Snormund

Can we talk about Jon?

310 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

This is the 3rd and final time I attempt making a thread discussing what happened to his character. I believe this is well worth a thread. 

 

Does it not bother anyone else the way Jon bent the knee to Daenerys after making a big deal out of his loyalty and duty to keeping the North independent? Especially considering she treated him rather shabbily all season, to say the least. She has done nothing to earn his undying love and devotion besides being beautiful. This is completely out of character for Jon in my book. He is someone established as one who doesn't make decisions based on his lustful impulses but now he sells out the North because of them? What. I think he acted incredibly foolishly and selfishly and out of character regarding Dany  

 

He seemingly has forgotten about Ghost too. 

 

A question I have: as a Melisandre fan I thought Jon's treatment of Theon (who betrayed his family and killed Ser Rodrik) compared to Mel (who resurrected  him and killed someone he never met, admittedly an innocent child. Theon killed innocent kids too tho) hypocritical and unfair. Does anyone else think this or is it just me?

 

 

I would appreciate others feedback 

Edited by Snormund

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Defending this show leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but Dany did save his group from the wights and even lost a dragon in the process. Jon probably realized the North alone couldn't possibly withstand the White Walkers, so kneeling was the best course of action. It's sorta like how the riverlords bent the knee to Robb after he saved their bacon. 

But the Theon thing was bullshit, I agree. As lily white snowflake as he is, Book!Jon would feed Theon to Ghost in a heartbeat for what he did and he would never in a million years tell him that he's still a Stark and Ned's son. Goes to show how D&D don't understand nuance in that they either make characters saintly good (like Jon and Tyrion) or irredemably evil (like Ellaria).

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1 minute ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

Defending this show leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but Dany did save his group from the wights and even lost a dragon in the process. Jon probably realized the North alone couldn't possibly withstand the White Walkers, so kneeling was the best course of action. It's sorta like how the riverlords bent the knee to Robb after he saved their bacon. 

But the Theon thing was bullshit, I agree. As lily white snowflake as he is, Book!Jon would feed Theon to Ghost in a heartbeat for what he did and he would never in a million years tell him that he's still a Stark and Ned's son. Goes to show how D&D don't understand nuance in that they either make characters saintly good (like Jon and Tyrion) or irredemably evil (like Ellaria).

Dany saved him after refusing to believe him or fly to the wall herself to see what was up in the first place. So she shouldn't have even put him in that situation tbqh. 

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Lockjaw of House Boltagon said:

Defending this show leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but Dany did save his group from the wights and even lost a dragon in the process. Jon probably realized the North alone couldn't possibly withstand the White Walkers, so kneeling was the best course of action. It's sorta like how the riverlords bent the knee to Robb after he saved their bacon. 

If this logic holds shouldn't Dany be asking the allegiance of the true lord of the north: Robert Arryn?

Edited by greensleeves

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37 minutes ago, Snormund said:

Does it not bother anyone else the way Jon bent the knee to Daenerys after making a big deal out of his loyalty and duty to keeping the North independent? Especially considering she treated him rather shabbily all season, to say the least. She has done nothing to earn his undying love and devotion besides being beautiful. This is completely out of character for Jon in my book. He is someone established as one who doesn't make decisions based on his lustful impulses but now he sells out the North because of them? What. I think he acted incredibly foolishly and selfishly and out of character regarding Dany  

I completely agree with this. Jon bending the knee was a major betrayal. 

4 minutes ago, Snormund said:

Dany saved him after refusing to believe him or fly to the wall herself to see what was up in the first place. So she shouldn't have even put him in that situation tbqh. 

*And* they gave the Night King a way to destroy the wall. Don't forget that part. They would have been way, way better off if he'd just said "Thanks for the dragon glass... bye!"

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10 minutes ago, Snormund said:

Dany saved him after refusing to believe him or fly to the wall herself to see what was up in the first place. So she shouldn't have even put him in that situation tbqh. 

 

6 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

If this logic holds shouldn't Dany be asking the allegiance of the true lord of the north: Robert Arryn?

You got me there. This show is sloppy as hell.

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45 minutes ago, Snormund said:

This is the 3rd and final time I attempt making a thread discussing what happened to his character. I believe this is well worth a thread. 

 

Does it not bother anyone else the way Jon bent the knee to Daenerys after making a big deal out of his loyalty and duty to keeping the North independent? Especially considering she treated him rather shabbily all season, to say the least. She has done nothing to earn his undying love and devotion besides being beautiful. This is completely out of character for Jon in my book. He is someone established as one who doesn't make decisions based on his lustful impulses but now he sells out the North because of them? What. I think he acted incredibly foolishly and selfishly and out of character regarding Dany  

 

He seemingly has forgotten about Ghost too. 

 

A question I have: as a Melisandre fan I thought Jon's treatment of Theon (who betrayed his family and killed Ser Rodrik) compared to Mel (who resurrected  him and killed someone he never met, admittedly an innocent child. Theon killed innocent kids too tho) hypocritical and unfair. Does anyone else think this or is it just me?

 

 

I would appreciate others feedback 

Everyone forgets about Ghost. 

But he did meet Shireen.

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Everyone forgets about Ghost. 

But he did meet Shireen.

I guess he did whoops. Still comes off as ungrateful to Mel if he's willing to forgive theon to a degree 

 

 

it also was really stupid to banish someone who can make sure he doesn't stay dead. 

Edited by Snormund

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I tried my best but I can't understand why Jon is considered a good leader, when he screws up all the task given to him. He had good intentions, true, but all his decisions are impulsive.

According to show logic, Jon should be stabbed again, this time by the Northern lords, b/c/ of his decisions.

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1 minute ago, Snormund said:

I guess he did whoops. Still comes off as ungrateful to Mel if he's willing to forgive theon to a degree 

Theon had also helped to get Sansa away from the Boltons and had gone through horrific torture, which include getting emasculated. Don't know what Melisandre's gone through.

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Just now, Angel Eyes said:

Theon had also helped to get Sansa away from the Boltons and had gone through horrific torture, which include getting emasculated. Don't know what Melisandre's gone through.

Melisandre is the reason Jon's alive. 

 

She was was born a slave so she's been through a lot too. 

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1 minute ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I tried my best but I can't understand why Jon is considered a good leader, when he screws up all the task given to him. He had good intentions, true, but all his decisions are impulsive.

According to show logic, Jon should be stabbed again, this time by the Northern lords, b/c/ of his decisions.

Because he's all they've got and the Northern lords are self interested. I guess "the North forgets", it forgets Ned's execution, the Red Wedding and the traumatic marriage of Sansa to Ramsay Bolton, to give a few examples. Surprised no one really tried to help her through that, with the exception of the old flayed maid.

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48 minutes ago, Snormund said:

This is the 3rd and final time I attempt making a thread discussing what happened to his character. I believe this is well worth a thread. 

 

Does it not bother anyone else the way Jon bent the knee to Daenerys after making a big deal out of his loyalty and duty to keeping the North independent? Especially considering she treated him rather shabbily all season, to say the least. She has done nothing to earn his undying love and devotion besides being beautiful. This is completely out of character for Jon in my book. He is someone established as one who doesn't make decisions based on his lustful impulses but now he sells out the North because of them? What. I think he acted incredibly foolishly and selfishly and out of character regarding Dany  

 

He seemingly has forgotten about Ghost too. 

 

A question I have: as a Melisandre fan I thought Jon's treatment of Theon (who betrayed his family and killed Ser Rodrik) compared to Mel (who resurrected  him and killed someone he never met, admittedly an innocent child. Theon killed innocent kids too tho) hypocritical and unfair. Does anyone else think this or is it just me?

 

 

I would appreciate others feedback 

The only way I can justify him kneeling is because of the mention of Torren the Stark that kneeled (I think that was his name), except in reverse.  He knelt after witnessing the Targaryans killing off everyone.  Jon has witnessed the NK killing off everyone and he sees Dany's help as only being achieved by kneeling.  But again, it doesn't make sense that after Stanis saved his bacon he was high and mighty and didn't kneel in order to take back WF and reunite the North.  But then again his character is all over the place, so I just hold to this to put some logic in everything he says.  I honestly would have preferred the finale to this episode being Jon/Dany fly to WF and the show of power and a quick argument/dialogue (basically how every KitN has been made so far) leads to a decision to kneel. 

 

Also, with you on the whole Theon thing.  Didn't really make a lot of sense but I think that was more to keep Davos at his side. Whereas Theon has already been destroyed and basically everyone pities the guy.

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Posted (edited)

It's not popular opinion, but I feel Jon's character was ruined when he walked away from the Watch. Killing him was dumb, bringing him back was even dumber, but leaving the Watch ruined him.

Jon begins as a guy very obsessed with who he is, and eager to be someone great. At the wall he learns humility and the importance of putting responsibility before  self-satisfaction in a series of increasing tests. What is important is how he lives. This development dead ends when he is (narratively) prematurely made Lord Commander. That should have been the destination of his character development, instead it was a dead end.

Leaving the wall completely reverses his growth. It turns into a journey of what he accomplishes and who he is again:Stark, King in the North, Targaryian, Prince that Was Promised.

It should have been the opposite. The lesson should have been that those things don't truly matter. He doesn't need to be the hero to be the hero.

Ultimately, it shows that the writers have the same shallow misunderstanding of what makes a man great that Jon started out with and originally grew out of!

Edited by iprayiam

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9 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

<snip>

Great post!

Jon's death and abandoning the NW were never fully explained.

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4 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

Jon begins as a guy very obsessed with who he is, and eager to be someone great. At the wall he learns humility and the importance of putting responsibility before  self-satisfaction. What is important is how he lives. This development dead ends when he is prematurely made Lord Commander. That should have been the destination of his character development, instead it was a dead end.

Leaving the wall, completely reverses his growth. It turns into a journey of what he accomplishes and who he is again (identity and greatness): King in the North, Targaryian, Prince that Was Promised.

I do think there's every chance that Jon will end up rejecting his Targaryen heritage. It's also possible that he'll abdicate the northern throne.

This would make for a good continuation of the journey you're describing. The final phase could consist of him being offered all the titles in the world but rejecting them to live the way he thinks is right. 

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42 minutes ago, Snormund said:

Does it not bother anyone else the way Jon bent the knee to Daenerys after making a big deal out of his loyalty and duty to keeping the North independent? Especially considering she treated him rather shabbily all season, to say the least. She has done nothing to earn his undying love and devotion besides being beautiful. This is completely out of character for Jon in my book. He is someone established as one who doesn't make decisions based on his lustful impulses but now he sells out the North because of them? What. I think he acted incredibly foolishly and selfishly and out of character regarding Dany  

 

He seemingly has forgotten about Ghost too. 

 

A question I have: as a Melisandre fan I thought Jon's treatment of Theon (who betrayed his family and killed Ser Rodrik) compared to Mel (who resurrected  him and killed someone he never met, admittedly an innocent child. Theon killed innocent kids too tho) hypocritical and unfair. Does anyone else think this or is it just me?

 

 

I would appreciate others feedback 

I haven't much of an issue with Jon and Dany falling for each other... Just how its been done and how Jon's character has been basically butchered. First, it was butchered for the sake of Sansa Character Development... Now, for the sake of his relationship with Dany and to cause friction with his family and bannermen.
I could see if this was Jons first time leading, but it isn't. He was Lord Commander... He was a good leader at the wall... maybe not for those that wanted to keep the wildling out, but he was able to see beyond simple cultural hatred. He knew what would happen if the others killed the other wildlings. Now you telling me he doesn't remember to talk to his people he serves about Bending the knee??? This isn't like the King who Knelt... Dany hasn't threatened him with her dragons. Since I love you I decide to give my people to you without consulting them? He just decides to. Thats not even remotely close to what a character like Jon would do just cause she'd pretty.

The part about Melanie (melisandre) is so on point. This is because Jon hasn't had any Character Development since the books ended with his death. The have no clue what Book jon would do with Melisandre. Jon on the show didn't even know Davos like that to feel compelled to banish the woman who resurrected him. Didn't he watch her burn people? Didn't Davos watch her burn people? Jon suffered the Wildling for the sake of the great War, why would he not suffer Melisandre? And im talking about TV Jon. Theon got the whole of Winterfell skinned but He forgives him.... At least be consistant.

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44 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

If this logic holds shouldn't Dany be asking the allegiance of the true lord of the north: Robert Arryn.

Or Bran, since Rob's letter doesn't exist in this world. (Jon doesn't know Bran decided to not be lord of winterfell as he's not been to winterfell in months lol) maybe im wrong.

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31 minutes ago, Sir Dingleberry said:

The only way I can justify him kneeling is because of the mention of Torren the Stark that kneeled (I think that was his name), except in reverse.  He knelt after witnessing the Targaryans killing off everyone.  Jon has witnessed the NK killing off everyone and he sees Dany's help as only being achieved by kneeling.  But again, it doesn't make sense that after Stanis saved his bacon he was high and mighty and didn't kneel in order to take back WF and reunite the North.  But then again his character is all over the place, so I just hold to this to put some logic in everything he says.  I honestly would have preferred the finale to this episode being Jon/Dany fly to WF and the show of power and a quick argument/dialogue (basically how every KitN has been made so far) leads to a decision to kneel. 

 

Also, with you on the whole Theon thing.  Didn't really make a lot of sense but I think that was more to keep Davos at his side. Whereas Theon has already been destroyed and basically everyone pities the guy.

Only thing is, he already had her help. She chose to kill the NK. She didn't implore Jon to end the knee so that she could.
 

And yes too the Stannis bit. Stannis was going to legitimatize him but, nope... His vows.

 

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24 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

It's not popular opinion, but I feel Jon's character was ruined when he walked away from the Watch. Killing him was dumb, bringing him back was even dumber, but leaving the Watch ruined him.

Jon begins as a guy very obsessed with who he is, and eager to be someone great. At the wall he learns humility and the importance of putting responsibility before  self-satisfaction in a series of increasing tests. What is important is how he lives. This development dead ends when he is (narratively) prematurely made Lord Commander. That should have been the destination of his character development, instead it was a dead end.

Leaving the wall, completely reverses his growth. It turns into a journey of what he accomplishes and who he is again: King in the North, Targaryian, Prince that Was Promised.

It should have been the opposite. The lesson should have been that those things don't truly matter. He doesn't need to be the hero to be the hero.

Ultimately, it shows that the writers have the same shallow misunderstanding of what makes a man great that Jon started out with and originally grew out of!

I pretty much agree. 

Also, Jon leaving his NW vows just because a technical loophole is terribly out of character.  The writers still had the cheek to make him quote his vows last episode, though.

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