Nerevanin Posted August 29, 2017 Author Share Posted August 29, 2017 15 hours ago, DirewolfDave said: I'm fairly sure they are trying to tell us it was Littlefinger in the show, but it is almost certainly Joffrey in the books. Wasn't it confirmed Joff in the books? or just hinted. Can't remember. 4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: In the show? Who knows. In the books it was made pretty clear that the dagger belonged to Robert, Joffrey took it thinking it wouldn't be missed, and then hired the catspaw. LF had nothing to do with that, but saw a great opportunity to pin yet another crime on the Lannisters. More like "suggested", Tyrion and Jaime think so but they have no evidence to prove it. Also the reason why Joffrey allegedly did it is rather wierd imo. His proposed motivation is the reason why I've always had doubts about Joffrey being the one behind it all. 14 hours ago, Padrino said: This episode confirmed it was Littlefingers dagger and that he lied about losing it to Tyrion. Everybody (aka viewers) already knows this though, so why bother with it? IIRC Jaime told so Catelyn in Season 2. Not that I'm saying it's impossible that it was really only bringing this up. 14 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said: Tyrion. He never lost the dagger to Tyrion, contrary to what he said. It's not even suggested, let alone confirmed. I dare to object and say that the "it was your dagger and that was another of your lies" suggests it. Not completely sure about the show but in the books there is clearly stated that LF lost his dagger to Robert. If there is nothing more to it, then saying "it was your dagger" is kind of wierd because what's the point of saying that a long long time ago LF had a dagger? But if you take it as "you said it was Tyrion's dagger that was to kill Bran but in fact it was yours", the line makes much more sense imo. 14 hours ago, DesertRose said: But Littlefinger wasn't even there at Winterfell. Doesn't mean he couldn't have sent someone with the dagger, but I'm still a little confused about it. Considering that LF is a schemer and he knew that information are power, I think that it is very probable that he had a spy or two among people travelling with Robert to Winterfell and it is also probable that he had a spy in Winterfell, to have info about his beloved Catelyn. Those spies then sent him message about Bran's fall and he took it as a chance to create more tension between the Starks and the Lannisters and so he ordered the spy to kill / to hire someone to kill Bran. It's all only a theory though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 15 hours ago, Nerevanin said: More like "suggested", Tyrion and Jaime think so but they have no evidence to prove it. Also the reason why Joffrey allegedly did it is rather wierd imo. His proposed motivation is the reason why I've always had doubts about Joffrey being the one behind it all. And yet the author has said he's pretty sure we have all the info we need to figure it out. To pin it on anyone other than Joffrey would require more info. Joff is a teenaged boy, a spoiled brat, and an idiot. He does not need sophisticated or well-thought-out motivations for anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerJeremiahLouistark Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I thought Joff in the books did it because in his sick mind he felt it was mercy because he overheard either Cersei or Jaime talking about living as a cripple would suck so bad someone should just kill him and end his suffering. So Joff sent a merc to murder him, partly because he would love nothing more than to orchestrate a murder and partly out of some sick idea of telling himself he is merciful, like telling Sansa he gave Ned a clean death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaguya Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I think it was implied. And I prefer the shows adaption to the books. Joff doing it in the books makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padrino Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 30 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said: I thought Joff in the books did it because in his sick mind he felt it was mercy because he overheard either Cersei or Jaime talking about living as a cripple would suck so bad someone should just kill him and end his suffering. So Joff sent a merc to murder him, partly because he would love nothing more than to orchestrate a murder and partly out of some sick idea of telling himself he is merciful, like telling Sansa he gave Ned a clean death. I haven't read the books, but I believe that Joffrey overhears King Robert saying that it would be a mercy for Bran to die, and it's implied that Joffrey sends the assassin. The show never hints at Joffrey being involved though, and the only time that any character expresses that sort of sentiment (Cersei), Joffrey is not present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 On the Show, yes. LF sent the assasin. On the Books, it was Joffrey. By the way, Joffrey doing it always seemed a bit too...far fetched IMO. I actually prefer this explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryN'TheStargaryens Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 21 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: In the show? Who knows. In the books it was made pretty clear that the dagger belonged to Robert, Joffrey took it thinking it wouldn't be missed, and then hired the catspaw. LF had nothing to do with that, but saw a great opportunity to pin yet another crime on the Lannisters. I do not recall any of this. Joffrey? I read it so long ago...I always thought it was LF in the books. I must have confused it with the show. The show is ruining the story for me. FINISH THE BOOKS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoo Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 No. Jamie admitted to "making it worse" to Cersei. Jamie sent the assasin. LF had nothing to do with. LF admitted to Cat that the knife belonged to the Lannisters, which it did, and Varys jabbed him if the word got out LF was "pinning" Lannisters against the Starks it would be bad for him. This was during one of their ceremonial verbal jabs. Far from it that he was pinning the fight, he was helping with info they seeked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurid Jester Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 17 hours ago, Nerevanin said: Also the reason why Joffrey allegedly did it is rather wierd imo. His proposed motivation is the reason why I've always had doubts about Joffrey being the one behind it all. His motivation being that he worshipped Robert and overheard him suggest it would be a mercy for Bran to die? Seems reasonable to me. Besides, we found out he was planning all kinds of murders behind the scenes. Well... by all kinds I mean trying to kill Tyrion, but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortspear Rick Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Joffrey sent the catspaw with the dagger as has been stated earlier in this thread. It's spelled out in the books but a detail that's left out of the show. The dagger is simply a plot device. Littlefinger lies about its ownership to start a bunch of shit between the Starks and Lannisters, which is reason enough to show what a slimy manipulative liar he is but there's just no way for LF to have been in this assassination plot. Even if we stick with show logic that ravens can fly at mach 5 (just throwing a ludicrous number out there), a raven isn't carrying that dagger from King's Landing and an assassin isn't traveling to Winterfell in the few days between the accident and the attempt on Bran's life. It would have to have come from someone already at Winterfell. In the end, its nothing but a subplot whose actions are necessary for the story to progress but not important enough to actually flesh out and present definitive details. What matters isn't who sent the catspaw but who used the animosity generated by it to stir the pot amongst great houses. It fingers LF (pun intended) as not only behind the deaths of Jon and Lysa Arryn but as a catalyst behind the entire War of the Five Kings, and that's what really matters and why no one bats an eye at his sham trial and execution. Good riddance I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyMormont Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 On 28/8/2017 at 3:06 PM, DesertRose said: But Littlefinger wasn't even there at Winterfell. Doesn't mean he couldn't have sent someone with the dagger, but I'm still a little confused about it. He wasn't there, but in the books at least, he undoubtely had some agent (for lack of a better word) hidden among the King's party That is stablished in the books, because the letter that Cat receives from his sister Lissa, does not arrive via raven as in the show, but appears misteriously inside a box that Maester Luwin finds on a table in his chambers/office. So, the person who put it there must have been in the King's entourage, or have entered Winterfell as so, and that person was working for Littlefinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoofu Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Agreed since LF would have nothing to gain with Bran murder attempt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaguya Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Hoo said: No. Jamie admitted to "making it worse" to Cersei. Jamie sent the assasin. LF had nothing to do with. LF admitted to Cat that the knife belonged to the Lannisters, which it did, and Varys jabbed him if the word got out LF was "pinning" Lannisters against the Starks it would be bad for him. This was during one of their ceremonial verbal jabs. Far from it that he was pinning the fight, he was helping with info they seeked. Elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 2 hours ago, HarryN'TheStargaryens said: I do not recall any of this. Joffrey? I read it so long ago...I always thought it was LF in the books. I must have confused it with the show. The show is ruining the story for me. FINISH THE BOOKS! LF's only involvement was lying to Cat and saying the dagger belonged to Tyrion. If there's one thing Baelish knows how to do, it's take advantage of an opportunity. He's not stupid enough to have tried to kill Catelyn's son, besides which he would have to have known weeks in advance that Bran was going to be pushed from a tower. LF is good, but he's not that good. Heck even Varys isn't that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoo Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Kaguya said: Elaborate? In S1 when Jamie and Cersei got back to KL, Cersei scolded him for making it worse now, ep 103 or 104. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 5 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said: I thought Joff in the books did it because in his sick mind he felt it was mercy because he overheard either Cersei or Jaime talking about living as a cripple would suck so bad someone should just kill him and end his suffering. So Joff sent a merc to murder him, partly because he would love nothing more than to orchestrate a murder and partly out of some sick idea of telling himself he is merciful, like telling Sansa he gave Ned a clean death. It was Robert who said it would be more merciful to be dead than a cripple. And, while it's pretty likely that Joffrey did enjoy the idea of planning a murder, and had a sick sense of what mercy means, as you say, Jaime thought his main motivation was proving himself to Robert. Joffrey got very little attention from Robert, and most of what he got was being called a useless tool; he wanted to show that he could do something difficult but necessary, and was twisted enough to think that's how Robert would take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaguya Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Hoo said: In S1 when Jamie and Cersei got back to KL, Cersei scolded him for making it worse now, ep 103 or 104. Didn't she just mean the fact he pushed him, when they could have silenced him in other ways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoo Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 6 minutes ago, Kaguya said: Didn't she just mean the fact he pushed him, when they could have silenced him in other ways? The conversation refers to most recent events, which is murder attempt, not something that happened before. And she would not use "worse." Cersei was okay with Jamie pushing Bran from the tower. Murder attempt made it worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaguya Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Hoo said: The conversation refers to most recent events, which is murder attempt, not something that happened before. And she would not use "worse." Cersei was okay with Jamie pushing Bran from the tower. Murder attempt made it worse. No, go back to the dialogue again. They are clearly referring to the fall 'he said nothing, he remembers nothing' - > he was awake when he was pushed 'What if he woke up and told them what he saw' -> Which is what he saw before being pushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhollo Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 On 29.8.2017 at 11:17 AM, Nerevanin said: Considering that LF is a schemer and he knew that information are power, I think that it is very probable that he had a spy or two among people travelling with Robert to Winterfell and it is also probable that he had a spy in Winterfell, to have info about his beloved Catelyn. Those spies then sent him message about Bran's fall and he took it as a chance to create more tension between the Starks and the Lannisters and so he ordered the spy to kill / to hire someone to kill Bran. It's all only a theory though. And send his valyrian steel dagger all the way from KL to WF to be used in the crime? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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