Jump to content

Did ned stark know that roberts rebellion was started on a lie?


Danny-

Recommended Posts

Ned was an inconsistent character.  He cared about royal succession and rights, protecting the rights of true Baratheons to the throne.  Yet he did not protect the right of Targaryens to the throne.  He helped usurp it.

His idea of "rightful heir" is also weird.  Joffrey was both acknowledged and in-wedlock child of Robert.  Yet, he found it proper to usurp that as well.  To dis acknowledge it on Robert's behalf after his death and decide that Stannis is the rightful heir.

Dude was wild.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Ned was an inconsistent character.  He cared about royal succession and rights, protecting the rights of true Baratheons to the throne.  Yet he did not protect the right of Targaryens to the throne.  He helped usurp it.

His idea of "rightful heir" is also weird.  Joffrey was both acknowledged and in-wedlock child of Robert.  Yet, he found it proper to usurp that as well.  To dis acknowledge it on Robert's behalf after his death and decide that Stannis is the rightful heir.

Dude was wild.

Presumably, Ned viewed the Baratheons as the rightful rulers after Robert took the throne. So he viewed the Targaryen claim as null. And no wonder; the Targaryens killed his father and brother, tried to kill him and his best friend, and kidnapped/ran off with his sister (we don't know what Ned knew at the start of the Rebellion).

Joffrey wasn't Robert's son. He was a bastard of the Queen. Even if Robert believed he was his son, Ned knew he wasn't. The only reason he didn't tell Robert (which would have saved his own life, probably) was that he didn't want to hurt him on his deathbed. Robert's heir would have been Stannis had Ned told him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Didn't Steffon Baratheon die in a storm? Their ship was caught up in it and smashed it against the rocks? Or am I misremembering?

Read my post on page 4, №19, second from bottom of the page.

He did died in a storm. But there is a possibility that it wasn't an accident. Just a theory.

Also this part (it's text from wikia, Aerys' II Targarien page:

Spoiler

In his paranoia, Aerys believed that Tywin and Rhaegar had conspired to have him killed by storming Duskendale, so Rhaegar would ascend the Iron Throne and marry Tywin's daughter.

To prevent such conspiracies between Rhaegar and Tywin, Aerys summoned his old childhood friend, Lord Steffon Baratheon, to court, making him a member of the small council. Aerys publically announced Steffon would go to Volantis, to find a bride for Rhaegar of "proud Valyrian blood". The fact that Aerys entrusted this task to Steffon instead of Tywin or Rhaegar caused many to whisper that Aerys intended to make Steffon his new Hand of the King, upon the successful completion of this mission, and that Aerys planned to have Lord Tywin arrested and executed for high treason.

Steffon Baratheon's sudden death was very benefitial for Tywin. Circumstances of his death were just perfect. When, where, and how - PERFECT.

If Steffon died somewhere in Essos, during his mission, Tywin would be the first suspect to be blamed for it. But if Steffon, and all people that were with him in Essos, died in a shipwhreck during storm, nearly in his frontyard, witnessed by many, then it looked as though Tywin had nothing to do with it.

Though there was a sole survivor, and how convinient that this person is a fool and out of his mind, supposedly.

Isn't it weird that Patchface drunk poison, died, but then he was alive again? EDIT: My mistake - it was Cressen who drunk poison. Sorry

Spoiler

If Patchface's real identity is No one, then I think that he drunk that poison for scintific purposes, sort of like research. He wanted to know how exactly this poison works. No one's are assasins, though they often use poison to off their victims. Under certain circumstances they also have to drink or eat together with their intended victims, and sometimes consume poison together with them, not to arouse suspicions. So to prepare for that possibility, they regularly consume all sorts of poisons in small doses, gradually increasing dosage. Eventually they became immune to nearly all poisons.

If that is so, then Patchfase intentionally drunk that poison. It was new poison, unknown to him, so he wanted to experiense firsthand what kind of effects does it have. He knew that this poison won't actually kill him, because he has high poison resistance.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/29/2017 at 9:06 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

The rebels didn't go to war after Lyanna's kidnapping. They went to war after batshit insane Aerys roasted Rickard Stark alive and killed his heir in response for them wanting Lyanna back. And probably because of generally being fedup with the crazy tyrant.

If Aerys had not killed Rickard and Brandon, his line would likely still rule Westeros today.

This. As if Aerys being batshit crazy didn't matter. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Read my post on page 4, №19, second from bottom of the page.

He did died in a storm. But there is a possibility that it wasn't an accident. Just a theory.

Also this part (it's text from wikia, Aerys' II Targarien page:

  Reveal hidden contents

In his paranoia, Aerys believed that Tywin and Rhaegar had conspired to have him killed by storming Duskendale, so Rhaegar would ascend the Iron Throne and marry Tywin's daughter.

To prevent such conspiracies between Rhaegar and Tywin, Aerys summoned his old childhood friend, Lord Steffon Baratheon, to court, making him a member of the small council. Aerys publically announced Steffon would go to Volantis, to find a bride for Rhaegar of "proud Valyrian blood". The fact that Aerys entrusted this task to Steffon instead of Tywin or Rhaegar caused many to whisper that Aerys intended to make Steffon his new Hand of the King, upon the successful completion of this mission, and that Aerys planned to have Lord Tywin arrested and executed for high treason.

Steffon Baratheon's sudden death was very benefitial for Tywin. Circumstances of his death were just perfect. When, where, and how - PERFECT.

If Steffon died somewhere in Essos, during his mission, Tywin would be the first suspect to be blamed for it. But if Steffon, and all people that were with him in Essos, died in a shipwhreck during storm, nearly in his frontyard, witnessed by many, then it looked as though Tywin had nothing to do with it.

Though there was a sole survivor, and how convinient that this person is a fool and out of his mind, supposedly.

Isn't it weird that Patchface drunk poison, died, but then he was alive again?

  Reveal hidden contents

If Patchface's real identity is No one, then I think that he drunk that poison for scintific purposes, sort of like research. He wanted to know how exactly this poison works. No one's are assasins, though they often use poison to off their victims. Under certain circumstances they also have to drink or eat together with their intended victims, and sometimes consume poison together with them, not to arouse suspicions. So to prepare for that possibility, they regularly consume all sorts of poisons in small doses, gradually increasing dosage. Eventually they became immune to nearly all poisons.

If that is so, then Patchfase intentionally drunk that poison. It was new poison, unknown to him, so he wanted to experiense firsthand what kind of effects does it have. He knew that this poison won't actually kill him, because he has high poison resistance.

 

Where are you getting that Patchface drank poison from?

And your reply on page 4 doesn't even mention the storm - a rather crucial detail to omit, no? Did they pay someone to damage the ship during a storm (that might not have happened)? Did the people they paid to kill their parents decide that a storm (in an area known for dangerous storms) was the best time to try and kill them?

And of course no witnesses saved anyone from the ship: there was a violent storm going on. Who the hell is going to sail out into a storm on the off chance they might find a survivor?

Stannis also mentions his anger at the Gods of the Seven:

Quote

I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

Where are you getting that Patchface drank poison from?

Read Patchface's page on wikia.

:blink: Oops. My mistake - it was Cressen who drunk poison. Sorry :unsure:

Though this small part doesn't change much. He didn't drink poison. Ok. But Melissandre did say that he is dangerous. And he is the sole survivor from that shipwreck, so it is possible that he caused it.

Quote

And your reply on page 4 doesn't even mention the storm - a rather crucial detail to omit, no?

I didn't omitted that detail, I just didn't specify it, because it's a known fact that there was storm. So add storm to what I wrote

Quote

They had their spyes on that ship. Those people either perforated the walls/bottom of the ship, or blasted a barrel of gunpowder in ship's hold, and fled on small boat (beforehand damaging all other boats). Or they killed everyone on board beforehand, then sailed ship towards Storm's End and sunk it (with methods described prior), or made it collide with rocks, or be damaged by striking aground and sink.

More detailed description of what I meant:

Option one (with living people on board):

Patchface damaged ship, and escaped on boat. It was STORMING then. So when ship started to sink, BECAUSE THERE WAS ALREADY WATER IN IT'S HOLD, BECAUSE PATCHFACE DAMAGED SHIP, they lost control of the ship, the steering wheel stopped working <- that usually happens when water is reaching certain critical level. Then eventually ship wrecked. And all other boats were damages, so no one alse was able to escape. Real Steffon Baratheon was killed at least one day before that. His killer, a No one, took his face and wrote letter to castle of Storm's End, in which he informed B brothers that mission is accomplished, and that they will see it themselves. And he will destroy all evidences by sinking ship. Dead body of Steffon was also on that ship. Probably he was killed by poison.

Option two (when ship that wrecked near Storm's End was a ghost ship, i.e. everyone there were ALREADY dead by the time ship wrecked):

Patchface sent raven to B brothers, copying Steffon's handwriting (because raven was received first by castle's maester, and only after that letter was given to B brothers). Then he poisoned everyone on board. And when ship was approaching coast, he directed it towards sea reefs. To make sure that ship will sink, he also additionally damaged it. And then escaped.  

Quote

Did they pay someone to damage the ship during a storm (that might not have happened)? Did the people they paid to kill their parents decide that a storm (in an area known for dangerous storms) was the best time to try and kill them?

In an area known for dangerous storms, posibility of a storm is very high. So they originally included storm as a crutial part of their plan - to destroy all evidences afterwards. 

Plan A - no storm - No one killed Steffon, impersonated him, and ordered his people to sail towars shore after storm started.

Plan B - storm - Ghost ship. Kill everyone beforehand and then sink ship.

Plan C - it was storming when they set off from Essos, but during their jorney storm stopped - kill Steffon, impersonate him, order his people to anchor ship, and wait for next storm <- they're near Storm's End, so the wait won't be long. Plan C2 - if people will start questioning fake Steffon, why aren't they sailing home - kill everyone - Ghost ship.

Tywin hired assassin from Volantis. When Baratheon seniors were setting off from Essos, he was already among their people.

Quote

Stannis also mentions his anger at the Gods of the Seven

Maybe he was against it. But he couldn't confront Robert. He was always overshadowed by Robert, and did what Robert wanted. So he was praying to Seven to prevent it from happening. But they didn't saved his parents.

Or

- everyone was saying that Robert Baratheon's rebellion began because Rhaegar Targarien kidnapped, raped, and murdered Robert's fiancee Lyanna Stark.

- Ned was saying that Jon's mother's name is Willa, and that Jon is a bastard.

- Dany is saying that she can't have children.

- Jon Snow said that he will always remain a virgin <- when he pledged to Night's Watch.

- Melisandre said that Stannis is the prince that was promissed.

- Cersei told everyone that father of her three children is Robert.

- Arya told to Jagen that she's a No one.

people lie. Stannis lied.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, boojam said:

Does it not seem that even if Robert knew the marriage was legitimate that he would have gone to war anyway?

I think so. He wasn't known for being level headed and he was hopelessly in love apparently. It seems mostly all of the seven kingdoms were looking for a way to remove Aerys, including his son. I think it was a matter of any provocation would do. I see Robert's character not being able to accept Lyana not wanting him but it's just my own interpretation.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, boojam said:

Does it not seem that even if Robert knew the marriage was legitimate that he would have gone to war anyway?

Probably, his great-grandfather (or grandfather) did the same thing too, I believe. Rebelling against the king because of a broken betrothal. 

Also, would Brandon Stark have cared if it was a mutual love either? I think he'd still be pissed enough at the audaciousness of the prince eloping with his engaged little sister that he'd still ride to King's Landing to fight Rhaegar. You know, like the overprotective brother tvtrope thing. And we're back to the start of the story, Aerys capturing Brandon for his outbursts, then murdering him and his father, and then seeking to murder Ned and Robert. 

So yeah, Lyanna and Rhaegar both being in loooooove wouldn't stop shit. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Didn't Robert Baratheon tell Brandon Stark Rhaegar had taken Lyanna and not that Lyanna left with Rhaegar willingly. Robert basicly got Neds brother and Fire Roasted. I kinda get Ned maybe had some level of dislike for Robert but he was king so am certain Ned had to pretend to be the same loyal friend. Ned pretty much snapped over the Council wanting too have Dany and her baby murdered and Ned true bottled up feelings came out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, EddardSnow said:

Didn't Robert Baratheon tell Brandon Stark Rhaegar had taken Lyanna and not that Lyanna left with Rhaegar willingly. Robert basicly got Neds brother and Fire Roasted. I kinda get Ned maybe had some level of dislike for Robert but he was king so am certain Ned had to pretend to be the same loyal friend. Ned pretty much snapped over the Council wanting too have Dany and her baby murdered and Ned true bottled up feelings came out.

Robert was with Ned in the Vale when the whole thing went down. We don't know who told Brandon; it could have been a guardsman, for all we know. Brandon was in the Riverlands when he heard the news, so that basically rules Robert out.

Again, it's worth remembering that people didn't go to war over Lyanna's kidnapping; they went to war over Aerys killing Rickard and Brandon and then demanding that Jon Arryn kill Ned and Robert. Even if people knew Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar, that wouldn't unkill her family or make Aerys' demands disappear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, EddardSnow said:

Well maybe i was wrong Ned was mad at Robert for the women and children slaughter allowed to be done by tywins men .

Yes, Ned was pissed at Robert for basically rewarding the Lannisters after Jaime murdered the king and Tywin murdered Elia and her children. Ned wanted Jaime sent to the Wall I believe and Tywin to also be punished, but instead Robert kept Jaime as his KG and married Cersei. 

After watching his sister die Ned calmed down, but I think he knew that it could never be the same between he and Robert, especially with Robert on his Targ hate parade while Ned was raising one as his own child - a child he loved as much as his own children. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll throw a few thoughts here:
- The rebellion itself wasn't built on a lie but Robert's was. Robert thought he was going to war to save Lyanna (whether he deluded himself or just didn't know isn't that important, it's the same thing in the end).
- The "secret marriage" makes no sense in the show. In the books, Rhaegar has a number of reasons why he would keep a marriage to Lyanna secret (he is plotting against his father, he doesn't want to antagonize Dorne, he may be using polygamy... etc). In the show however, since he has obtained an annulment from the High Septon, he has no reasons to keep it secret ; on the contrary, it's silly to get an annulment if you don't use it. And even assuming he personally didn't want to spread the news before the war is over, others had no reason to keep the secret. One could easily argue that, in fact, Rhaegar and others should have spread the news to weaken the rebel cause.
- Rhaegar had grounds to repudiate Elia, not to annul his marriage to her. And since even Elia's barrenness isn't mentioned in the show, the annulment is really idiotic. Some moron must have confused the two, not realizing that it does make a difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only lie about RR was the death of Prince Lewin Martell.

The man joins the kingsguard to protect his niece and Rhaegar lets him die by his side not telling him that he annulled the marriage to Elia (at least in the show). Classic douche move.

Secondly, the start of RR had nothing to do with Lyanna, no one here mentioned but the heir to the Vale was also killed alongside Brandon Stark, and Jon Arryn was summoned to KL the same way Rickard was. So Jon had two options: 1 - Kill both his wards and die at the hands of the mad king. 2 - Tell him to fck off and go to war.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ned had to stay loyal Baratheon  even if Jon would be the real aire or Dany. If Ned would have seemed any pro Targ it would have put jon in danger so Neds true feelings was a lie as well about Politics but in the North He was King basicly and so Ned stayed north too avoid being near Lannister and Roberts kingdom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 30.08.2017 at 7:12 PM, RhaenysB said:

Yeah, I'm not quite clear about that part of the story, but Jon could have said, take a deep breath, let's count to ten and let's talk about this before we off even more people. 

Frankly speaking I think the time for that reasoning was already over and offing more people was the only reasonable thing left to do. Wiping enemy out was the most sane decision.

You know what Machiavelli said about those things: "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 30.08.2017 at 7:25 PM, Hoo said:

Ned was an inconsistent character.  He cared about royal succession and rights, protecting the rights of true Baratheons to the throne.  Yet he did not protect the right of Targaryens to the throne.  He helped usurp it.

No wonder Stannis held him in some regard. They had similar dilemma.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Rippounet said:

The "secret marriage" makes no sense in the show. In the books, Rhaegar has a number of reasons why he would keep a marriage to Lyanna secret (he is plotting against his father, he doesn't want to antagonize Dorne, he may be using polygamy... etc). In the show however, since he has obtained an annulment from the High Septon, he has no reasons to keep it secret ; on the contrary, it's silly to get an annulment if you don't use it.

Sure, it makes no sense to get an annulment if you're not going to use it.* But it does make sense to get an annulment if you're going to use it in nine months.

We have lots of examples (in the books, at least) of princes who ran off and eloped and their fathers demanded that they set aside the spouse. Sometimes the princes stood their ground and prevailed, but it was always a struggle. But if you come back with a legitimate baby, it's basically fait accompli; there's nothing dad can say.

And, likewise, it affects what the Martells can do. They can't demand that the events be undone when there's already a baby; the only thing they can do is ask for some kind of compensation for having used and wasted such a prime daughter.**

 

---

* Unless Rhaegar is actually religious. I mean, the Faith does probably teach that marrying a woman and knocking her up while you're still married to someone else is sinful and will be punished by the Father, and I'm guessing Westerosi in general take that stuff somewhat seriously, more like medieval Europeans than modern ones. But let's forget that.

** And if they're smart, they'll try to make a deal with Rhaegar instead of making a demand to Aerys. Having soon-to-be-King Rhaegar in your debt, with your grandson still as his heir, is probably worth a lot more than pissing off the Mad King and who knows what happens. And if Elia and Doran's mother wa anything like show!Doran, she'll be able to calm down and be smart.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, TwiceBorn said:

You know what Machiavelli said about those things: "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared".

I know people like to describe characters like Tywin as Machiavellian, but you can only take that so far.

Machiavelli was a Renaissance writer looking back on the common wisdom that everyone believed from the medieval era to identify things that everyone had gotten wrong. And much of he came up with was kind of shocking even in his era. To anyone living in the medieval era, some of his ideas were literally almost unthinkable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...