Can we talk about Jon?

[Maid So Fair]

7 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

By the time she gets there, the dead will be through the wall and killing everyone. I don't expect much Northern nationalism at that juncture.

Ironically, the main reason for that is the fact that in the show both her and Jon abandoned the Wall and the North to their own devices and instead of staying at Eastwatch to face the NK - who they knew was within a running distance- they buggered off to KL to chat to Cersei as if time wasn't of the essence. Frankly, neither of them deserves the North's loyalty at this point.

[Super Mario]

3 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

Ironically, the main reason for that is the fact that in the show both her and Jon abandoned the Wall and the North to their own devices and instead of staying at Eastwatch to face the NK - who they knew was within a running distance- they buggered off to KL to chat to Cersei as if time wasn't of the essence. Frankly, neither of them deserves the North's loyalty at this point.

To be fair, they didn't know the Night King had a resurrected dragon. The Wall had held the Army of the Dead back for 1000's of years, they clearly expected it would hold for longer than 10 minutes this time around

[Hajk1984]

4 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

Ironically, the main reason for that is the fact that in the show both her and Jon abandoned the Wall and the North to their own devices and instead of staying at Eastwatch to face the NK - who they knew was within a running distance- they buggered off to KL to chat to Cersei as if time wasn't of the essence. Frankly, neither of them deserves the North's loyalty at this point.

Well Jon needs Daenerys to commit. He does not have the resources to put up a competent defense. That's been his whole arc this season. Daenerys is extremely reluctant to commit unless Cersei can be made to stand down while she's up in the North. At this juncture they know the NK is close but they don't know how soon he'll manage to breach the wall. The Ice Viserion was unexpected and probably accelerated things more than Jon expected.

Anyhow, Jon was not conscious at Eastwatch and Daenerys only had 2 dragons there. Formidable, but vulnerable.

[Einheri]

1 hour ago, Super Mario said:

To be fair, they didn't know the Night King had a resurrected dragon. The Wall had held the Army of the Dead back for 1000's of years, they clearly expected it would hold for longer than 10 minutes this time around

Jon seemed pretty adamant about heading back to the North asap when he found out that the AotD had been spotted near EW, and Varys' suggestion that they might not be able to get past the Wall because "it has kept them out for 1000s of years" wasn't enough to change his mind on this. So, Jon, at least, seems to be of the belief that the Wall itself might not be enough to stop them, and with the AotD outside EW, it's a bit strange that he decides to take a detour to KL (wouldn't it be sufficient if Davos was there representing him?) instead of returning to WF to organize the defense of the his country.

[Maid So Fair]

1 hour ago, Super Mario said:

To be fair, they didn't know the Night King had a resurrected dragon. The Wall had held the Army of the Dead back for 1000's of years, they clearly expected it would hold for longer than 10 minutes this time around

 

17 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Well Jon needs Daenerys to commit. He does not have the resources to put up a competent defense. That's been his whole arc this season. Daenerys is extremely reluctant to commit unless Cersei can be made to stand down while she's up in the North. At this juncture they know the NK is close but they don't know how soon he'll manage to breach the wall. The Ice Viserion was unexpected and probably accelerated things more than Jon expected.

Anyhow, Jon was not conscious at Eastwatch and Daenerys only had 2 dragons there. Formidable, but vulnerable.

If Jon believes that the Wall can hold the NK and his 100k zombie army then his action this entire season make absolutely no sense. Why bother manning the Wall if its mere existence is enough to stop the AoD? Why bother trying to win over Dany as an ally or not attacking Cersei to get revenge for Robb and Ned? Sansa even talks about how Cersei is the main threat and he shoots her down. He clearly believed, well pre-dragon that the Wall couldn't stop the NK.

The NK at this point is mere hours away from Eastwatch. Even if this was just an ordinary army the NW at Castle Black barely managed to hold off Mance for a few days. He knows Eastwatch is understaffed and it takes *weeks* (at least) to reach KL by ship and get back. The only reasonable expectation is that the Eastwatch is toast at this point.

[ramla]

18 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Aye, they did a good job of portraying the northern lords as windmills. Sansa doing an "OK" job as Lady of Winterfell was enough for them to be impressed by her. Evidently the northern lords are not very rigid in their opinions on who should rule them, but are instead easily swayed.
Ironically, this fact can actually be to Daenerys advantage.

You do have a point here. lol The show doesn't really portray the north as staunch. cthu

13 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

I don't understand if this is really so ambiguous. Jon needs to drag Dany into this war as soon as possible. She is extremely reluctant to jump into it. Her single statement (vaguely worded as to specifics) that they'll destroy the NK together is not sufficient. Not for what Jon needs. Not for how immediate the danger is. This is made quite claer in 7x07 in the Dragon Pit scene. Daenerys STILL has cold feet about going North unless Cersei agrees to a truce first. When Jon asks her what now? She says that she cannot ignore what she saw north of the wall, but that she cannot pretend that Cersei wouldn't take back half the country if she did. She doesn't give him an unqualified "one way or he other, the threat from the dead must be met first." The facts are

1. Jon needs to bring Daenerys into this war by any (honest, coz he's clearly not willing to lie) means, whether the Northern lords are intelligent enough to realize it or not. They don't have her resources.

2. Daenerys is exceedingly reluctant to drop her mission of conquest, irrespective of what she said in one vulnerable moment. Her statements before and after both show this.

And I'm in the camp that thinks that personally she is in love with Jon at this point. But she is still very wishy washy about committing herself to that war instead of continuing the feud with Cersei. Handing her the North helps to push her more into it (yet she is still conflicted about leaving the rest to Cersei).

A few things... The relationship between Jon and Dany was vague up to boatsex. It was not really shown why they ended up having feeling for each other. They didn't have much screentime together and we the audience weren't shown the developement/progression of thier relationship. just the scene on the stairs... the cave scene... The Dragon scene. But none of them really showed thier budding love in a realistic way ( i know dragons and zombies yada yada). Anyways... I have no doubt she is in love with him and he with her... It just wasn't written well.

Jon still didn't need to bend the knee. Its not really a necessity at all. It was put forth by Dany because she see's herself as the Queen of Westeros, and Jon as  pretender. Thats where it all stemmed from which wasn't based in love or fondness... They could have sought a partnership which would mean a more mutual respect or fondness! This is what Jon seemed to be wanting the whole time!? He didn't go to Dragonstone to kneel. He went for dragon glass and a possible partnership.

In the cave after what seemed to Dany to be a slight turning point she offered her help, if he kneeled again. This was meant to convey her not fully trusting or believing him... this had nothing to do with jon.  Like she said she needed to see that it was real. Problem is, kneeling wasn't a viable or logical option for Jon. it was a mechanism put in place to show Dany trying to assert her dominance over Jon... and then later to show her disbelief. Jon kneeling is now a mechanism of discord. An issue to deal with when he returns north. There's no logic behind it. She saw the reality and lost her dragon and then basically sought revenge and decided to work with Jon to destroy the NK. He had what he wanted, almost died to get it. they are partners now and... Jon out of the blue kneels. She's like no... are you certain what about your people?... yeah jon what about them? Jon on the other end of the spectrum was right not to kneel. None of this Kneeling arch was about Jon character development, which seems to have disappeared for the most part since he rose from the dead... Which is curious when a rebirth of sorts often brings huge changes in a character.

[ramla]

3 hours ago, Super Mario said:

To be fair, they didn't know the Night King had a resurrected dragon. The Wall had held the Army of the Dead back for 1000's of years, they clearly expected it would hold for longer than 10 minutes this time around

Not really sure, they LOGICALLY didn't suspect. But They did fight a weight bear. They did see walking dead horses. Jon has seen how he can erect the dead without much effort. 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

1 hour ago, Maid So Fair said:

 

If Jon believes that the Wall can hold the NK and his 100k zombie army then his action this entire season make absolutely no sense. Why bother manning the Wall if its mere existence is enough to stop the AoD? Why bother trying to win over Dany as an ally or not attacking Cersei to get revenge for Robb and Ned? Sansa even talks about how Cersei is the main threat and he shoots her down. He clearly believed, well pre-dragon that the Wall couldn't stop the NK.

The NK at this point is mere hours away from Eastwatch. Even if this was just an ordinary army the NW at Castle Black barely managed to hold off Mance for a few days. He knows Eastwatch is understaffed and it takes *weeks* (at least) to reach KL by ship and get back. The only reasonable expectation is that the Eastwatch is toast at this point.

Jon was the only person in the North pushing to built up their armies. He does not believe the wall would stand. Other than the dragon dying. Jon got dragonglass, a new powerful ally and he showed everyone in leadership proof that the there is a threat coming for all of them. Yea he needed to have his butt saved by his uncle and his girl/aunt but he got a lot of what he wanted in the beginning of the season. He thinks they might have a chance now but they dont know about the new wight dragon coming their way. 

[jcmontea]

Its true. He did not need to kneel. She gave him what he wanted and he kneeled anyways. 

His kneeled because he belived in her and because he felt that she was worthy of her being his Queen. 

In terms of how this impacted his character development its not clear this represents some shift in his character or development in it versus a development in his relationship with Daenerys. 

[Einheri]

Jon gave us a solid reason for why he couldn't bend the knee in the cave scene, namely that his people wouldn't accept a southern ruler after everything they'd been through. As an elected monarch without much of a powerbase of his own, Jon has to take greater caution than most when it comes to crossing his own bannermen lest they simply replace him with a new monarch (and this nearly happens when several of the lords speak out in favor of replacing him with Sansa).

But of course it turns out that show Jon is still an idiot, and he hands over his kingdom to Dany, not because it was necessary to save his people (at that point she had already agreed to help him), but because he's turned into a Dany fanboy who thinks that everyone else will eventually come to see her as as awesome as he does. But this is not foregone conclusion, so Jon is pretty much selling the hide before he has even caught the bear. And with the growing romance between Jon and Dany becoming apparent to more and more people, it could just as easily come across as if Jon is letting the wrong head influence his decisions.

Sadly, however, I very much doubt that Jon will have to face the backlash from his decision as the dead will soon fall upon castle after castle, and people will have more important things to worry about, but I'll still be bitter about it. Especially since the dead might not even have been able to get past the Wall if Jon and Dany hadn't provided him with a dragon, and them saving Westeros after that is like if two firefighter set fire to my house and then showed up half an hour later to put it out...

[jcmontea]

8 minutes ago, Einheri said:

Jon gave us a solid reason for why he couldn't bend the knee in the cave scene, namely that his people wouldn't accept a southern ruler after everything they'd been through. As an elected monarch without much of a powerbase of his own, Jon has to take greater caution than most when it comes to crossing his own bannermen lest they simply replace him with a new monarch (and this nearly happens when several of the lords speak out in favor of replacing him with Sansa).

But of course it turns out that show Jon is still an idiot, and he hands over his kingdom to Dany, not because it was necessary to save his people (at that point she had already agreed to help him), but because he's turned into a Dany fanboy who thinks that everyone else will eventually come to see her as as awesome as he does. But this is not foregone conclusion, so Jon is pretty much selling the hide before he has even caught the bear. And with the growing romance between Jon and Dany becoming apparent to more and more people, it could just as easily come across as if Jon is letting the wrong head influence his decisions.

Sadly, however, I very much doubt that Jon will have to face the backlash from his decision as the dead will soon fall upon castle after castle, and people will have more important things to worry about, but I'll still be bitter about it. Especially since the dead might not even have been able to get past the Wall if Jon and Dany hadn't provided him with a dragon, and them saving Westeros after that is like if two firefighter set fire to my house and then showed up half an hour later to put it out...

There won't be any backlash. Jon is right. They will see her for what she is. 

The show has gone to great lengths to actually show that point to be an accurate statement. To know Dany, is to want to follow her. 

[Einheri]

10 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

There won't be any backlash. Jon is right. They will see her for what she is. 

The show has gone to great lengths to actually show that point to be an accurate statement. To know Dany, is to want to follow her. 

The fact that Dany is such a devise character on this board proves otherwise IMO.

I for one would certainly not follow show Dany if I were Westerosi, at least not until she could provide some detailed information on what exactly 'breaking the wheel' entails, and how she plans on accomplishing this goal. Her tendency towards burning people alive rather than simply imprisoning them because "hurr durr I don't like chains" is also a bit worrisome, I admit.

[Tagganaro]

3 hours ago, Einheri said:

Jon seemed pretty adamant about heading back to the North asap when he found out that the AotD had been spotted near EW, and Varys' suggestion that they might not be able to get past the Wall because "it has kept them out for 1000s of years" wasn't enough to change his mind on this. So, Jon, at least, seems to be of the belief that the Wall itself might not be enough to stop them, and with the AotD outside EW, it's a bit strange that he decides to take a detour to KL (wouldn't it be sufficient if Davos was there representing him?) instead of returning to WF to organize the defense of the his country.

All these issues are a consequence of D & D working backwards.  They have said as much in interviews- they wanted to end the season with the Night King blowing down the Wall with a dragon.  This is why episode 6 made no sense- they couldn't figure out the plot mechanics to get Dany and her dragons North of the Wall in a believable way.  The "detour to KL" was actually the logical consequence of the absurdity of the wight hunt- they had to justify it somehow with this summit at the dragon pit.  

I've said this in other threads, but I really do wonder if this "Wight Viserion" is a book plot-point or a show-created one.  The show is clearly reaping the rewards of not laying groundwork for the two magical horns from the books (Joramun and Dragonbinder) and I don't think wanted to introduce these out of nowhere this year.

19 minutes ago, Einheri said:

Jon gave us a solid reason for why he couldn't bend the knee in the cave scene, namely that his people wouldn't accept a southern ruler after everything they'd been through. As an elected monarch without much of a powerbase of his own, Jon has to take greater caution than most when it comes to crossing his own bannermen lest they simply replace him with a new monarch (and this nearly happens when several of the lords speak out in favor of replacing him with Sansa).

But of course it turns out that show Jon is still an idiot, and he hands over his kingdom to Dany, not because it was necessary to save his people (at that point she had already agreed to help him), but because he's turned into a Dany fanboy who thinks that everyone else will eventually come to see her as as awesome as he does. But this is not foregone conclusion, so Jon is pretty much selling the hide before he has even caught the bear. And with the growing romance between Jon and Dany becoming apparent to more and more people, it could just as easily come across as if Jon is letting the wrong head influence his decisions.

Sadly, however, I very much doubt that Jon will have to face the backlash from his decision as the dead will soon fall upon castle after castle, and people will have more important things to worry about, but I'll still be bitter about it. Especially since the dead might not even have been able to get past the Wall if Jon and Dany hadn't provided him with a dragon, and them saving Westeros after that is like if two firefighter set fire to my house and then showed up half an hour later to put it out...

Everything you said is fair, but again, we need to see how it plays out.  Personally, I think Jon bending the knee makes good sense within the context of the story they told this year, and could continue to tell next year.  And that story is one of both Jon and Dany being emotionally compromised due to their romantic feelings for each other.  I think they've laid some groundwork for this that could bear fruit and make this story make sense with legitimate consequences.  I look specifically to LF's aside to Sansa implying Dany is using her beauty to win over Jon through marriage and Tyrion's look during the boatsex scene- this really is a through-line from the Cave scene onwards this entire season of both Dany and Jon falling for each other and not being able to make good decisions because of it.  

[jcmontea]

7 minutes ago, Einheri said:

The fact that Dany is such a devise character on this board proves otherwise IMO.

I for one would certainly not follow show Dany if I were Westerosi, at least not until she could provide some detailed information on what exactly 'breaking the wheel' entails, and how she plans on accomplishing this goal. Her tendency towards burning people alive rather than simply imprisoning them because "hurr durr I don't like chains" is also a bit worrisome, I admit.

I can understand your view. 

I just don't think we have seen anyone in universe get to know her and not want to follow her. The only people who don't follow her are literally the worst people. 

Two of the great protagonists of the story Jon and Tyrion have come into contact with her and become Dany diehards. It seems that is just how the show is written.

[MinscS2]

1 hour ago, Einheri said:

The fact that Dany is such a devise character on this board proves otherwise IMO.

Not really. You will find a lot of posters on this board who loves Cersei and/or the Nightking and want either of them to win in the end.

The number of posters on this forum is a piss in Mississippi when considering how many viewers GoT has.
I'd be willing to bet money on that most viewers actually like or are indifferent to Daenerys. The people who dislike her are a minority.

[Maid So Fair]

2 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Jon was the only person in the North pushing to built up their armies. He does not believe the wall would stand. Other than the dragon dying. Jon got dragonglass, a new powerful ally and he showed everyone in leadership proof that the there is a threat coming for all of them. Yea he needed to have his butt saved by his uncle and his girl/aunt but he got a lot of what he wanted in the beginning of the season. He thinks they might have a chance now but they dont know about the new wight dragon coming their way. 

None of this explains why he didn't stay at the Wall to defend it. 

[ramla]

1 hour ago, Einheri said:

Jon gave us a solid reason for why he couldn't bend the knee in the cave scene, namely that his people wouldn't accept a southern ruler after everything they'd been through. As an elected monarch without much of a powerbase of his own, Jon has to take greater caution than most when it comes to crossing his own bannermen lest they simply replace him with a new monarch (and this nearly happens when several of the lords speak out in favor of replacing him with Sansa).

But of course it turns out that show Jon is still an idiot, and he hands over his kingdom to Dany, not because it was necessary to save his people (at that point she had already agreed to help him), but because he's turned into a Dany fanboy who thinks that everyone else will eventually come to see her as as awesome as he does. But this is not foregone conclusion, so Jon is pretty much selling the hide before he has even caught the bear. And with the growing romance between Jon and Dany becoming apparent to more and more people, it could just as easily come across as if Jon is letting the wrong head influence his decisions.

Sadly, however, I very much doubt that Jon will have to face the backlash from his decision as the dead will soon fall upon castle after castle, and people will have more important things to worry about, but I'll still be bitter about it. Especially since the dead might not even have been able to get past the Wall if Jon and Dany hadn't provided him with a dragon, and them saving Westeros after that is like if two firefighter set fire to my house and then showed up half an hour later to put it out...

"Applause"! Excellently put!

[ramla]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

I've said this in other threads, but I really do wonder if this "Wight Viserion" is a book plot-point or a show-created one.  The show is clearly reaping the rewards of not laying groundwork for the two magical horns from the books (Joramun and Dragonbinder) and I don't think wanted to introduce these out of nowhere this year.

 

I don't think "wight Viserion" is something that will happen in the books. At least not b4 they actually do battle and a dragon is killed. I think the Others have a dragon already. In the Show dragons seem to be only a dany thing, but in the books there are rumors of other dragons and creature of note. Giant Ice Spiders and Bears and we don't know what else. "Dead things in the woods... Dead things in the Water..."

[Megorova]

On 05.09.2017 at 6:16 PM, Sir Dingleberry said:

I'm aware of all that.  I'm just speaking in the sense of his kneeling to Dany.  He did because he thought it was the most practical way (which is confusing b/c he already had her support without kneeling)

Actually the part that is confusing for you, is also one of the reasons why he kneeled. When they met, she demanded from him to kneel, and practically took him hostage, until he will either decisively and for good will decline to submit (and most likely will be roasted afterward), or he will do what she asked. But she gave him dragonglass, even before he made any decisions or promises. Her gift was a gest of goodwill, even though she wasn't getting anything in return for it. So when she agreed to fight with him against NK, he also made a gest of goodwill, by naming Dany his Queen.

Quote

At the time Stannis saved him, staying in the NW wasn't the most practical way to save the North.  The Noth was divided and he knew the best way to defeat the WWs (at the time) was to unite the North.  I understand the oath.  All I'm saying is if were being practical, the best time to kneel for Jon was to Stannis and not to dany in my opinion. 

After they spend more time, getting to know each other, Jon realised that she's a good person, and that he can trust her, and he can rely on her. While Stannis was a bad person, add to that cruel, saddist, and pyromaniac that burned living people. Dany also killed people with fire, but it was during battle. Or if not during battle, she gave them choice, either no kneel, or die. You can argue that Stannis did the same to Mance Reider, i.e. gave him the same choice, but their situations are totally different.

Stannis' claims over Iron Throne, however substantiated, don't give him any right to command wildlings, cause they are not citizens of Seven Kingdoms. While Randill Tarly was a subordinate of Tyrells. And Olena Tyrell pledged Reach to Dany. So Dany had a legal right to demand submission from Tarlys.

As a person Dany is better than Stannis.

On 05.09.2017 at 6:28 PM, ramla said:

Doesn't Celibacy mean abstaining from sex? I don't think they would take his head for it, but it is a rule he broke.

"Celibacy is the state of voluntarily being unmarried, sexually abstinent, or both."

I.e. it's either one of that or both.

In NW's oath Brothers pledge "I shall take no wife...father no children." Based on the fact that Lord Commander haven't punnished those Brothers that frequented Mole's Town, seems that in their understanding this part of oath means that Brothers of NW won't have families. Which also means that they can have sex, and even can have children (accidental), but they won't raise those children, won't be fathers to them.

Also even though sexual activity isn't forbidden, but it is frown upon by seniors of NW. Because if Brothers of NW won't be sexually abstinent, they can't be fully dedicated to causes of NW, and there will always remain temptation, that one day for this woman, they can decide to desert NW. So even though Lord Commander, and NW's maester, and many others do know about some Brothers occasionally going to have some fun, they overlook it, furthermore they keep quiet about this activities, not to stir others.

On 05.09.2017 at 6:28 PM, ramla said:

Jon, intended to ride for Winterfell to make Ramsey answer for what was said in the Pink letter. This alone would be seen as a broken Oath because the NW takes no part in the squabbled of the 7 kingdoms. However, he could make a case that Ramsey threatened the watch and those under his protection which would validate his decision to ride to Winterfell.

Jon was aware about fate of Winterfell after Ned's execution and Robb's death. So he knew that Starks' enemies seized Winterfell. Though he wasn't planning to go there. Until he received that letter. So his decision to fight for Winterfell wasn't dictated by his personal interests, he did it for Night's Watch sake. As Lord Commander he was obliged to answer to Ramsay's challenge/provocation.

On 05.09.2017 at 7:15 PM, Zapho said:

Hm, are you saying the NK always had the ability to use the gates or that him touching Bran or him killing the CotF really brought the barriers down and now he can use them?

I think that wights were able to go thru gates even before Bran's mark, or 3ER's death, but Night's King and White Walkers couldn't.

Wights are reanimated human corpses, thus they are less 'alien', less magical than NK or WW. Maybe amount of 'winter magic' present in corpses, isn't high enough to be detected by protection spells infused in the Wall. That's why 'infected' corpses, that were brought thru tunnel in Castle Black, later rose as wights, even though Wall is protected with spells.

Also I think that wights that are controlled by WW, are capable of executing more complicated tasks, while separated wights' abilities are limited to kill kill kill.

Examples:

Spoiler

Two reanimated Brothers tried to kill whoever was close to them. Instead of going to castle's gates, opening them, and inviting other wights for a big party, while all Watchers were still sleeping.

Wight in King's Landing lunged towards Cersei, simply because she was the one in front of him. Instead of attacking Jon or Dany - people that are the bigger threat for NK.

Wights that attacked Bran (when he went into and out of 3ER's cave) were also very simpleminded. Even though they greatly outnumbered their intended victims, they were unable to kill Bran, their main target.

Wights that were chasing Jon and Co, kept going even after ice crumbled under them. As result several hundreds of them went under water. Because they were too stupid to promptly react to changes in their surroundings and stop on time.

During massacre at Hardhome, wights accompanied by NK and WW were more effective. First they attacked the gates, killed everyone that remained on that side (probably also took their weapons), and then broke the gates. Also they went from several directions at once, even jumped off a cliff to attack wildlings from unprotected flank. They managed to kill lots of people. Thousands.

In Beyond the Wall episode when the Hound threw stone at one of the wights, to provoke it into attacking, it didn't reacted. But when second stone hit the ice and didn't break it, that wight immidiately stepped on ice. Also during this attack all wights didn't went at once, instead they dispersed into groups to distribute their weight on ice, and went to attack in circular waves.

Jon was dragging captured wight by rope, with which it's hands were tied. He was attacked by another wight, that cut that rope with sword, and tried to free their captive.

When one of the wights was set on fire, it run towards captured wight and threw itself on top of it, trying to burn it too.

When wights attacked Tormund, they separated him from his group, two of them grabbed his legs and were pulling him under water, others were holding him down, and one more put it's weapon on his neck, they were going to either cut off his head or to strangle him <- coordinated teamwork.

Which means that without being in close proximity to WW, wights are too stupid, and they alone won't be able to destroy 7K.

Also I think that in addition to spells that were infused into the Wall, there was also a protection barrier that streched way beyond physical boundaries of the Wall, deeper into north. Over time that barrier was becoming weaker and weaker, thus northern territory that was under protection from NK, was becoming narrower. Thus WW were able to come closer and closer to the Wall.

Also NK spent years to make enough WW (sons of Craster), and to gather wights into his army. Based on the fact that Mance Reider were aware of NK's threat for many years, and for the last 15 of them he was trying to unite all tribes of wildlings, seems that NK's Undead Army was brought all together only recently.

So it's not only that the barrier was preventing NK from going to this side of the Wall, he also wasn't in any hurry to attack 7K, until he will gather enough forces.

On 05.09.2017 at 7:15 PM, Zapho said:

Jon clearly thought all along that the Wall alone wouldn't stop the AotD, that's the whole reason he's rallying support. Otherwise, doing nothing would be the simplest solution to the problem.

Yes, he did. In S1E8 he saw that wights can get on this side of the Wall, if they will pass thru gates. And in S4E9 he saw that the gates can be openned from the outside. So he realised that they are f*cked.

 

[Megorova]

On 05.09.2017 at 7:15 PM, Zapho said:

Hm, are you saying the NK always had the ability to use the gates

Gates or not, while the Wall is still standing, Night's Watch has big advantage. If the gates were attacked by wights only, Watchers just needed to pour on them oil from the top of the Wall, and then lit it up. One burning arrow will destroy hundreds, or even thousands of attackers.

Though it will take significant amount of time to incapacitate with fire an undead giant. That amount of time will be enough for that giant to open the gates. So yes, if Night's King will invite undead giant as his +1, then they definitely can go thru gates, and arrange a big 'All you can kill'-themed party in Seven Kingdoms.