Iron Mother

[SPOILERS] The Marriage: Discussing Rhaegar, Elia, and Lyanna

132 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, MrJay said:

Late so I'm sorry if this was discussed already (should probably read every post)

Yes, most of it has already been discussed. But I'll summarize it for you anyway:

2 hours ago, MrJay said:

why would Rhaegar have to divorce? 

Well, he didn't. Annulment is not the same thing as divorce. Most people who are angry about this, that's actually part of what they're angry about. You seem to think they're the same thing.

2 hours ago, MrJay said:

But why divorce his wife, stripping her of her status as queen and jeopardizing his first sons right to be heir, to remarry...

Neither annulment nor divorce jeopardizes his first sons right to be heir. In the modern day, or in real medieval Europe, or in Westeros. Why would you think otherwise?

2 hours ago, MrJay said:

Especially when polygamy had been established as a thing in his family? 

Polygamy has been established as a thing his family used to do, but haven't done since Maegor. They gave up fighting for that right even before they lost their dragons. There's probably no actual law against it, so Rhaegar could try to revive the practice, but it would hardly be an open-and-shut easy sell to the lords, the people, and the Faith.

Out-of-story, a polygamous marriage would mean Jon's claim is open to question. That might actually be a good plotline for the books, if GRRM wants to spend dozens of pages examining Dany's thoughts on what Jon's claim means to her birthright. But in the show, they're not going to spend dozens of scenes inside Dany's mind, so it would be an extra complication for no actual benefit.

2 hours ago, MrJay said:

Seemed unnecessary to add in the part about the annulment. Hell, did they even have that ability? Like, could a lord divorce his lady at any time? Seems unlikely. 

No, a lord probably can't divorce his lady at any time. That's why Rhaegar got an annulment rather than a divorce. And why he needed the High Septon to do it, rather than just doing it himself.

Annulment is something that happened in medieval Europe. The books, and to a lesser extent the show, have talk of kings or princes setting aside their wives—including the plot to get Robert to set aside Cersei and marry Margy—so clearly it happens there too.

Really, we don't know nearly enough to be sure whether the High Septon actually had the ability to annul this particular marriage—except, of course, that he did so. Since that doesn't contradict anything in the show, or the books, or real-life history, or common sense, there's no reason not to accept it, much less to assume it was impossible and get angry about it.

2 hours ago, MrJay said:

I get that these guys are pandering to us "stupid" watchers who may get confused, but this seemed like an unnecessary addition that just makes the story dumb.

You should be careful about complaining about D&D pandering to stupid watchers who may get confused in the same post that you confuse annulment and divorce, don't remember the history of Targaryen polygamy, missed the point about the High Septon annulling the marriage even though they virtually sledgehammered us with it, etc.

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2 hours ago, falcotron said:

You should be careful about complaining about D&D pandering to stupid watchers who may get confused in the same post that you confuse annulment and divorce

(sigh) I used the two interchangeably and honestly it's a bit annoying you spend so much energy on such a thing. You're arguing semantics now. Even when I started calling it what it was "Annulment" you still continue to talk divorce. Everything you said regarding divorce is moot.

 

Actually, I get it now. Your last little paragraph explains it. You were trying to brow-beat me with that little "confusion of words" so when you jabbed back at my "Stupid" comment something would stick. Sorry, no. All you did was show that you are willing to ignore what you know I meant just so you could make some point.

I'm not even gonna respond further. You're clearly not worth talking to. Feel free to ignore every single post you ever see from me as they are not directed toward you at all.

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17 hours ago, falcotron said:

Neither annulment nor divorce jeopardizes his first sons right to be heir. In the modern day, or in real medieval Europe, or in Westeros. Why would you think otherwise?

Perhaps not on paper, but in practice it certainly would. Rhaegar remarrying means that he can have legitimate children, in this case with the daughter of a more powerful, better-connected lord than his first wife. Targaryen history (unless I'm forgetting something) doesn't show a particularly good track record of children of different mothers: the Dance of the Dragons and Maegor the Cruel. Officially, not much would change for Elia's Aegon but there would certainly be a threat that wasn't present before. I'd say that he jeopardised his son's position, even if he was naive enough to believe that he didn't simply because, legally speaking, nothing changed.

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On 9/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, WSmith84 said:

Perhaps not on paper, but in practice it certainly would. Rhaegar remarrying means that he can have legitimate children, in this case with the daughter of a more powerful, better-connected lord than his first wife. Targaryen history (unless I'm forgetting something) doesn't show a particularly good track record of children of different mothers: the Dance of the Dragons and Maegor the Cruel. Officially, not much would change for Elia's Aegon but there would certainly be a threat that wasn't present before. I'd say that he jeopardised his son's position, even if he was naive enough to believe that he didn't simply because, legally speaking, nothing changed.

It would not be weird in practice either, since that's not how Succession works. Succession works in order of birth, (usually males first.) So it wouldn't matter who the mother was, nor how she was "connected," as long as they are married at the time of birth, and there's no other offspring that are older... even from a previous marriage. 

The Bride/Mother's connections have zero bearing on the Right/Order of Succession. Where does that even apply anywhere - just because someone's second wife knows more people, her offspring should get preferential treatment when it comes to matters of inheritance? Seriously - I've seen this kind of thing posted more than once, and it makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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33 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

The Bride/Mother's connections have zero bearing on the Right/Order of Succession. 

As Jorah once told Dany right after Drogo died, that competing khals would kill her baby by Drogo and start raping her and impregnating her with THEIR heirs.

The animal kingdom is littered with examples of infanticide. A new alpha male often starts off his "reign" by killing the offspring of the defeated alpha. Those children are a waste of his resources and efforts and if the mother is nursing them, she's not bearing and nursing his children.

Similarly, the entire first book addresses how much Cat loathes bastard Jon as a potential threat to Robb, Bran and Rickon. 

If Rhaegar had won at the Trident and brought Lyanna to court as queen, there is immediately massive tension between the northernmost kingdom and Dorne. Could he control them or would it devolve into civil war, with each side fighting for their Aegon to have an advantage for the throne.

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On 9/12/2017 at 3:48 PM, glassgardens said:

As Jorah once told Dany right after Drogo died, that competing khals would kill her baby by Drogo and start raping her and impregnating her with THEIR heirs.

The animal kingdom is littered with examples of infanticide. A new alpha male often starts off his "reign" by killing the offspring of the defeated alpha. Those children are a waste of his resources and efforts and if the mother is nursing them, she's not bearing and nursing his children.

Similarly, the entire first book addresses how much Cat loathes bastard Jon as a potential threat to Robb, Bran and Rickon. 

If Rhaegar had won at the Trident and brought Lyanna to court as queen, there is immediately massive tension between the northernmost kingdom and Dorne. Could he control them or would it devolve into civil war, with each side fighting for their Aegon to have an advantage for the throne.

What does any of that have to do with the Right/Order of Succession when it comes to Monarchies?

If Rhaegar had won at the Trident, it would be an entirely different story, but it still doesn't change the rules regarding Succession in a Monarchy. 

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I do not know if anyone is talking about my OP here which is concerning ELIA, the wife of Rhaegar and if she was complicit.

WHY would Rhaegar take a woman from the North (rather, why would she go with him) to hide IN DORNE?

Does no one find this telling?  He went with her to the place neither of them is from.... and to the lands where Elia is from.  Her family did not know he was there?  SHE did not know they were there?

That is the OP of this thread in case ppl forgot :D

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5 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

I do not know if anyone is talking about my OP here which is concerning ELIA, the wife of Rhaegar and if she was complicit.

WHY would Rhaegar take a woman from the North (rather, why would she go with him) to hide IN DORNE?

Does no one find this telling?  He went with her to the place neither of them is from.... and to the lands where Elia is from.  Her family did not know he was there?  SHE did not know they were there?

That is the OP of this thread in case ppl forgot :D

It could be because of Rhaegar's connection to Summerhall in the dornish marches and have nothing to do with elia.

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4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

It could be because of Rhaegar's connection to Summerhall in the dornish marches and have nothing to do with elia.

Or Arthur Dayne's, his bestie's, connection to Starfall as well as Ashara's connection to the Starks.

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9 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

I do not know if anyone is talking about my OP here which is concerning ELIA, the wife of Rhaegar and if she was complicit.

I doubt it. I know little of Elia, but I doubt that any princess would 1. Step down from being future queen. 2. Jeopardize her children's claim to the throne (and their life) and 3. Allow herself and her family to deal with the shame of being set aside for another.

9 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

WHY would Rhaegar take a woman from the North (rather, why would she go with him) to hide IN DORNE?

I don't know. Some others have thought up some interesting reasons, but I don't see it as a good idea regardless. The Martells rule Dorne. Let that sink in. No matter what Allies Rhaegar has in Dorne, the Martells rule it. Setting aside a Dornish bride like that would be a huge insult to the ruling family, as well as a sort of nose snubbing to the Dornish people as a whole.

 

9 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Does no one find this telling?  He went with her to the place neither of them is from.... and to the lands where Elia is from.  Her family did not know he was there?  SHE did not know they were there?

Hide in plain site? The only explanation I can think of is that he went to the last place anyone would look.

 

9 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

That is the OP of this thread in case ppl forgot :D

What are we talking about again?

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3 hours ago, MrJay said:

I doubt it. I know little of Elia, but I doubt that any princess would 1. Step down from being future queen. 2. Jeopardize her children's claim to the throne (and their life) and 3. Allow herself and her family to deal with the shame of being set aside for another.

Hide in plain site? The only explanation I can think of is that he went to the last place anyone would look.

What are we talking about again?

1) You obviously didn't even read the OP if you are saying she stepped down or jeopardized her children or allowed herself or her family [et al] shame.............................

2) Dorne is hardly plain sight when your wife's family rules there.

3) We are talking about my OP which you obviously didn't read.

Why are you here?

Could his wife of perhaps 5 years have known him enough to trust him/his vision to bear a third child when she could not give him one? 

Did she believe it was her destiny for her and her children to die anyway? 

Why did Lyanna name their child Aegon which was already the name of Rhaegar and Elia's son?

Could Lyanna ALSO have trusted Rhaegar's vision that Elia and other children were doomed?

▲ major parts of OP extrapolate.  Come back when you've read it.

I didn't make this thread to WETNURSE to the DragonWolf melodrama. 

 

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8 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

1) You obviously didn't even read the OP if you are saying she stepped down or jeopardized her children or allowed herself or her family [et al] shame.............................

2) Dorne is hardly plain sight when your wife's family rules there.

3) We are talking about my OP which you obviously didn't read.

Why are you here?

Could his wife of perhaps 5 years have known him enough to trust him/his vision to bear a third child when she could not give him one? 

Did she believe it was her destiny for her and her children to die anyway? 

Why did Lyanna name their child Aegon which was already the name of Rhaegar and Elia's son?

Could Lyanna ALSO have trusted Rhaegar's vision that Elia and other children were doomed?

▲ major parts of OP extrapolate.  Come back when you've read it.

I didn't make this thread to WETNURSE to the DragonWolf melodrama. 

 

Rude much? And after reading your OP again, I can see why no one is on topic according to you. I don't expect that to change. 

This thread won't last long. 

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