Bonkers

Who told the lie that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna?

99 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I couldn't find the topic so I started this one, if you know of a more in-depth one/response please post below...

Obviously my question is who told Brandon Stark that Lyanna had been kidnapped?  We assume from the books (as even Barriston Selmy tells us that singers sing songs of R dying for the woman he loved) that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, so who told the lie to her brother that she was kidnapped?  I doubt Littlefinger had anything to do with it, so who does that leave with any motive?

It was, after all, the reason for the the Rebellion.... could Tywin have made it up to start a war?  Could it be that the meeting he arranged with Rhaegar at Harrenhal failed so he destroyed them?

Edited by Bonkers

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Women in the medieval world are weak and over emotional. Anything beyond knitting and producing children was thought to be too complicated for them. Its up to the superior male to do the thinking for them. Even if Lyanna attached to Rhaegar's leg and refused to let go then that would still be considered as a kidnap.

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Posted (edited)

Im pretty sure that the majority of Westeros is still under the impression that Rhaegar kidnaped her. We have more information than most characters in the books and can come to the conclusion that she possibly went willingly. However, most lords and smallfolk assume the story that Robert believed (rightfully so) to be true.

I still like to think that Littlefinger had something to do with it though lol.

I also think that if Aerys had not been his usual nutcase self then the rebellion would have been avoided. I think the main reason was the burning of the Starks and demanding Ned and Robert from Jon.

Edited by KingMudd

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And Lyanna died in a bed of blood - begging Ned to take her bones to Winterfell - after a wire-hanger abortion of the Dragonspawn that Rheagar had forcibly impregnated her with ...

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7 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

I couldn't find the topic so I started this one, if you know of a more in-depth one/response please post below...

Obviously my question is who told Brandon Stark that Lyanna had been kidnapped?  We assume from the books (as even Barriston Selmy tells us that singers sing songs of R dying for the woman he loved) that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, so who told the lie to her brother that she was kidnapped?  I doubt Littlefinger had anything to do with it, so who does that leave with any motive?

It was, after all, the reason for the the Rebellion.... could Tywin have made it up to start a war?  Could it be that the meeting he arranged with Rhaegar at Harrenhal failed so he destroyed them?

Who told Brandon is a good question, but we have no real answer. It is likely, indeed almost certain, that Lyanna, as the highborn daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, was not traveling without escort. Winterfell guards and a female companion/tutor such Septa Mordane was to Sansa and Arya would be what we would expect. My guess is that they are on their way from the Vale to attend Brandon's wedding when they encounter Rhaegar's party. The answer is probably as mundane as the name of a Winterfell guardsmen who rode from the encounter to tell Brandon and met him on the road. If you want a name, I'd speculate on Martyn Cassel, but it could just as easily be someone we have never heard of. I agree fifteen year old, and severely injured Littlefinger is highly unlikely.

The motive is simple if he or she is part of Lyanna's escort. Brandon is her eldest brother and in charge of her safety as her father rides from Winterfell to attend the wedding. It's that person's duty to tell Brandon what has taken place.

The conspiracy theory about Tywin, omits very important facts. It is very clear from the text that the Targaryens themselves believe Rhaegar took Lyanna, willingly or not, and that when Hightower finds the crown prince it looks very much like he did so where Lyanna died. Rhaegar has every opportunity once he leaves the tower of joy to proclaim his innocence in the kidnapping, but from the tales we hear from his family there is no reason to believe he was not involved.

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35 minutes ago, devilish said:

Women in the medieval world are weak and over emotional. Anything beyond knitting and producing children was thought to be too complicated for them. Its up to the superior male to do the thinking for them. Even if Lyanna attached to Rhaegar's leg and refused to let go then that would still be considered as a kidnap.

I'm assuming the first part of that bit was said tongue in cheek. The second part is true enough, though. Even if she was 16, her father had entered into a sacred contract with the Lord of Storm's End. At best, Rhaegar's actions comprised intentional interference with that contract. 

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16 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Who told Brandon is a good question, but we have no real answer. It is likely, indeed almost certain, that Lyanna, as the highborn daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, was not traveling without escort. Winterfell guards and a female companion/tutor such Septa Mordane was to Sansa and Arya would be what we would expect. My guess is that they are on their way from the Vale to attend Brandon's wedding when they encounter Rhaegar's party. The answer is probably as mundane as the name of a Winterfell guardsmen who rode from the encounter to tell Brandon and met him on the road. If you want a name, I'd speculate on Martyn Cassel, but it could just as easily be someone we have never heard of. I agree fifteen year old, and severely injured Littlefinger is highly unlikely.

The motive is simple if he or she is part of Lyanna's escort. Brandon is her eldest brother and in charge of her safety as her father rides from Winterfell to attend the wedding. It's that person's duty to tell Brandon what has taken place.

The conspiracy theory about Tywin, omits very important facts. It is very clear from the text that the Targaryens themselves believe Rhaegar took Lyanna, willingly or not, and that when Hightower finds the crown prince it looks very much like he did so where Lyanna died. Rhaegar has every opportunity once he leaves the tower of joy to proclaim his innocence in the kidnapping, but from the tales we hear from his family there is no reason to believe he was not involved.

Young Benjen? 

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33 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

Who told the lie that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna?

Who says it is a lie? Even the Targaryen version of events, as relayed by Daenerys' POV, says that Rhaegar carried Lyanna off at swordpoint. The official story of what Rhaegar did to Lyanna during all the months after that may be a lie, but it seems pretty cut and dry that Rhaegar appeared to abduct Lyanna.

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Well, we don't even know if Brandon thought that Lyanna was kidnapped against her will, he may have known that she was willing but still perceived Rhaegar as the perpetrator who stained the Stark honour. Who told him, and what exactly, is probably the reason why he thought that Rhaegar was in KL.

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I personally support the theory that Littlefinger either witnessed the kidnapping, or knew it was not a kidnapping and lied to get Brandon killed, touching off the war.

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48 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

I doubt Littlefinger had anything to do with it, so who does that leave with any motive?

Probably the people closest to Rhaegar. The ToJ scene strongly suggests that Rhaegar was trying to establish a new succession so he could depose Aerys and  maintain the backing of institutions like the KG and alliances with important houses. Knowing that such a plot was unambiguously treason, the kidnapping story would actually have been safer. 

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After "The Hedge Knight" came out, I have thought it likely that alleged "kidnapping" of Egg by Dunk in this story was a mirror to whatever happened with Lyanna. I.e. that she escaped from her escort and they lied about the circumstances in order to minimize their responsibility, just as Daeron the Drunken had done. She was later seen in Rhaegar's company and the rest is history.

Alternatively, Lyanna sent a messenger, perhaps even Benjen, explaining her actions, but Brandon went ballistic and cooked up an ill-advised face-saving lie that he thought would protect family honor. The fact that he didn't even ask after Lyanna upon his rival to KL would support this notion.  

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39 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I personally support the theory that Littlefinger either witnessed the kidnapping, or knew it was not a kidnapping and lied to get Brandon killed, touching off the war.

Such a convoluted explanation is unnecessary and unrealistic. Even the Targ account says Rhaegar carried Lyanna off at swordpoint. Any surviving witnesses would have attested that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. They wouldn't be privy to the true nature of their relationship, all they would be able to speak of is her abduction.

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Posted (edited)

35 minutes ago, Maia said:

After "The Hedge Knight" came out, I have thought it likely that alleged "kidnapping" of Egg by Dunk in this story was a mirror to whatever happened with Lyanna. I.e. that she escaped from her escort and they lied about the circumstances in order to minimize their responsibility, just as Daeron the Drunken had done. She was later seen in Rhaegar's company and the rest is history.

Alternatively, Lyanna sent a messenger, perhaps even Benjen, explaining her actions, but Brandon went ballistic and cooked up an ill-advised face-saving lie that he thought would protect family honor. The fact that he didn't even ask after Lyanna upon his rival to KL would support this notion.  

I see no reason for Daenerys to think of Rhaegar carrying Lyanna off at swordpoint if that were not part of the Targ narrative of things, as she does not go around promoting the narratives of the rebels.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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36 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Probably the people closest to Rhaegar. The ToJ scene strongly suggests that Rhaegar was trying to establish a new succession so he could depose Aerys and  maintain the backing of institutions like the KG and alliances with important houses. Knowing that such a plot was unambiguously treason, the kidnapping story would actually have been safer. 

Here's the full Rhaegar timeline during Robert's Rebellion, as far as I know:

1. Rhaegar elopes with/abducts Lyanna Stark.

2. Rhaegar hangs with Lyanna for two or three months, at least.

3. Rhaegar leaves Dorne to take command of the royalist army.

4. Rhaegar is killed at the ruby ford.

If his objective was deposing his father, this was really poor stategery.

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You have to consider two important points here:

1. Lyanna was still a minor, and the daughter of a great lord. She was not exactly a free individual. She could not go where she wanted or do what she wanted. She was under the 'loving care' of her family. Which most likely means that she was under the protection of some Stark guardsmen or men-at-arms when she was taken by Rhaegar at swordpoint - something that's most likely true considering that it is part of the Targaryen narrative which sure as hell would have not added an abduction plot to the story if there had been no abduction.

It could also be the case that Lyanna was guarded by some Whent men when she was taken, but I doubt that her Stark brothers left her without a retinue of their own men in the Riverlands. That would be very unusual. In addition, they might actually have known more about the Rhaegar-Lyanna affair at Harrenhal and they may have suspected that she might intend to go to Rhaegar if she has the chance - so it makes sense to assume that they would have wanted to prevent such a development by putting Lyanna under close guard.

2. That, in turn, provides us with an answer who may have told Brandon about what had transpired - one or some of the (Stark) guardsmen who witnessed the abduction. Such (a) person(s) would have been there when it happened and they most likely would have survived the incident because Rhaegar most likely did not slaughter the men who guarded Lyanna (although it would be an interesting detail if he did kill some of them).

The idea that the person telling Rhaegar was a person of relevance or importance to the plot is not very convincing. It could be that a person of note from a minor Northern house was there - or not.

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2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

And Lyanna died in a bed of blood - begging Ned to take her bones to Winterfell - after a wire-hanger abortion of the Dragonspawn that Rheagar had forcibly impregnated her with ...

They had moon tea for abortions. you were thinking of someone closer to you 

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Consider the precedent of Duncan Targaryen, called Duncan the Small and later the Prince of Dragonflies. His father arranged for him to wed the daughter of the Lord of Storm's End. However, while traveling in the Riverlands, he became entranced by Jenny of Oldstones. Duncan, a man grown, wed her without his father's permission. Now obviously, this would not be characterized as a kidnapping, but consider the consequences when the stubborn prince refused to heed his father's demand that he set aside his bride. Apparently, Duncan and his bride were welcomed at court, so we can assume that Aegon V acquiesced, which to Lord Lyonel Baratheon's eyes must have looked like acceptance. He rebelled until Aegon's champion defeated Lord Lyonel in single combat, and made amends by offering a daughter to House Baratheon in place of Duncan. So, in our case, if Lord Rickard had acquiesced to Rhaegar's "kidnapping" of Lyanna, Robert would have had a cause of action against Winterfell, and Rickard might have had to send Brandon to fight Robert. Brandon, being all hot headed and none too happy about Rhaegar's interference in the affairs of House Stark, was not about to allow his house to acquiesce. 

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As to Duncan the Small - his father, Aegon Vth was a bit atypical.

I'd imagine that Tywin's reaction to Tyrion doing the same thing as Duncan is more in line with the "Westerosi standard". The standard being annulment, that is.

The gangrape is probably 100% Tywin ...

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22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You have to consider two important points here:

1. Lyanna was still a minor, and the daughter of a great lord. She was not exactly a free individual. She could not go where she wanted or do what she wanted. She was under the 'loving care' of her family. Which most likely means that she was under the protection of some Stark guardsmen or men-at-arms when she was taken by Rhaegar at swordpoint - something that's most likely true considering that it is part of the Targaryen narrative which sure as hell would have not added an abduction plot to the story if there had been no abduction.

1. I find it very unlikely that Rhaegar carried her off at swordpoint considering eveything we know about both their characters. Just because the Targ narrative of events include the kidnapping doesn't make it true. All that means is that Dany and Viserys don't know the truth either; not unsuprising since Dany was not even born at the time and Viserys just a child.

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