Universal Sword Donor Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 4 minutes ago, Aegon VII said: Thank you! I was about to post this and one of his other quotes so I'm glad at least this one has been brought up. To say grrm did not make dragons a parallel for nukes is simply wrong. Here's another quote: The dragons are the ultimate weapon in the world of Ice and Fire. They’re controlled by only a few people. You can win wars with them, win battles with them, but that doesn’t mean you can govern successfully with them—build a successful society and culture. In that sense, they are like nuclear weapons. Like right now, you see President Obama and Congress and NATO all wrestling with what to do about ISIS in the Middle East. One thing no one mentions is nuclear weapons. We could wipe them off the map tomorrow if we wanted to use our dragons. Still, when do you do that? Do you ever do that? What are the moral ramifications? What does that do to you? President Obama has little and less to do with congress on his mind these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegon1FanBoy Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 15 hours ago, DominusNovus said: Are we sure about that? Given their close connection to magic, its quite possible that they are an entirely artificial creation Yea pretty sure artificially created or not they didn't level city for thpousands of years before the Valyrians weaponized them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegon VII Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: President Obama has little and less to do with congress on his mind these days He might have nukes on his mind even more these days though, now that he's handed off the key. It's like dany handed her dragons off to viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 7 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: If you saw a dragon do nothing but murder your family, eat them, and then follow up with your village? Ruling out a relatively primitive society who believes in tree gods, a lord of light, a death god, and the seven and believe in magic calling a living (potential) killing machine evil is a stretch. We as the readers might disagree but the people in story would overwhelmingly call it evil. In text giants and dragons are considered evil. Just to clarify - because I'm genuinely confused - you're in the dragons are evil camp, right? As to characters, we've seen that they also consider dragons to be a spectacle. Others think they're magnificent creatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 17 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said: In all honesty, Barth's ruminations on the beginnings of dragons have ever quite washed with me. No doubt the man was often correct in his estimations of other subjects, but I never quite got why the wyvern/firewyrm origin theory is so well regarded, considering the tales of dragons who predated Valyria. Where was his proof and who/what were his sources? Also: Imagine we had magical flying horses with horns that can cure poison and detect virgins, and you asked "How could such magical creatures exist?" If my reply were "The Romans just bred pegasi and unicorns", I suppose it's technically an answer, but it wouldn't explain any of the stuff you wanted explained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo of House Cartel Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 6 hours ago, falcotron said: Also: Imagine we had magical flying horses with horns that can cure poison and detect virgins, and you asked "How could such magical creatures exist?" If my reply were "The Romans just bred pegasi and unicorns", I suppose it's technically an answer, but it wouldn't explain any of the stuff you wanted explained. one part Pegasi, one part Unicorn, a pinch of Thoros and a sprinkle of Gargon the Guest? A poignant point my friend, too true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 17 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: Just to clarify - because I'm genuinely confused - you're in the dragons are evil camp, right? As to characters, we've seen that they also consider dragons to be a spectacle. Others think they're magnificent creatures. Read what I wrote. If you still have questions, read again. After that, keep reading it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukhasinov Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 Dragons are domesticated animals with no moral agency. When Vermithor was ridden by Jahaerys, he was a benign symbol of royal power and prestige. When ridden by Hugh Hammer, he was a weapon of terror. They proved to be effective as a "Nuclear Deterrent," enforcing peace through strength across the continent. The reign of Maegor was the last time until the Dance that dragons were used in anger on the soil of Westeros. That`s 81 years where the power of House Targaryen was so absolute that none dare challenge them. Even during the Dance, the dragons were used in ways that were remarkably consistent with modern ethics of warfare. With the notable exception of Aemond`s campaign of terror in the Riverlands, dragons were only used against armies in the field, fortified positions, warships at sea, and other dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 On 8/29/2017 at 10:21 PM, DominusNovus said: Dragon's are only evil if you can assign them moral agency. So, the question becomes: do they have moral agency? If they are as intelligent as dogs, well, then its hard to say that they're really good or evil. If they're closer to human intelligence, then you can make an argument that they are good or evil. But then you have the problem of treating a group of sapient beings are identically moral and examining the nature v nurture debate. I would like to twist the question around: Are people good or bad, and should they be trusted with the power of dragons? Very good argument. We have to remember that dragons aren't first and foremost, weapons but animals. They aren't bad anymore than destriers, war elephants or attack dogs are. Dragons are dangerous, but their destructive power doesn't make them evil. They usually don't inflict mass devastation unless commanded by their riders. Wild dragons seem to have more of a taste for mutton than humans. The Cannibal is the exception, and other than that, the only times we see dragons eat people is when humans are fed to them. The fault for dragons should lie with their riders and the people they serve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Dragons according to GRRM in the Songs series are animals and with an animal comprehension , and like all animal are interested in animal things . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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