Who told the lie that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna?

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Who gets profit from it?

Aerys.

Who serves Aerys?

Varys.

Now continue to blame Mocking Bird.

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

1. I find it very unlikely that Rhaegar carried her off at swordpoint considering eveything we know about both their characters. Just because the Targ narrative of events include the kidnapping doesn't make it true. All that means is that Dany and Viserys don't know the truth either; not unsuprising since Dany was not even born at the time and Viserys just a child.

Well, the swordpoint scenario is the one scenario we have textual evidence for. There is no alternative narrative to that one.

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, Greg B said:

 

If his objective was deposing his father, this was really poor stategery.

We pretty well know that he wanted to convene all the great lords at Harrenhal, but was foiled by Aerys's attendance. He also told Jaime that changes would be made when he returned from the war. He was up to something. I think his crowning of Lyanna was meant to telegraph his intent to establish a new succession and primary alliance. And given the background information on Brandon Stark it makes sense that he wouldn't wait for an explanation. 

Ned's conversation at the ToJ makes it clear that at least those three KG considered baby Jon the true successor, so I'd say Rhaegar's coup was well under way. He just died before it could be completed. And because this explanation presumes the legitimacy of Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage, the succession could proceed despite his death. On paper anyway. 

@Lord Varys Do you think it's possible Rickard Stark was in on the plan and basically had Lyanna escorted to the rendezvous/abduction? I'm starting to wonder if Aerys's murder of Brandon and Rickard was more about political retribution than personal enmity.

Also I think the "at swordpoint" phrase is a steamy double entendres, meant to indicate a sexual relationship. 

[teej6]

Rhaegar and Lyanna probably had met on a few occassions (especially if you believe that Lyanna is tKotLT) before the alleged kidnapping and were probably already in love. Rheagar, noble as he was, probably didn't want Lyanna or the Starks to be tainted by the elopment of the already bethrothed daughter of the Lord of Winterfell and decided to stage a kidnapping. This is likely how the narrative of Lyanna's abduction at sword point  got started.  This way Lyanna's and the Stark honor is protected and Rhaegar probably assumed as crown prince he could take the blame, at least initially. He may have assumed once the anger and initial outrage died, he could then reason with Aerys, Rickard, and possibly even Robert. I don't know how he intended to deal with the Martells though. However, Rhaegar's plans may have gone awry once Brandon decided to charge to the Red Keep and demand a fight with him. He may not have anticipated that reaction from Brandon or the response from his batshit crazy father. Once this chain of events were set in motion, there was probably no way for Rhaegar to timely intervene and stop things. Or perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna were not informed of Brandon and Rickard's deaths due to the machinations of other people (with self-serving motives) involved.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

What about Robert? I mean, it's possible he found Lyanna gone, or possibly seen leaving with Rhaegar. We know he was infatuated with her. So in his mind it's possible he convinced himself that the only way Lyanna left with Rhaegar is because he kidnapped her. His honor was at stake here too. Lyanna was betrothed to him. If she ran off with another man it wouldn't look good on him. Robert is also impulsive and cannot control his baser instincts, like anger. He may have gone into a fit of rage, deluded himself with a lie, dragged his buddy Brandon into it, and the next thing you know, war. He probably wanted to kill Rhaegar kidnapping or not. Some events, like Aerys's death, was probably not intended until he decided to set the capital on fire. The Starks didn't go to war over Lyanna's alleged kidnapping. They went because Aerys killed Brandon and Stark Sr. Ned probably knew the truth, but probably was smart enough not to point it out later. He had Jon to consider after all. It's also possible Varys or Littlefinger played a role too. Who knows, it's possible we'll never know considering everyone involved is dead. It's that one thing that's not even hinted at in prophesies. 

[Greg B]

47 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Ned's conversation at the ToJ makes it clear that at least those three KG considered baby Jon the true successor, so I'd say Rhaegar's coup was well under way. He just died before it could be completed.

He died leading the royalist army! Some coup!

To the point, he did nothing (that any surviving person has had reason to remark on) between making off with Lyanna and taking command of the royalist army. He made no overtures. He sent no envoys. He sent no ravens. He did no politicking or negotiating. As far as every character in the books has ever said or thought, he did nothing for months. That's no way to manage a coup. son.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

As to Duncan the Small - his father, Aegon Vth was a bit atypical.

I'd imagine that Tywin's reaction to Tyrion doing the same thing as Duncan is more in line with the "Westerosi standard". The standard being annulment, that is.

The gangrape is probably 100% Tywin ...

Distinguishable since Tyrion wasn't betrothed. 

[Praetor Xyn]

Very likely no one. She just disappeared one day and I'm guessing the natural assumption was that she was kidnapped. The question is why they believed Raegar had done it? Perhaps just because he crowned her at Harrenhall, but I don't remember any direct reference on the subject.

[Lord Varys]

51 minutes ago, cgrav said:

We pretty well know that he wanted to convene all the great lords at Harrenhal, but was foiled by Aerys's attendance. He also told Jaime that changes would be made when he returned from the war. He was up to something. I think his crowning of Lyanna was meant to telegraph his intent to establish a new succession and primary alliance. And given the background information on Brandon Stark it makes sense that he wouldn't wait for an explanation. 

That doesn't sound likely at all. The crowning was more likely just a private thing turned public. Rhaegar wanted to get under Lyanna's skirts and drink her honey, as Lord Walder would put it, or convince her to not end the relationship they already had (it is not unlikely at all that the whole thing was already consummated at Harrenhal), and to that end he really went out of the way to honor and suck up to her in public.

Now, Aerys and his cronies interpreted the whole thing in a political way but that's not how it was meant. If Rhaegar wanted to forge an alliance with the Starks he would have done so more quietly. The fact that Brandon and Ned were publicly unhappy about the crowning thing as well as Robert's cold fury shows that this whole thing wasn't exactly thought through. And that's ignoring Aerys' own interpretation of the thing which seems to have dealt the father-son relationship another major blow.

51 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Ned's conversation at the ToJ makes it clear that at least those three KG considered baby Jon the true successor, so I'd say Rhaegar's coup was well under way. He just died before it could be completed. And because this explanation presumes the legitimacy of Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage, the succession could proceed despite his death. On paper anyway. 

Rhaegar intended to make real changes after a victory over the rebels put him in a much stronger position. He would then be the savior of House Targaryen and could dictate terms to his own father - or not, depending how much Rhaegar cared about the lives of Elia and his children who were Aerys' hostages at that point.

But we also don't know how Rhaegar got back into his father's good graces and how or why on earth Aerys gave Rhaegar command of the Targaryen armies. He could have given it to his Hand (Chelsted), or even his KG - Hightower, Selmy, Darry, Jaime, etc. There are pieces missing there. Aerys and Rhaegar must have reconciled again, at least on a superficial level.

And I don't think Rhaegar intended to kill or formally depose his royal father. He would most likely have just made himself Prince Regent, confining his father to his apartments to rule in his stead until such a time the king recovered from his mental illness or died.

51 minutes ago, cgrav said:

@Lord Varys Do you think it's possible Rickard Stark was in on the plan and basically had Lyanna escorted to the rendezvous/abduction? I'm starting to wonder if Aerys's murder of Brandon and Rickard was more about political retribution than personal enmity.

That is not very likely in my opinion. We don't know whether Rickard was at Harrenhal - if he wasn't then Rhaegar wouldn't have been in close contact with him and Brandon is not exactly the kind of man who would have passed messages back and forth between Rhaegar and Rickard.

In addition, there are hints that Rickard was acquainted with Aerys - he spent some time at court in the early 260s and may even have accompanied the Targaryen army to the Stepstones - as well as hints that Rickard was a stern and harsh man. Roose Bolton apparently feared him, and Benjen and Lyanna have to be cautious that Rickard doesn't find out what they are doing in the godswood. I doubt such a man would have wanted to back the son over the father. And it seems that Rickard thought he would get justice from King Aerys in KL. Else he wouldn't have gone there so willingly.

Now, considering that he was apparently very ambitious there is a chance he would have listened if Rhaegar had ever approached him and asked for Lyanna's hand but I doubt that ever happened.

All we can say at this point is that it is very likely that Lyanna was actually abducted in the sense that she was taken by force or threat of arms from the people guarding her - and those most likely would have been Stark men. Lyanna herself might have been fine with being taking in this fashion but House Stark was not. Not at all.

48 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Rhaegar and Lyanna probably had met on a few occassions (especially if you believe that Lyanna is tKotLT) before the alleged kidnapping and were probably already in love. Rheagar, noble as he was, probably didn't want Lyanna or the Starks to be tainted by the elopment of the already bethrothed daughter of the Lord of Winterfell and decided to stage a kidnapping. This is likely how the narrative of Lyanna's abduction at sword point  got started.  This way Lyanna's and the Stark honor is protected and Rhaegar probably assumed as crown prince he could take the blame, at least initially. He may have assumed once the anger and initial outrage died, he could then reason with Aerys, Rickard, and possibly even Robert. I don't know how he intended to deal with the Martells though. However, Rhaegar's plans may have gone awry once Brandon decided to charge to the Red Keep and demand a fight with him. He may not have anticipated that reaction from Brandon or the response from his batshit crazy father. Once this chain of events were set in motion, there was probably no way for Rhaegar to timely intervene and stop things. Or perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna were not informed of Brandon and Rickard's deaths due to the machinations of other people (with self-serving motives) involved.

That doesn't make a lot of sense.

For one, it doesn't help anyone involved if you create the scenario of an abduction and a possible rape if you are just aiming for a consensual marriage. Minors usually should only marry with the consent of their parents but if they do it anyway and play it right they can remain married even if their families oppose such match.

The best way to do the whole thing would have been to have Lyanna ran away, meet with Rhaegar somewhere, have a (public) wedding and announce it to the world as quickly as possible.

Then you are the party in control of events and you can (help) influence how things unfold from there. Rhaegar and Lyanna did nothing of this sort. Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and then they went into hiding, doing nothing to try to prevent their family and friends from killing each other and thousands of innocent people.

Rhaegar taking the blame for as heinous a crime as the abduction and rape of the daughter of a great lord would also be a very bad idea. The man wasn't exactly in good standing with his royal father nor the Stark family at this point. Giving the public the impression that you did something as ugly as this and then trying to come out later on with some sort of explanation like 'Well, guys, I got you there. We are soo much in love and everything was consensual and we are married now.' is utterly ridiculous.

Which is why I believe Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and then married her in public - or at least publicly announced that he had taken a second wife in Lyanna Stark - before the Stark trials. Brandon only went to KL to complain about that whole thing but Aerys thought he and Rickard (and Ned and Robert) were Rhaegar's accomplices and that's why they were all sentenced to death.

Aerys would also have burned Rhaegar alive had he been able to lay his hands on him at that point. He was the man he feared at that point, not men as irrelevant as Rickard and Brandon Stark.

The idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna were not told about what transpired in KL and elsewhere during the beginning war also makes no sense. Those are not things you can keep from people. The news about Rickard and Brandon as well as the beginning of the Rebellion would spread through the entire Realm like wildfire. Sure, depending where they were it might have taken them weeks to hear it but they would have heard it.

Either they did not care about what transpired (unlikely, considering that it involved Lyanna's father and brother) or they felt the need to hide, too. The idea that they were fucking so hard and so often that they didn't realize what was going on around them would make sense in a fairy-tale but not this setting.

They knew what was going on and they must also have known that they were directly responsible for the entire thing. Which likely really killed both their honeymoon and perhaps even their entire marriage. After all, there must also be a reason why Lyanna stayed behind at the tower rather than accompanying Rhaegar.

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaegar taking the blame for as heinous a crime as the abduction and rape of the daughter of a great lord would also be a very bad idea. The man wasn't exactly in good standing with his royal father nor the Stark family at this point. Giving the public the impression that you did something as ugly as this and then trying to come out later on with some sort of explanation like 'Well, guys, I got you there. We are soo much in love and everything was consensual and we are married now.' is utterly ridiculous.

Which is why I believe Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and then married her in public - or at least publicly announced that he had taken a second wife in Lyanna Stark - before the Stark trials. Brandon only went to KL to complain about that whole thing but Aerys thought he and Rickard (and Ned and Robert) were Rhaegar's accomplices and that's why they were all sentenced to death.

Aerys would also have burned Rhaegar alive had he been able to lay his hands on him at that point. He was the man he feared at that point, not men as irrelevant as Rickard and Brandon Stark.

The idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna were not told about what transpired in KL and elsewhere during the beginning war also makes no sense. Those are not things you can keep from people. The news about Rickard and Brandon as well as the beginning of the Rebellion would spread through the entire Realm like wildfire. Sure, depending where they were it might have taken them weeks to hear it but they would have heard it.

Either they did not care about what transpired (unlikely, considering that it involved Lyanna's father and brother) or they felt the need to hide, too. The idea that they were fucking so hard and so often that they didn't realize what was going on around them would make sense in a fairy-tale but not this setting.

They knew what was going on and they must also have known that they were directly responsible for the entire thing. Which likely really killed both their honeymoon and perhaps even their entire marriage. After all, there must also be a reason why Lyanna stayed behind at the tower rather than accompanying Rhaegar.

I didn't say it was a smart idea. If you assume Rhaegar was in love and that he felt abducting Lyanna was the only way to save her from a loveless marriage, then perhaps Rhaegar was stupid enough to do it. I mean the man was dumb enough to run off/kidnap a high lord's daughter while he was married to a woman from another great house and had two kids by her. Obviously the man wasn't really thinking things through. All his planning to depose Aerys might have just been sidelined for his new found love's happiness.

Also, I find the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a public marriage or that the knowledge that they were married being public "utterly rediculous". Not one single person mentions a marriage between the two or alludes to this in the entire series, which is downright strange. I believe that Rhaegar did take Lyanna as his wife but this was not public knowledge. Aerys also probably found out about it after he had Rickard and Brandon killed and not before.

And since when did you become a proponent of Rhaegar and Lyanna being married? I thought your whole spiel until recently was that Jon is illegitimate. 

It's very possible that Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't know of Rickard and Brandon's deaths until well after it happened. And that's not because they were love sick or busy shagging one another, but because this information could have been kept from them from people with good intentions or bad. And I didn't say that they didn't find out about it till the start of the war. I'm sure they were told after Rickard and Brandon were killled but Rhaegar was left with few options after this happened. His father had just unjustly killed the Lord of Winterfell and his heir. What could he actually do after the fact apart from deposing Aerys, which wasn't really an option by then. We don't know if Rhaegar tried to communicate with Ned or Jon Arryn or was even able to after Jon Arryn declared war. We have no idea what transpired and when. So unless GRRM details the events in the next books, nothing you or I state are facts. And that's why unlike you, I usually qualify my thoughts on the unknowns with the words "it's possible" or "I believe/feel" instead of stating things as if they were facts.

[cgrav]

2 hours ago, Greg B said:

 That's no way to manage a coup. son.

And he might have gotten away with it, if it weren't for those meddling Northmen.

It's not much of a coup without a succession at the ready. Coups always involve the risk of death. He wanted to make the changes after the Rebellion, so he readied a child of ice and fire just in case he died. Which he did.

You could also look at it as an attempt to failsafe the Targaryen line, just in case the children by Elia got killed. Which they did. 

And Jon survived, as planned. What wasn't planned was the defeat of the three Kingsguard at the ToJ.

[DominusNovus]

3 hours ago, Praetor Xyn said:

Very likely no one. She just disappeared one day and I'm guessing the natural assumption was that she was kidnapped. The question is why they believed Raegar had done it? Perhaps just because he crowned her at Harrenhall, but I don't remember any direct reference on the subject.

This is my interpretation.  Even without taking into account medieval standards of what counted as kidnapping and rape (we've all heard the story of how the original job of a best man was to make sure that the bride's family didn't come take her back), it seems pretty straightforward to me.  Lyanna disappeared and/or was seen in the company of Rhaegar.  Nobody heard otherwise as to why or how this happened.  Add in that Brandon Stark was quite rash, and its not a hard picture to paint.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

I didn't say it was a smart idea. If you assume Rhaegar was in love and that he felt abducting Lyanna was the only way to save her from a loveless marriage, then perhaps Rhaegar was stupid enough to do it. I mean the man was dumb enough to run off/kidnap a high lord's daughter while he was married to a woman from another great house and had two kids by her. Obviously the man wasn't really thinking things through. All his planning to depose Aerys might have just been sidelined for his new found love's happiness.

It is one thing to not think the whole thing through - as Rhaegar's granduncle Duncan did not that long ago - and to be cowardly enough to not even admit publicly what you are doing and put yourself into an even worse position than you would be if you were committing your crime like a man, out in the open. What could Rhaegar possibly gain by giving the public impression he was lusty rapist, getting pleasure from abducting the daughter of a great lord against her will? How is being Rhaegar's whore better for Lyanna's honor than being his (second) wife? I'm pretty sure Maegor's six wives - some of whom were queens - had a much better social standing than Aegon the Unworthy's nine mistresses...

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Also, I find the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a public marriage or that the knowledge that they were married being public "utterly rediculous". Not one single person mentions a marriage between the two or alludes to this in the entire series, which is downright strange. I believe that Rhaegar did take Lyanna as his wife but this was not public knowledge. Aerys also probably found out about it after he had Rickard and Brandon killed and not before.

That isn't evidence in this case. This is a series where knowledge about the past is revealed continuously overtime, and if there is something glaringly obvious than that there are huge gaps in our knowledge about the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna. And the largest gaps there are in their story after Harrenhal, involving Rhaegar's journey, the abduction, and the events leading up to the beginning of the Rebellion.

We cannot assume we know everything we know about the events there, just as we can't assume we know everything that's to be known about the past of many other important characters.

It is also glaringly obvious that we can read the chapters from POVs knowing stuff without them ever telling us the things we want to know - Ned refused to think about Jon's true name and parentage. Does that mean he didn't know? Jon Connington never even thinks about Lyanna in his two chapters? Does that mean he doesn't know or never will serve as a POV into that mystery? Of course not.

My guess is that Rhaegar either had some sort of public wedding at a place where he felt save - Maidenpool, perhaps - or he publicly announced that he had taken a second wife at such a place, and then things didn't go as well as he had hoped (against hope) that they would. If we don't at least assume that then Rhaegar and Lyanna are conceived as utter morons and completely unbelievable and inconsistent characters because neither of them has any reason to hide from the Starks and the king. So why didn't they go to KL? Why didn't Rhaegar present his second wife to the court and the world? Why didn't Rhaegar reach out to his royal father and the Starks to prevent violence?

The only answer that makes sense is that he tried and failed because Aerys wanted his head as much at the time as he wanted to see Brandon and Rickard burn for their treason.

It is doubly odd that Lyanna never tried or offered to try to reach an understanding with Ned and/or Robert. After all, they allegedly loved her well, right? So why is it that she was shut away in that tower? There has to be a good explanation for that, too. 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

And since when did you become a proponent of Rhaegar and Lyanna being married? I thought your whole spiel until recently was that Jon is illegitimate. 

I guess you never properly read the things I write. Things are rather complex here. I always thought Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. But that doesn't mean people are going to buy the story that Jon is the son of that union or that they consider him legitimate even if they believe he is their son and that they had a marriage ceremony. Polygamy isn't part of the majority culture in the Seven Kingdoms. And that means that you can attach a question mark to this whole marriage thing there if you want to. You are not obliged to view it as a proper monogamous union.

And there is no proof whatsoever that the Jon Snow we know is truly the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I mean, strictly speaking not even Howland Reed, Wylla, Ashara Dayne, whoever else saw the little child have reason to believe or could conclusively prove that the boy Ned Stark raised as his bastard Jon actually is that child. I mean, they weren't exactly at Winterfell with him the entire time, right? Lyanna's child could have died and Ned could have had a bastard, after all...

They could believe that this is the case but whether anybody else gets convinced by their beliefs is another question. And even if they buy the story - that doesn't mean they have to publicly acknowledge this. A lot of people (including the Tyrells) believe Cersei's children are not Robert's seed yet that doesn't prevent them from supporting the Lannisters.

I always argued against the silly idea that the truth about Jon's parentage has any political relevance in and of itself. It can only be relevant if important members of House Targaryen and/or their representatives (Daenerys, Aegon, Tyrion, etc.) actually buy this story and publicly declare and/or welcome 'Jon Snow' into House Targaryen. If they do that then their followers will also believe the story. And then Westeros at large might come around to the idea, too, after some time.

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

It's very possible that Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't know of Rickard and Brandon's deaths until well after it happened. And that's not because they were love sick or busy shagging one another, but because this information could have been kept from them from people with good intentions or bad.

That would only make sense if they had no access to the outside world. That is not very likely. It is a long way from Harrenhal to the Red Mountains, and ravens flew much faster. Perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna could have been halfway through the Reach by the time the news of the beginning of the war reached them - if we assume they went directly south which we actually don't know - but the idea that they would not have interacted with smallfolk getting garbled rumors about the war and the events at KL from their local lords simply doesn't make any sense.

And neither does the idea that the people with them - Dayne and Whent and possibly others like Connington, Mooton, Lonmouth in the beginning - kept news about the war against House Targaryen from them makes no sense whatsoever.

If you think about Lyanna's character and personality she wouldn't have cared about the fact that Brandon and Rickard were long dead by the time she learned about that. She would have still tried to do something. She would not have done nothing. Unless forced to do nothing by Rhaegar. He is the one who made the decision to keep her with the three knights in that tower. 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

And I didn't say that they didn't find out about it till the start of the war. I'm sure they were told after Rickard and Brandon were killled but Rhaegar was left with few options after this happened. His father had just unjustly killed the Lord of Winterfell and his heir. What could he actually do after the fact apart from deposing Aerys, which wasn't really an option by then. We don't know if Rhaegar tried to communicate with Ned or Jon Arryn or was even able to after Jon Arryn declared war. We have no idea what transpired and when. So unless GRRM details the events in the next books, nothing you or I state are facts. And that's why unlike you, I usually qualify my thoughts on the unknowns with the words "it's possible" or "I believe/feel" instead of stating things as if they were facts.

Well, what we can say is that Lyanna - who would have been ideally qualified to negotiate a peace or truce between Rhaegar and Ned/Robert - never reached out to those men because she spent the war in a tower in the middle of nowhere after Rhaegar left her there. 

It is not impossible that Rhaegar/Lyanna tried to reach out to Ned earlier during the war but in the beginning they weren't waging a war against Rhaegar. The rebels were fighting for their lives - or at least Robert and Ned did - against King Aerys II Targaryen, not Prince Rhaegar. That is an important distinction. The way to settle this thing with Ned would have been to publicly denounce King Aerys II and join the rebels in their struggle to depose the Mad King. Robert only grew into the role of this warrior king prepared to replace the Targaryen king throughout the course of the war. They did not start with that idea in mind. If Rhaegar and Lyanna had gone to Winterfell instead of the Red Mountains they could have been part of the army Ned led down south. Ned, Rhaegar, and Jon Connington could have dealt with Robert at the Battle of the Bells. He would have been at their mercy.

The explanation why nothing came of all that is most likely twofold:

1. Ned wasn't exactly fond of the idea of Lyanna marrying Rhaegar nor the whole abduction thing which clearly was stain on Stark honor. He also didn't know what exactly transpired there although he may have know there was a marriage.

2. Rhaegar and Lyanna were on the run, too, before Ned and Robert were even targeted, and unlike them they might not have been able to contact a lot of people considering that a polygamous Targaryen prince defying his royal father and humiliating his loyal wife in public isn't exactly going to be the kind of guy you want to harbor, support, or anything to do with. If Aerys and the High Septon publicly condemned Rhaegar's actions - and there is no reason not to assume they did if they learned about it - then Rhaegar effectively would have been a persona non grata until such time as his father publicly forgave him. And that's what Aerys apparently did when he began searching for him, offering to make him Hand (choosing Connington when he could not find him), with Hightower finding him eventually.

And Rhaegar eventually chose sides, and he did choose his father and his house, not Lyanna and the Starks - whom he certainly could also have chosen. Or how do you interpret his decision to keep Lyanna in the tower and lead the king's army against Ned and Robert? He did this of his own free volition as far as we know, there is no reason to believe he was forced to do this.

I don't think he wanted to kill Ned but one assumes he accepted the fact that his actions might kill another brother of Lyanna Stark, and I'm pretty sure he had no problem whatsoever to kill his cousin Robert. He pretty much says so in his last conversation with Jaime. Do you think Lyanna was fine with all that? She had just lost a brother and a father, she most likely wasn't yet ready to lose Ned, too, and while she didn't love Robert I doubt she wanted to see him harmed or killed. And she sure as hell would not want Rhaegar to defend the madman who killed her brother and father.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, teej6 said:

Rhaegar and Lyanna probably had met on a few occassions (especially if you believe that Lyanna is tKotLT) before the alleged kidnapping and were probably already in love. Rheagar, noble as he was, probably didn't want Lyanna or the Starks to be tainted by the elopment of the already bethrothed daughter of the Lord of Winterfell and decided to stage a kidnapping. This is likely how the narrative of Lyanna's abduction at sword point  got started.  This way Lyanna's and the Stark honor is protected and Rhaegar probably assumed as crown prince he could take the blame, at least initially. He may have assumed once the anger and initial outrage died, he could then reason with Aerys, Rickard, and possibly even Robert.

Not sure if I mentioned it in the previous debate about the staged abductions, but there is a very interesting parallel, or perhaps inspiration? in G.G.Kay's A Song for Arbonne. There is a staged abduction to cover up for a secret love affair, of a lady married for duty, and results in the conception of a child. The lady dies in childbirth, the child is hidden and grows up in ignorance of her heritage as the sole remaining heir of two powerful houses. - Need I say that the secrecy involves a deathbed promise?

6 hours ago, teej6 said:

I don't know how he intended to deal with the Martells though. 

If Elia was on board with the prophecy and three dragon heads, then she could convince her brothers not to beyond formal protests.

[Free Northman Reborn]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is one thing to not think the whole thing through - as Rhaegar's granduncle Duncan did not that long ago - and to be cowardly enough to not even admit publicly what you are doing and put yourself into an even worse position than you would be if you were committing your crime like a man, out in the open. What could Rhaegar possibly gain by giving the public impression he was lusty rapist, getting pleasure from abducting the daughter of a great lord against her will? How is being Rhaegar's whore better for Lyanna's honor than being his (second) wife? I'm pretty sure Maegor's six wives - some of whom were queens - had a much better social standing than Aegon the Unworthy's nine mistresses...

That isn't evidence in this case. This is a series where knowledge about the past is revealed continuously overtime, and if there is something glaringly obvious than that there are huge gaps in our knowledge about the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna. And the largest gaps there are in their story after Harrenhal, involving Rhaegar's journey, the abduction, and the events leading up to the beginning of the Rebellion.

We cannot assume we know everything we know about the events there, just as we can't assume we know everything that's to be known about the past of many other important characters.

It is also glaringly obvious that we can read the chapters from POVs knowing stuff without them ever telling us the things we want to know - Ned refused to think about Jon's true name and parentage. Does that mean he didn't know? Jon Connington never even thinks about Lyanna in his two chapters? Does that mean he doesn't know or never will serve as a POV into that mystery? Of course not.

My guess is that Rhaegar either had some sort of public wedding at a place where he felt save - Maidenpool, perhaps - or he publicly announced that he had taken a second wife at such a place, and then things didn't go as well as he had hoped (against hope) that they would. If we don't at least assume that then Rhaegar and Lyanna are conceived as utter morons and completely unbelievable and inconsistent characters because neither of them has any reason to hide from the Starks and the king. So why didn't they go to KL? Why didn't Rhaegar present his second wife to the court and the world? Why didn't Rhaegar reach out to his royal father and the Starks to prevent violence?

The only answer that makes sense is that he tried and failed because Aerys wanted his head as much at the time as he wanted to see Brandon and Rickard burn for their treason.

It is doubly odd that Lyanna never tried or offered to try to reach an understanding with Ned and/or Robert. After all, they allegedly loved her well, right? So why is it that she was shut away in that tower? There has to be a good explanation for that, too. 

I guess you never properly read the things I write. Things are rather complex here. I always thought Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. But that doesn't mean people are going to buy the story that Jon is the son of that union or that they consider him legitimate even if they believe he is their son and that they had a marriage ceremony. Polygamy isn't part of the majority culture in the Seven Kingdoms. And that means that you can attach a question mark to this whole marriage thing there if you want to. You are not obliged to view it as a proper monogamous union.

And there is no proof whatsoever that the Jon Snow we know is truly the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I mean, strictly speaking not even Howland Reed, Wylla, Ashara Dayne, whoever else saw the little child have reason to believe or could conclusively prove that the boy Ned Stark raised as his bastard Jon actually is that child. I mean, they weren't exactly at Winterfell with him the entire time, right? Lyanna's child could have died and Ned could have had a bastard, after all...

They could believe that this is the case but whether anybody else gets convinced by their beliefs is another question. And even if they buy the story - that doesn't mean they have to publicly acknowledge this. A lot of people (including the Tyrells) believe Cersei's children are not Robert's seed yet that doesn't prevent them from supporting the Lannisters.

I always argued against the silly idea that the truth about Jon's parentage has any political relevance in and of itself. It can only be relevant if important members of House Targaryen and/or their representatives (Daenerys, Aegon, Tyrion, etc.) actually buy this story and publicly declare and/or welcome 'Jon Snow' into House Targaryen. If they do that then their followers will also believe the story. And then Westeros at large might come around to the idea, too, after some time.

That would only make sense if they had no access to the outside world. That is not very likely. It is a long way from Harrenhal to the Red Mountains, and ravens flew much faster. Perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna could have been halfway through the Reach by the time the news of the beginning of the war reached them - if we assume they went directly south which we actually don't know - but the idea that they would not have interacted with smallfolk getting garbled rumors about the war and the events at KL from their local lords simply doesn't make any sense.

And neither does the idea that the people with them - Dayne and Whent and possibly others like Connington, Mooton, Lonmouth in the beginning - kept news about the war against House Targaryen from them makes no sense whatsoever.

If you think about Lyanna's character and personality she wouldn't have cared about the fact that Brandon and Rickard were long dead by the time she learned about that. She would have still tried to do something. She would not have done nothing. Unless forced to do nothing by Rhaegar. He is the one who made the decision to keep her with the three knights in that tower. 

Well, what we can say is that Lyanna - who would have been ideally qualified to negotiate a peace or truce between Rhaegar and Ned/Robert - never reached out to those men because she spent the war in a tower in the middle of nowhere after Rhaegar left her there. 

It is not impossible that Rhaegar/Lyanna tried to reach out to Ned earlier during the war but in the beginning they weren't waging a war against Rhaegar. The rebels were fighting for their lives - or at least Robert and Ned did - against King Aerys II Targaryen, not Prince Rhaegar. That is an important distinction. The way to settle this thing with Ned would have been to publicly denounce King Aerys II and join the rebels in their struggle to depose the Mad King. Robert only grew into the role of this warrior king prepared to replace the Targaryen king throughout the course of the war. They did not start with that idea in mind. If Rhaegar and Lyanna had gone to Winterfell instead of the Red Mountains they could have been part of the army Ned led down south. Ned, Rhaegar, and Jon Connington could have dealt with Robert at the Battle of the Bells. He would have been at their mercy.

The explanation why nothing came of all that is most likely twofold:

1. Ned wasn't exactly fond of the idea of Lyanna marrying Rhaegar nor the whole abduction thing which clearly was stain on Stark honor. He also didn't know what exactly transpired there although he may have know there was a marriage.

2. Rhaegar and Lyanna were on the run, too, before Ned and Robert were even targeted, and unlike them they might not have been able to contact a lot of people considering that a polygamous Targaryen prince defying his royal father and humiliating his loyal wife in public isn't exactly going to be the kind of guy you want to harbor, support, or anything to do with. If Aerys and the High Septon publicly condemned Rhaegar's actions - and there is no reason not to assume they did if they learned about it - then Rhaegar effectively would have been a persona non grata until such time as his father publicly forgave him. And that's what Aerys apparently did when he began searching for him, offering to make him Hand (choosing Connington when he could not find him), with Hightower finding him eventually.

And Rhaegar eventually chose sides, and he did choose his father and his house, not Lyanna and the Starks - whom he certainly could also have chosen. Or how do you interpret his decision to keep Lyanna in the tower and lead the king's army against Ned and Robert? He did this of his own free volition as far as we know, there is no reason to believe he was forced to do this.

I don't think he wanted to kill Ned but one assumes he accepted the fact that his actions might kill another brother of Lyanna Stark, and I'm pretty sure he had no problem whatsoever to kill his cousin Robert. He pretty much says so in his last conversation with Jaime. Do you think Lyanna was fine with all that? She had just lost a brother and a father, she most likely wasn't yet ready to lose Ned, too, and while she didn't love Robert I doubt she wanted to see him harmed or killed. And she sure as hell would not want Rhaegar to defend the madman who killed her brother and father.

Indeed, Lord Varys has accepted that Jon is legitimate for a long time, while still arguing that it will not be relevant from a political or dynastic perspective. However, sticking to the latter position is requiring him to increasingly bury his head in the sand. It is pretty clear from a variety of sources that Jon's parentage will be extremely relevant. Something which has been quite clear from reading between the lines in the books for a long time.

If one did not have an inherent bias against it, that is.

[devilish]

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I'm assuming the first part of that bit was said tongue in cheek. The second part is true enough, though. Even if she was 16, her father had entered into a sacred contract with the Lord of Storm's End. At best, Rhaegar's actions comprised intentional interference with that contract. 

That's how the medieval world saw women (and why it was so messed up). That's mirrored in GOT. Women are often married off like cattle, their father had an unquestionable say about their future etc. A mentality which survived in some European countries up till 100 years ago. 

May I remind you that Lyanna voiced her concerns with Ned about Robert but the wolf simply dismissed them.

[Hodor the Articulate]

10 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Who says it is a lie? Even the Targaryen version of events, as relayed by Daenerys' POV, says that Rhaegar carried Lyanna off at swordpoint. The official story of what Rhaegar did to Lyanna during all the months after that may be a lie, but it seems pretty cut and dry that Rhaegar appeared to abduct Lyanna.

I think "carried off at swordpoint" was used in the romantic sense, like in all those cheesy romance novels where the love interest "forces" the MC to kiss him, and she really likes it because he's being all manly and dominant.

[Graydon Hicks]

11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I personally support the theory that Littlefinger either witnessed the kidnapping, or knew it was not a kidnapping and lied to get Brandon killed, touching off the war.

i believe this, it fits with his usual methods.

[desire]

Charles Stiles that guy ruins everything 

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

12 hours ago, Bonkers said:

I couldn't find the topic so I started this one, if you know of a more in-depth one/response please post below...

Obviously my question is who told Brandon Stark that Lyanna had been kidnapped?  We assume from the books (as even Barriston Selmy tells us that singers sing songs of R dying for the woman he loved) that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, so who told the lie to her brother that she was kidnapped?  I doubt Littlefinger had anything to do with it, so who does that leave with any motive?

It was, after all, the reason for the the Rebellion.... could Tywin have made it up to start a war?  Could it be that the meeting he arranged with Rhaegar at Harrenhal failed so he destroyed them?

Well, to answer that question we need info on what happened to Lyanna Stark's entourage.  For a traveling highborn lady , free-spirited or not, an entourage of handmaidens and guards would be needed.  Sadly, there is no mention of their fates, so I will just list possibilities of the fate of the entourage, and reactions to those possibilities.  I am assuming that Lyanna is not a horrible person who would willingly lead her entourage to their slaughter just so she could elope.

1. There were no surviving members of the entourage.

   A. Rhaegar was the one attacking, yet there were witnesses who saw enough detail to figure out what happened.

   B. 'Bandits' were the ones attacking Lyanna Stark's entourage, with Rhaegar being *tricked into rescuing Lyanna and fleeing south with her.

2. There were surviving members of the entourage.

   A. Rhaegar was the one attacking, yet surviving entourage were able to get word to Brandon Stark.

   B. There was no attack, Lyanna Stark was able to escape her entourage in a way that placed guilt of kidnapping on Rhaegar.

*I know this theory is a bit crackpot, but it is one of the few theories that best lines up with known personalities and actions of both Rhaegar and Lyanna, without having to use the easy out of "they are idiots/young and in love".  I apologize if this is a bit off topic.  The theory is that in order to capitalize on the moment and destabilize the kingdom, as the period between King Aerys II going mad and Rhaegar taking over would be the most unstable time, a trap was set for Rhaegar to be implicated in the kidnapping of Lyanna.  It assumes that Lyanna was chosen as a result of the events of the Tourney at Harrenhal and that the instigator was able to convince Rhaegar that there was a plot to kill Lyanna by either a group of bandits or poison.  The fear of assassination via poison would explain why Rhaegar fled to an abandoned tower in Dorne, and the fear/ presence of bandits would explain why Rhaegar did not just bring Lyanna to either the North or Riverrun.   As to who would instigate it, either King Aerys II in order to alienate Rhaegar from the STAB alliance, Varys in a Blackfyre plot, or Tywin in order to either get Aerys in his debt or get Cersei to marry the new king.