Casting the Movie Continued

[Lightsnake]

There isn't a reasoning: In the pictures approved by GRRM they are white and in the text, they are described as fair.

[Tysha]

How about Kathy Bates as Mirri Maaz Duur (sp?)?

The Lhazareen live in the Dothraki sea region - I don't think they're supposed to be white!

For Lollys - what about Emma Chambers (if she ate a load of pies...)

And I've had another think about Brienne. This may sound strange at first but bear with me ... how about Billie Piper?

Before you all laugh at me because Billie is such a sexy minx, just look at these pics:

Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

Those aren't doctored, she's not wearing any prosthetics or stuck on spots or anything like that. That's just her with no make-up on looking ... well, a bit rough really. And anyone who had the misfortune to glance at a British tabloid during her marriage to Chris Evans knows there are plenty more where those came from. Billie can be incredibly sexy but she really shouldn't be. It's like she's attractive despite being so damn weird looking! But with the glamour stripped away she can also look rather unattractive.

She's certainly got a wide face, big mouth and big, goofy teeth, but she also has a real sweetness to her and she's incredibly charismatic on screen, which Brienne needs to be. And she can kick arse, too! She's not especially tall, admittedly, but ... can't have everything!

[Maester Yobjascz]

There isn't a reasoning: In the pictures approved by GRRM they are white and in the text, they are described as fair.

Which is why, in the LotR films, and in every other film adaptation of a book, all the actors/actresses match the physical descriptions 100%, and the dialogue in the films are word for word that in the book, right? An adaptation of ASOIAF is *never* going to be a perfect match of the books. Why? Because one is a book, and the other is a film (or TV series).

Unless something changes, you're never going to know what the characters are thinking in their heads during scenes. That necessitates that some lines being given from one character to another, some thoughts turned into spoken words, and other thoughts or narration translated to action. Scenes remembered in the book may become flashbacks, or may be expanded into entirely new scenes not contemplated by GRRM. So long as it is done in the spirit of the books, the characters, and the story, it can be done well... and is oftentimes necessary to give the film the depth that a true translation of the books would sorely lack.

The same goes for character descriptions. Frodo Baggins was *not* a young kid when imagined by Tolkien. He was an older gentleman, and Sam was more his squire than his friend. It was more along the lines of the traditional relationship in the British military between an officer and his sergeant... Master and Servant, Knight and Squire. However, that wouldn't have translated correctly for American audiences, nor would it have conveyed the lack of worldliness that a young Frodo would, and they had an excellent actor in Elijah Wood. So they changed the actor to fit what the *character* needed, and what the *film* needed... and did not stick to the literal description of Frodo in the books.

I am suggesting that the same be done for Arthur Dayne. I agree that Jimmy Smits does not match the Amok rendering of the Sword of Morning. So continually harping on that is useless. Instead, I'm arguing that the film/series would be better off by making this change. You disagree... explain why. My previous post explains my view on this in more detail. You think we'd be better off with a Sword of Morning who looks the same as everyone else, save for violet eyes that *might* be noticed in a short flashback, argue it. You have a better suggestion for the Dayne's, make it.

Until then, stop throwing tantrums and pointing at the text. We know what the text says... it's been pointed out before. Unless you can argue with my other points, knock it off and move on to something constructive.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Tysha-

Emma Chambers isn't a bad thought for Lollys... she's supposed to be fast approaching her mid-30's, and still a maiden. My only possible concern is her age, but I doubt that's much of an issue.

As for Brienne, I still like Charlize Theron... She's relatively tall (~5'10"), she 'uglies' up very well, but she retains her great eyes. She's relatively flat-chested, which is supposed to be the case with Brienne, and I'd imagine that she could bulk up fairly well. Of course, Lightsnake is going to hate me for bringing her up again.

[Tysha]

Maester Yobjascz, I know where you're coming from but ... the thing is, Frodo Baggins was the main character, Arthur and Ashara are bit parts at best who will only appear in flashbacks. There isn't really any justification within the story for so drastically changing how they look.

And yes, I have read your post before you say anything! I'm not sure why you think the Daynes being Hispanic will make them stand out more when actually it will just make them look like the rest of the Dornishmen! We see ethically diverse characters in AGoT with the Dothraki, so it's not like they'd be the only non-pink-skinned people on screen, and when the rest of the Dornishmen show up in ASoS they'd just blend into the background even more. It would negate any uniqueness they may or may not have garnered.

As for them not standing out enough, if they appeared in flashbacks early on in the series, that very fact alone would draw attention to them. Who are these people and why do they warrant these flashbacks when they've been dead for over a decade? And violet eyes can have attention drawn to them very easily - all it takes is a close-up!

As it is, I don't think Smits and Velazquez are that perfect for the roles. Smits is about twenty years too old and Velazquez is a very sexy lady but she's hardly OMG!beautiful. She's no more striking, really, than Tricia Helfer or Rachel Hurd-Wood.

I'd also be wary of having a non-white Ashara when many people think she's Jon's mother. It's one thing for Jon to apparently not look a thing like his mother but for his mother's entire ethnicity to be wiped from his looks? That's a bit of a stretch! And yes, I know Ashara (probably) isn't really Jon's mother but making so instantly unbelievable means that that theory goes out the window straight away.

As for Brienne, I still like Charlize Theron... She's relatively tall (~5'10"), she 'uglies' up very well, but she retains her great eyes. She's relatively flat-chested, which is supposed to be the case with Brienne, and I'd imagine that she could bulk up fairly well. Of course, Lightsnake is going to hate me for bringing her up again.

I'm sorry, but Charlize Theron is not Brienne! The 'uglying up' she did in Monster was very different from the sort of unattractiveness that's needed here. She was very clearly a could-have-been pretty woman who's life had gone down the crapper and taken its toll on her face. That's not Brienne - she's just awkward looking. Also, I think Theron is too emotionally strong and self-assured to be Brienne. Billie could do Brienne's youth and lack of confidence.

And Emma Chambers is only 42 so she can play someone in her 30s. It probably wouldn't be a bad thing for Lollys to look a little older than she is, anyway!

[Maester Yobjascz]

Tysha -

Arthur Dayne appears once, in the ToJ dream scene, along with Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent. I simply think that it would be good for Dayne to stand out at that point. We don't meet Ashara Dayne until ACoK, when the Reeds tell Bran about the tourney at Harrenhall.

That said, you make a *very* good point about Jon Snow... I'll have to think about that. It wouldn't be the first time a *potential* son has taken more from the father than the mother, and that theory is first put forth in AGoT by Catelyn... so it might entrench itself before Ashara Dayne (or Arthur Dayne) is ever seen.

Also, I never said Smits was perfect... just that I haven't seen anyone else suggested who would fit quite as well. Aerys' Kingsguard is supposed to represent the old guard... the high point of honor and ability. I think it would enforce that image if the members of that Kingsguard were more mature. Jaime was the odd one out... very young, and came to represent Robert's Kingsguard (and Joffrey's) more than the old one. I'd prefer an older Arthur Dayne (not old... but mature in age, bearing, and appearance).

I'm not sure about Theron in Monster... I didn't get the impression that she was 'could-have-been' pretty, myself. But, I agree that she's not perfect for the role either... I'm just not certain that I've seen a better suggestion.

Overall, best argument I've seen yet on the Dayne's... though you still don't make any suggestions.

Thanks!

[Tysha]

Also, I never said Smits was perfect... just that I haven't seen anyone else suggested who would fit quite as well. Aerys' Kingsguard is supposed to represent the old guard... the high point of honor and ability. I think it would enforce that image if the members of that Kingsguard were more mature. Jaime was the odd one out... very young, and came to represent Robert's Kingsguard (and Joffrey's) more than the old one. I'd prefer an older Arthur Dayne (not old... but mature in age, bearing, and appearance).

I know what you mean but he can't be too old because he's Ashara's brother, and a twenty year age gap between the siblings would be a bit odd! He could be in his early 30s perhaps, but Smits is 51.

And I haven't actually thought at all about who could be the Daynes, which would explain why I haven't suggested anyone! I just can't help sticking my oar in...

[Maester Yobjascz]

Actually, a 20 year age gap isn't that odd... especially in a medieval society... if you have your first child when you're 16, you'd only be 36 to have that 20-year gap... not that difficult. If there's a remarriage, this is even more likely.

Second, while Smits himself might be 51, his character could easily be in his 40's... or even late 30's. Moreover, Ashara's character could be older than the actress' age... late 20's, for example (though it wouldn't make sense from a story perspective to have the Lady Ashara Dayne any older than this... it wouldn't be right for her to be a possible match for Eddard Stark). This would further narrow that gap.

In other words, I don't think the age of the actors, in the particular age range we're discussing, is a real issue.

[Tysha]

The age they look is more important than the age they are, yes, but Smits doesn't look in his 30s!

And while a 20 year age gap may be justifiable if you fanwank it, visually it would be a bit odd. If we see a 40 year old Arthur and then a 20 year old Ashara there might be a moment of, "Hang on ... was that guy her brother or her father?" Better to just keep the age gap to, say, ten years - Ashara can be 25, Arthur can be 35. I think that would be fine.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Tysha -

We see ethically diverse characters in AGoT with the Dothraki

Actually, I think the Dothraki were pretty monolithic when it came to ethics as well.

On another note... I think Velazquez with violet eyes would be pretty stunning...

[Q T Pie]

I'd like to submit Jeri Ryan for consideration as Brienne.

Here are my thought's on why Brienne is NOT ugly:

First we see her through Jamie's eyes while he is still a Lannister full and true, in love w/ Cersei and loyal to Daddy, yada yada yada... As his character evolves so do the descriptions of Brienne. She goes from ugly in his eyes to beautiful.

So, my argument is that she is in fact NOT ugly, she is simply not as beautiful as Cersei. Maybe plain and a little mannish looking but I think that underneath the description there is way more to her looks than we are initially led to believe.

Anyway, I think that Jeri Ryan (7 of 9) has sort of a square-jawed mannish look to her, but there are thousands of guys (and gals) out there who consider her attractive. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all, so who's to say that Brienne is "ugly"?

[JaimeLannister]

Is Brienne a joke

[Tysha]

Actually, I think the Dothraki were pretty monolithic when it came to ethics as well.

What's in an n?

And Q T Pie, I think Brienne is really supposed to be ugly. The first time we see her it is through Catelyn's eyes and Cat thinks, "Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman?" And she's mistaken for a man several times. I don't think Jaime really starts to think she's beautiful - he notices her eyes but he still laughs at the thought of her in a dress.

Jeri Ryan does have very strong features but there are two very good reasons why she shouldn't be Brienne...!

[Q T Pie]

Tysha:

Well, I'm not sure how much weight I put into Catelyn's opinion of anything either. She is the most self-centered, self-rightous, pain in the butt in any book I've ever read, ever...

But that aside, I managed to convince my boyfriend (who is the one who introduced me to the series) that GRRM might have intentionally used certain POV's to make it seem as though Brienne was far more ugly then she will turn out to be.

His response was "He doesn't want some hot-chick sword-weilder character for fan-boys to drool over" which isn't exactly what I was getting at but, the point was that I think there is more to Brienne that meets the eye, literally.

[Tysha]

So ... not a Catelyn fan then?!

If there was just one character who came along and told Brienne she wasn't as bad looking as everyone says I might buy it, but no-one does. She is treated incredibly cruelly because of her looks and no-one questions it. Opinions of her ugliness - with the exception of Jaime's appreciation of her eyes - seem to be pretty universal.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Geez... bit of a delay in getting this posted. But anyway...

A little bit of searching for Brienne turned up Kristin Johnson and Missi Pyle. Johnson is too old for the role, but Pyle is just about right. She's tall (5'11"), about the right age (34... Brienne's character should be mid-20's... this is close enough). She's got a *lot* of testosterone markers, most noticeably a *very* strong jaw and chin. Unfortunately, her eyes aren't that pretty (in my estimation), but some subtle makeup might help out there. Some additional (subtle) makeup to accentuate the wrong features would complete the 'uglification'.... Thoughts?

[Lyanna Stark-Targaryen]

Geez... bit of a delay in getting this posted. But anyway...

A little bit of searching for Brienne turned up Kristin Johnson and Missi Pyle. Johnson is too old for the role, but Pyle is just about right. She's tall (5'11"), about the right age (34... Brienne's character should be mid-20's... this is close enough). She's got a *lot* of testosterone markers, most noticeably a *very* strong jaw and chin. Unfortunately, her eyes aren't that pretty (in my estimation), but some subtle makeup might help out there. Some additional (subtle) makeup to accentuate the wrong features would complete the 'uglification'.... Thoughts?

I'm fine with her.

Any other updates I should do today?

[Lightsnake]

Which is why, in the LotR films, and in every other film adaptation of a book, all the actors/actresses match the physical descriptions 100%, and the dialogue in the films are word for word that in the book, right? An adaptation of ASOIAF is *never* going to be a perfect match of the books. Why? Because one is a book, and the other is a film (or TV series).

Because a dream cast has so much relevance on all of that!

at the very least we can TRY to keep it authentic

Unless something changes, you're never going to know what the characters are thinking in their heads during scenes. That necessitates that some lines being given from one character to another, some thoughts turned into spoken words, and other thoughts or narration translated to action. Scenes remembered in the book may become flashbacks, or may be expanded into entirely new scenes not contemplated by GRRM. So long as it is done in the spirit of the books, the characters, and the story, it can be done well... and is oftentimes necessary to give the film the depth that a true translation of the books would sorely lack.

Give me one good reason for the change.

The same goes for character descriptions. Frodo Baggins was *not* a young kid when imagined by Tolkien. He was an older gentleman, and Sam was more his squire than his friend. It was more along the lines of the traditional relationship in the British military between an officer and his sergeant... Master and Servant, Knight and Squire. However, that wouldn't have translated correctly for American audiences, nor would it have conveyed the lack of worldliness that a young Frodo would, and they had an excellent actor in Elijah Wood. So they changed the actor to fit what the *character* needed, and what the *film* needed... and did not stick to the literal description of Frodo in the books.

Well, it's a good thing this isn't Lord of the Rings and we're not doing Lord of the rings then.

I am suggesting that the same be done for Arthur Dayne. I agree that Jimmy Smits does not match the Amok rendering of the Sword of Morning. So continually harping on that is useless. Instead, I'm arguing that the film/series would be better off by making this change. You disagree... explain why. My previous post explains my view on this in more detail. You think we'd be better off with a Sword of Morning who looks the same as everyone else, save for violet eyes that *might* be noticed in a short flashback, argue it. You have a better suggestion for the Dayne's, make it.

Ok, how about not second guessing the author and the like? Make him an F-stop brighter. Stick to the description as close as possible.

A hispanic man is not Arthur Dayne any more than a black guy would be James Bond

Until then, stop throwing tantrums and pointing at the text. We know what the text says... it's been pointed out before. Unless you can argue with my other points, knock it off and move on to something constructive.

How're these for points?

Daynes are white, that's p[retty much all the point I need

Smits looks wrong and he's too old. Way too old for such a gap where the brother and sister were close enough to warrant her suicide. And if she's supposedly Jon's mother....Oh, and being Hispanic doesn't set you apart from everyone else, that's plain lunacy right there.

[Tysha]

Geez... bit of a delay in getting this posted. But anyway...

A little bit of searching for Brienne turned up Kristin Johnson and Missi Pyle. Johnson is too old for the role, but Pyle is just about right. She's tall (5'11"), about the right age (34... Brienne's character should be mid-20's... this is close enough). She's got a *lot* of testosterone markers, most noticeably a *very* strong jaw and chin. Unfortunately, her eyes aren't that pretty (in my estimation), but some subtle makeup might help out there. Some additional (subtle) makeup to accentuate the wrong features would complete the 'uglification'.... Thoughts?

Yeah, she's okay. I have the same issues as you but she's better than Peta Wilson, anyway! It probably doesn't help that I've seen her in such strong comedy roles (Galaxy Quest, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, that episode of My Name is Earl) that I think of her as 'comedy ugly' rather than actually ugly, if that makes sense. Not sure if she's nice enough to be Brienne but then I've only seen her playing pushy mothers and a strange alien. She seems very biting, not sure if she could do Brienne's insecurities. But she's probably the best suggestion so far.

Lyanna, did you see my suggestion of Romola Garai as Gilly? More pics of her here looking suitably dirty and ragged.

[Lyanna Stark-Targaryen]

Lyanna, did you see my suggestion of Romola Garai as Gilly? More pics of her here looking suitably dirty and ragged.

I did and I forgot to put her in, I'm doing it now.