cousin Joanna Lannister. And they were besties.

"It was said that though Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms (as Hand) he was ruled at home by his lady wife" <- that's totally gay.

"Some people joked it was he and not the king who really ruled the land. It ended when Aerys' increasing paranoia and jealousy drove the two into several bitter disagreements".

And those disagreements are: 1. Aerys choosing Rhaella as his life partner over Tywin, 2. Aerys rejecting Tywin's offer to unite their families thru marriage between their children, 3. Aerys making Jaime Kingsguard, which Tywin took as an attempt to deprive him of his heritage, and final blow to their relationship.

That's why when opportunity has risen, he conspired with Robert and betrayed Aerys. It was revenge of angered lover.

 

When Harry Potter book series was completed, J.K.Rowling said in one of her interviews that Albus Dumbledore actually was gay <- THAT was out of the blue. My theory at least has SOME basis.

Edited by Megorova

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2 hours ago, Smokefall said:

I’d long suspected, even before this series, that something was amiss with regards to Elia, something Rhaegar discovered. I think, subsequent to the Tourney at Harrenhal, that Rhaegar possibly found out the kids weren’t his, and this led him to seek out Lyanna. 

Aegon is most likely Jon’s name in the books aswell (I can’t imagine D&D just making this up), which leads me to believe the purported son of Rhaegar and Elia was never a Targaryen at all (but possibly the son of Ashara Dayne). This scenario allows Varys’ baby-switch but fAegon is still fake. 

A switcheroo too far?

Wasn't baby Aegon born and named before Jon Snow was born? Point being, if Rhaegar just had a baby boy with Elia Martell and named him Aegon... would he really go and give another son the same name?

I get it that he's obsessed with the prophecy and all and thus maybe thought he would just have a bunch of sons and name them all Aegon to hopefully fulfill the prophecy... but this sounds kind of ridiculous.

This makes a lot of sense for why D&D didnt include Young Griff in the show though. A supposed fake Targaryen vs a real Targaryen, both with the same name.

 

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2 hours ago, falcotron said:

Medieval people define "incest" to mean immediate family only—siblings and parents. Starks aren't any different. Jon was raised by a man whose own parents were cousins. There are similar marriages all up and down the Stark family tree. And the same for all the other nobles houses (with some exceptions in Dorne and the Reach). And for real-world European royalty and upper nobility until the last century or so. For Jon to feel anything negative at all would be not only anachronistic, but against his Stark heritage.

He does have other reasons to feel bad. But they won't lead him to avoid Dany.

They're rival claimants to the same throne. But that's a reason to marry her. Especially if he doesn't want to press his claim, and doesn't want anyone else to press it for him. The only alternative is to go Aemon Targaryen and do everything possible to make his claim as hard as possible to press, but he's already basically been trying that and it hasn't worked so well. A marriage to unite the claims, that's something his Stark grandfather—the man who arranged marriages between the Stark, Tully, and Arryn families—would definitely have understood.

And of course he "soiled her honor". Exactly like Robb. And he'll handle it exactly the same way Robb did—by proposing the next morning. Dany will probably scoff at that. She's not Jeyne Westerling or Talisa Maegyr, she's a widow, she's already had plenty of extramarital sex whenever she wanted to, and she's not going to be forced into a marriage just because she did it again. But I could definitely see him trying it.

If anyone changes their mind upon discovering the pregnancy, it'll be Dany, who realizes that her destiny happens to match what she wants in her heart, so she's being obstinate in resisting it, and she'll say yes after all.

ETA: If you don't understand why medieval families marry their cousins so often, even though they have no interest in "purification of bloodlines", here's the short version.

First, you're expected to marry within your own social level, and generally only have candidates within your own area, and that severely limits the choices. If you turn to the daughter of a vassal or a neighbor to find a daughter, there's a pretty good chance it'll be the same vassal or neighbor your grandfather got a daughter from, or that you aunt married into, just because there aren't that many vassals or neighbors who have a daughter the right age.

Second, the whole "uniting the claims" thing I mentioned above comes up a lot more often than you'd expect. We tend to think of primogeniture as a strict set of objective rules, but the reason we have those rules is that parliaments passed laws after everyone was sick of centuries of succession struggles like, say, the War of the Roses. Westerosi law is, if anything, in a more primitive state than 15th century England's. Look at the examples we see, like Bran deciding what to do with the Hornwood inheritance. So, if you can avoid proliferating competing claims, that helps hold your family's future together.

I don't think he will just tell her to fuck off, I think he will have trouble with dealing with the information, and will be put off by the fact that they are related (at first) and also feel that Dany may see him as a rival so he will struggle with telling her.  That's why I think he will be distant from her.  Not distant in terms of logistics, but not the same as he has been over the last 2 episodes.  I think he will eventually and possibly pretty quickly get over it though.  1 because he loves her.  2 because of his fear of fathering a bastard.  And 3 because he is duty and honor bound to protect and even die to ensure the line of Targs and Starks continue, because his father had nothing to do with Rickard or Brandon's death, and loved his mother who was a Stark, and the only dad he knew Ned, risked everything to ensure Jon wasn't killed as an infant.  In a way Rhaegar died to protect his son.  Lyanna died giving birth to him.  And Ned was the only person who protected him from what would have been his fate and also spoke out and strongly opposed Robert and the Lannister's treatment of Jon's half siblings and wanted the Lannisters punished, as well as opposing the assassinstion attempts on Dany.  Not to mention his child will be a Targ too, so there's that reason as well.  

Whats Wild is Jon's grandfather killed his other grandfather and uncle.  His father ran away with his mother who was betrothed to the man that would eventually kill his father and would have killed him and Dany if given the chance or if his assassins would have gotten to her.  His "father" Ned protected his identity and betrayed the new King and his best friend, and soiled his own reputation of honor by lying and say he had a child out of wedlock, when in reality he was being even more honorable than his reputation, and even lied to his own wife.  Who by the way (Catelyn) would never have married Ned nor had their children had Rhaegar and Lyanna not run off.  The irony behind that last one is that Cat treated Jon like shit, when in reality he is the product of the only reason she had Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon.  Because if Rhaegar and Lyanna don't fall in love and run, Rickard doesn't go to Kings Landing, and neither does Brandon, and Brandon and Cat marry.  

We may also find out that Rhaegar the Crown Prince had plans to usurp his own father, and then announce he and Lyanna were in love and married.  But his father called for the heads of everyone and they rebelled and he felt the only way to protect his heir and Lyanna was to kill Robert first and then his own father.  Quite honestly if he would have just done that to begin with, he may have only had to deal with Robert.  That whole thing with the Starks, while they may not have been too happy about it, they might have sought out a better way to deal with it than hauling ass to Kings Landing and demanding Lyanna be returned and Rhaegar punished for his crimes.  

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17 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

I don't think he will just tell her to fuck off, I think he will have trouble with dealing with the information, and will be put off by the fact that they are related (at first)

But again, why would that bother him at all? It's like expecting a Dothraki to be put off by drinking horse milk.

21 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

We may also find out that Rhaegar the Crown Prince had plans to usurp his own father, and then announce he and Lyanna were in love and married.

Of course there are a ton of hints toward that in the books, but so far nothing on the show. I could only see them adding it in this late if it somehow affected the present-day story, and I'm not seeing how it would. (Which could well just be a failure of my imagination—if you've got an idea, I'd love to hear it, because it would be great to believe we're going to get more background stuff in S8.)

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6 minutes ago, falcotron said:

But again, why would that bother him at all? It's like expecting a Dothraki to be put off by drinking horse milk.

Of course there are a ton of hints toward that in the books, but so far nothing on the show. I could only see them adding it in this late if it somehow affected the present-day story, and I'm not seeing how it would. (Which could well just be a failure of my imagination—if you've got an idea, I'd love to hear it, because it would be great to believe we're going to get more background stuff in S8.)

It may not bother him in the books, but the show has painted this picture of incest being taboo because of the Lannisters. I just have a feeling that's how it's gonna play out in the show.  

The Rhaegar usurping thing could easily be thrown into a Bran vision.  The reason to add it is to get Jon to feel honor bound to uphold his father's wishes.  He may even think like some on this board and feel like because Lyanna and Rhaegar ran away their actions caused so many to die over love, and something like knowing Rhaegar was going to try and kill his father for killing the woman he loves family, could help him accept what he has to do, and he may even see that Rhaegar rode off to fight Robert because he felt Robert would kill his soon to be born child and Lyanna.  Also what if he felt he could just kill Robert, and then get to his father before before anyone else could, call off the bounty on Ned, and offer the death of his father as payment for Aerys crimes, then have Lyanna tell Ned she loves Rhaegar and they are married.  Ned wouldn't have fought that.  He would have done anything to protect his sister and her wishes.  Especially being he was thrust into a role he never intended having, the 2 people who would have been and were in that role, (Richard Brandon)  forbid the marriage were already dead.  Ned and Lyanna were close. I think he would have done anything she asked him.  And knowing all that could help Jon accept who he is and what he must do a little better of a little quicker.  

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