Jump to content

Who told the lie that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna?


Bonkers

Recommended Posts

21 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Not sure if I mentioned it in the previous debate about the staged abductions, but there is a very interesting parallel, or perhaps inspiration? in G.G.Kay's A Song for Arbonne. There is a staged abduction to cover up for a secret love affair, of a lady married for duty, and results in the conception of a child. The lady dies in childbirth, the child is hidden and grows up in ignorance of her heritage as the sole remaining heir of two powerful houses. - Need I say that the secrecy involves a deathbed promise? :D

If Elia was on board with the prophecy and three dragon heads, then she could convince her brothers not to beyond formal protests.

Interesting parallel indeed. I can also see Elia being on board with Rhaegar's plans if she was certain that she was unable to give him more children. In medieval Europe the purpose of most noble women especially royalty was giving the kingdom heirs, including spare heirs considering the life expectancy and infant mortality at the time. In this case, Rhaegar was also obsessed with prophecy and if he was trying to recreate the three dragon heads, he may have been able to convince Elia and people closest to him about the need for another child by him. 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The entire affair from start to finish is a mysterious mess. We know that Rhaegar, Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell abducted/captured/freed/whatevered Lyanna near Harenhal. We know that she was taken to the Tower of joy (which in itself is utterly bizarre) and died there. We know Rhaegar was at the ToJ for several months before meeting up with the Royalist army and dying at the Ruby ford. Everything else is a big question mark.For example, why was Lyanna traveling under such a light escort and where was she going? She was an unmarried young noble so you thin she would be traveling with her father or her brother yet neither Rickard nor Ned are mentioned as seeing the abduction first hand and we know that Brandon heard about it while traveling to Riverrun. Hell why take Lyanna to the Tower of Joy in the first place? It's entirely out of communications range and is in Dorne, the homeland of your wife and in-laws. Why not Dragonstone, Rhaegar's seat or Crackclaw point, a region of Targaryen Loyalists? Those are just two of the mysterious issues that are involved.

 

Now as to whatever plans Rhaegar had to remove his father, in my opinion they were too little too late. The man's actions in regard's to Lyanna's abduction and it's aftermath proved that he was just as divorced from reality as his father was. He literally chose to screw around while the realm burned because of his actions. Rhaegar's obsession with prophecy led to the downfall of himself and his dynasty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Hiigara129 said:

ell why take Lyanna to the Tower of Joy in the first place? It's entirely out of communications range and is in Dorne, the homeland of your wife and in-laws.

That may have been the point - darkest under the candlestick, where no-one would look and no angry messages could find them.

34 minutes ago, Hiigara129 said:

Why not Dragonstone, Rhaegar's seat or Crackclaw point, a region of Targaryen Loyalists? 

Because that's where everyone would expect them to be?

IMHO, based on what we see about the king's role in disapproved relationships: if the king finds out, you're screwed, because he forbids it and by continuing the affair, you would be committing treason. But if you're out of reach, and no-one can find you, he cannot really forbid it, right? And when the deed is done (e.g. marriage consummated, like with Egg's children), the king can throw a hissy fit but the union cannot be dissolved; especially if there is a visible proof in the form of advanced pregnancy. So that's why, I think, ToJ. Rhaegar and Lyanna perhaps never expected the shitstorm escalating so badly because of Brandon's rash act, because without it, no death sentences would have been performed or requested. So, the main question is, why the hell Brandon thought that Rhaegar was in KL, when it was not his seat of power and his strained relationship with Aerys was not exactly a secret? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lots of good ideas here!

I'm going to borrow a few and combine them. If Lyanna really was the Knight of the Laughingtree at Harrenhall, and that is where she and Rhaegar fell in love, would it be possible that someone sneaky witnessed their interactions? Let's say Lyanna ditched her escort in the Riverlands (her horse game was strong) and her little brother Benjen tagged along. When he caught up to her, he saw Rhaegar with a sword or a dagger to her back, but in a joking/loving way. Claiming he had apprehended the vile Knight as his father as commanded.

Little Benjen says, "where are you taking my sister!?!?" Lyanna responds, "Beat it twerp!" Or something along those lines, and she and Rhaegar laugh and ride off together. As Benjen is returning, a mysterious guy approaches and says that as someone from a noble house & future knight he should have taken great offense to that man running off with your sister. Yada yada yada, Benjen (who is like 12) gets convinced to say that Prince Rhaegar accosted his sister and lead her away by the sword. Who tricked him into embellishments? Littlefinger.

WAR! ToJ, Ned finds out the truth... Returns to Winterfell and tells Benjen that no matter how much he loves him, Benjen's little lie costs everyone dearly. Benjen tries to explain, but Ned won't hear it. He tells his little brother that he only has one option to redeem himself for his actions and that's to take the black.

they never discuss it again.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/30/2017 at 10:01 AM, Ser Petyr Parker said:

The show just got this wrong too. The rebellion wasn't just because Lyanna got kidnapped. It was because when Brandon Stark went to commit treason by shouting for Rhaegar's death, Aerys arrested him, summoned his father, Rickard, sadistically murdered them both, then ordered Jon Arryn to kill his former wards, Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. Even if Lyanna chose to elope, there's ample motivation for rebellion there.

Fixed that for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 31.08.2017 at 9:18 AM, Romaine3 said:

If Lyanna really was the Knight of the Laughingtree at Harrenhall, and that is where she and Rhaegar fell in love, would it be possible that someone sneaky witnessed their interactions? Let's say Lyanna ditched her escort in the Riverlands (her horse game was strong) and her little brother Benjen tagged along. When he caught up to her, he saw Rhaegar with a sword or a dagger to her back, but in a joking/loving way. Claiming he had apprehended the vile Knight as his father as commanded.

I see a wee problem with your fantasising about Rheagar not kidnapping Lyanna.

Rickard - in the Riverlands

Brandon - in the Riverlands

Ned - in the Vale (?)

Yet we are told that:

"There must be a Stark in Winterfell".

Even Lyanna - although I am not sure if girls count towards the "Stark in Winterfell" requeriment - is in the Riverlands

So only Benjen is left "to hold the fort" ...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

I see a wee problem with your fantasising about Rheagar not kidnapping Lyanna.

Rickard - in the Riverlands

Brandon - in the Riverlands

Ned - in the Vale (?)

Yet we are told that:

"There must be a Stark in Winterfell".

Even Lyanna - although I am not sure if girls count towards the "Stark in Winterfell" requeriment - is in the Riverlands

So only Benjen is left "to hold the fort" ...

That is actually a no-brainer because we don't know whether Lyarra Stark - Rickard Stark's wife - was still alive at that time. She was a Stark, too. And there is a chance that some of the other Stark cousins only died during the Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion.

We know that Artos' twin sons Brandon and Benjen had issue of their own. Such children could still have been alive and at Winterfell in the 280s.

On 31.8.2017 at 4:40 AM, teej6 said:

Interesting parallel indeed. I can also see Elia being on board with Rhaegar's plans if she was certain that she was unable to give him more children. In medieval Europe the purpose of most noble women especially royalty was giving the kingdom heirs, including spare heirs considering the life expectancy and infant mortality at the time. In this case, Rhaegar was also obsessed with prophecy and if he was trying to recreate the three dragon heads, he may have been able to convince Elia and people closest to him about the need for another child by him.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. The Martells are a proud house who - as well as all the Dornishmen - see their women as equals. Elia did her duties as a wife by giving Rhaegar two healthy children. That is enough. Just look at Tywin - Aerys stole his heir and he was stuck with Tyrion and Cersei yet he never remarried although he most definitely could have. Rhaegar had two heirs of his own, and his royal father had another heir in Viserys. House Targaryen was pretty secure in the early 280s.

Why should anyone think Rhaegar is justified in wanting more children than the Seven decided he should have? Did King Aerys replace his sister-wife Rhaella with another woman or take another wife to have more chances to father trueborn children? No. If he didn't do that then the chances are about zero that Rhaegar had the right to ask or do that kind of thing.

The idea that the Martells or anyone in Rhaegar's circle bought mad ramblings about prophecy is also not that likely. Especially since this was apparently not a topic the Targaryens discussed outside the family. Rhaegar discussed it with Aemon and presumably with his parents who gave him the prophecy, but no one else as far as we know. Even his conversation with Elia in the vision doesn't seem to be a conversation among equals. Elia asks about mundane things and Rhaegar gets carried away by prophecy issues but he never really elaborates on the things he talks about.

Rhaegar also doesn't strike as a man who confided in other people. He made lonely decisions and was only close to a handful of people.

On 31.8.2017 at 7:06 AM, Ygrain said:

IMHO, based on what we see about the king's role in disapproved relationships: if the king finds out, you're screwed, because he forbids it and by continuing the affair, you would be committing treason.

Marrying or fucking a woman against the king's will isn't necessarily treason. But fucking/marrying Lyanna certainly would (and was) construed as treason because Aerys and his people interpreted the crowning as a sign of Rhaegar plotting with the Starks against Aerys. If the king says whatever you do with Lyanna is treason then you are a traitor, never mind what your actual intentions are.

On 31.8.2017 at 7:06 AM, Ygrain said:

But if you're out of reach, and no-one can find you, he cannot really forbid it, right?

Sure he can. He can declare you a traitor in absentia and even sentence you to death in absentia. Not presenting yourself to the king to answer for your crimes can be seen as proof of your treason. That's what Joffrey does to all the lords who don't do him homage after his coronation.

The idea that hiding somewhere is a good or acceptable excuse when you commit a crime is just silly. And taking Lyanna without the permission of House Stark or the king was a crime - even if it wouldn't have been seen as treason - never mind what Lyanna's view on the entire matter was. An actual second marriage would have been actual treason since the king decides who his children marry, not they themselves, and could thus have resulted in Rhaegar being burned alive.

On 31.8.2017 at 7:06 AM, Ygrain said:

And when the deed is done (e.g. marriage consummated, like with Egg's children), the king can throw a hissy fit but the union cannot be dissolved; especially if there is a visible proof in the form of advanced pregnancy.

Nope. The king certainly could take one or both spouses and torture them until they ask for an annulment. You do know that Cersei had Qyburn torture the Blue Bard until he said exactly what she wanted him to say? And Littlefinger seems to have done a similar thing with Marillion. 

Or he could execute one of the spouses to unmake the marriage. Or he could use his royal authority and have the Faith declare the marriage null and void because the Seven do not permit polygamy.

Aegon V chose to accept the marriage of Jaehaerys-Shaera because they were his children and he loved them despite the fact that he did not approve of their marriage. But he certainly could have dissolved that marriage just as he could have dissolved Duncan's morganatic marriage to Jenny of Oldstones.

In fact, the Laughing Storm and the Tullys and Tyrells rebelled against the king/complained about the whole thing because Aegon V failed to rule his family the way a proper king should have. He should have whipped them back into like so that they actually fulfilled their marriage contracts. It shouldn't have been that hard to make Jenny go away - Tywin got rid of Tysha, too, and he wasn't a king - and Jaehaerys-Shaera should have been even easier considering that this was an incestuous union (which technically is still condemned by the Faith) involving the minor children of the king. It would have been a dick move to have your children threatened with execution because they entered into an incestuous marriage but since the king did not approve of or permit that kind of thing he could certainly have decreed that beginning with Jaehaerys-Shaera incest is once again punishable as it was in the lands of the Andals before the Conquest.

On 31.8.2017 at 7:06 AM, Ygrain said:

So that's why, I think, ToJ. Rhaegar and Lyanna perhaps never expected the shitstorm escalating so badly because of Brandon's rash act, because without it, no death sentences would have been performed or requested. So, the main question is, why the hell Brandon thought that Rhaegar was in KL, when it was not his seat of power and his strained relationship with Aerys was not exactly a secret? 

Nope. Rhaegar had plotted against his royal father for years. And he and Lyanna actually were at Harrenhal and interacted not only with Aerys but also the Starks and Robert. Even if Lyanna was ignorant about the Rhaegar-Aerys issues - unlikely - Rhaegar would have known about his own issues with his father. Vice versa, Lyanna should have known what Robert and Brandon would do after they learned what Rhaegar did.

They cannot have been stupid enough to not realize what they did.

And the fact that they stayed away from court as long as they did proves that they could not go there for some reason. Else they would have gone there. Why shouldn't they? Their families were ripping each other apart. Unless we assume they all hated their respective families they actions make no sense whatsoever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

I see a wee problem with your fantasising about Rheagar not kidnapping Lyanna.

Rickard - in the Riverlands

Brandon - in the Riverlands

Ned - in the Vale (?)

Yet we are told that:

"There must be a Stark in Winterfell".

Even Lyanna - although I am not sure if girls count towards the "Stark in Winterfell" requeriment - is in the Riverlands

So only Benjen is left "to hold the fort" ...

 

Benjen held down the fort all through Robert's Rebellion though, so it's not really an issue.

The problem I have with Rhaegar not kidnapping Lyanna (unless it was an arrest on Aerys' orders) is that he should not need two KG with him. Sure the prince needs a little protection, but Ser Arthur should do. Between Artie and "it seems I must be a warrior" Rhaegar, I'd say everything would be fine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is actually a no-brainer because we don't know whether Lyarra Stark - Rickard Stark's wife - was still alive at that time. She was a Stark, too. And there is a chance that some of the other Stark cousins only died during the Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion.

It's a pretty good bet that she wasn't. GRRM had this worked out long before he came up with a name for Lyarra. If she'd been alive at the time he would have worked that in with a line about Ned remembering his mother's weeping when he left to fight the war. Look at the role he had Catelyn play when Robb went off to war. He could have had this hearken back to her goodmother's role. Then there's the need to mention Lyarra's death during or close after the war, to explain why Catelyn makes no mention of her goodmother's reaction to meeting little Robb, or how much help she was to a first-time mother far from home.

There's no particular mystery or controversy surrounding Lyarra and thus no reason to leave her out unless she wasn't there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Fixed that for you.

I'd be interested to see if anyone has made a good case for just how treasonous that is.

So Brandon wanted to kill Rhaegar. That sounds bad, but they live in a pretty violent society, with duels, trial by combat, etc. Brandon also seemed to have a very legitimate grievance. I very much doubt Brandon intended to execute Rhaegar, but instead to fight him to the death. Is that treason, assuming it was all done properly and honourably?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I forgot to mention in connection with Brandon's decision to go to KL: anyone familiar with GRRM's Worlorn (I hope that's the name)? There is a false message that the protagonist's old flame needs his help, which lures him somewhere he shouldn't have been, and all kinds of shit ensue. There is also a parallel of a warrior type getting the girl that the non-warrior desires, which we see repeated in the Brandon - Cat - LF triangle; it might be possible that the motive of a false message is repeated, as well, though perhaps by a different person with a different motivation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Benjen held down the fort all through Robert's Rebellion though, so it's not really an issue.

The issue here is that Romaine3 had Benjen witness the kidnapping.

I was making the point that IMO Benjen simply could not be there - i.e. outside Riverrun - at that time as he was (?) in the North doing the "Stark at Winterfell" act.

The thereabout of all other Starks at that time are - more or less - known, leaving only Benjen for the role.

Of course, if the "Stark at Winterfell" thingy is not that much of a dogma than my point with Benjen is just smoke on the water ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It's a pretty good bet that she wasn't. GRRM had this worked out long before he came up with a name for Lyarra. If she'd been alive at the time he would have worked that in with a line about Ned remembering his mother's weeping when he left to fight the war. Look at the role he had Catelyn play when Robb went off to war. He could have had this hearken back to her goodmother's role. Then there's the need to mention Lyarra's death during or close after the war, to explain why Catelyn makes no mention of her goodmother's reaction to meeting little Robb, or how much help she was to a first-time mother far from home.

There's no particular mystery or controversy surrounding Lyarra and thus no reason to leave her out unless she wasn't there.

Actually, things look as if George simply forgot Ned's mother when writing AGoT. I mean, they are rather often down in the crypts in the first two books were both Rickard and Lyarra Stark are entombed yet neither Ned nor any of his children ever think about her.

Usually you think of both parents when you stand at their tomb, don't you? But Ned does not. That can mean anything. Sure, Lyarra could already have been dead by the time of Harrenhal but she could just as well have only died during or after the Rebellion.

While we don't know anything about her everything is still possible. As is the fact that there might have still some Stark cousins around.

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

One thing I forgot to mention in connection with Brandon's decision to go to KL: anyone familiar with GRRM's Worlorn (I hope that's the name)? There is a false message that the protagonist's old flame needs his help, which lures him somewhere he shouldn't have been, and all kinds of shit ensue. There is also a parallel of a warrior type getting the girl that the non-warrior desires, which we see repeated in the Brandon - Cat - LF triangle; it might be possible that the motive of a false message is repeated, as well, though perhaps by a different person with a different motivation.

That is Dying of the Light. The character of Arkin Ruark is pretty much a version of the Littlefinger character, but the parallel of luring Dirk t'Larien to Worlorn in ASoIaF is the letter Lysa writes to Catelyn. It is the same thing. The reader and Dirk are both tricked into believing the protagonist received a message from a person he could trust but he actually did not. The even stronger parallel is the fact that Arkin Ruark actually slept with Gwen Delgado one night when she was sad and drunk - unlike Littlefinger, who confused Lysa with Catelyn in a similar scenario.

In the end, Arkin Ruark hangs himself. Could be that Littlefinger is going to be hanged, too, perhaps by Catelyn. Littlefinger has to learn that Catelyn never loved him and never slept with him. That is very important for his story. And only she can tell him that.

The love triangle in that story seems to have nothing to do with Brandon-Cat-Littlefinger. Gwen Delgado is more of a Lyanna-like character, wanting her man body and soul. Not to mention her parallel to Jenny of Oldstones in the fact that Dirk refers to her as 'his Jenny'. 

Jaan Vikary is more resembling of Rhaegar than anyone else. Nobody in this story is resembling Brandon Stark because no relevant character George ever created ever loved Brandon (aside from Barbrey Ryswell, who isn't important) - not Catelyn, not Lyanna, no one.

The idea that anyone lured Brandon with information about the whereabouts of Lyanna and Rhaegar is just baseless speculation at this point. We don't know the circumstances of the abduction as of yet but the chances are much higher that actual Stark men witnessed the abduction and then chose to inform Brandon than the idea that a third party sent Brandon a message containing both truths and lies.

And that Littlefinger did something of that sort is effectively impossible. He was still a youth at that time, and had been severely injured by Brandon not that long ago, and was subsequently shipped back to the Fingers. You don't get good information on the developments in the Riverlands on the Fingers nor did Littlefinger at this time have any pawns he could use to send Brandon a message he would believe. He sure as hell would take nothing seriously the dude from the Fingers he nearly killed would write him, no?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She was "taken" outside Harrenhal. She was quite wild. But it is unlikely she was all alone. We don't know what happened. But it is likely she went willingly. Possibly it was all her plan. Possibly it was also Rhaegar intent when he leaved KL. Probably the men and women with Lyanna were not her accomplice. They may have thought it an abduction. Some may have died or been wounded. Even if Lyanna said don't fight. Maybe they told the truth to Brandon. But he preferred the kidnapping version to the shame of Lyanna deserting her betrothal. Or didn't saw the difference. No one on Rhaegar's side cared to tell a different story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Could be that Littlefinger is going to be hanged, too, perhaps by Catelyn. Littlefinger has to learn that Catelyn never loved him and never slept with him. That is very important for his story. And only she can tell him that.

Sansa knows as well. Lysa told her

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

I'd be interested to see if anyone has made a good case for just how treasonous that is.

So Brandon wanted to kill Rhaegar. That sounds bad, but they live in a pretty violent society, with duels, trial by combat, etc. Brandon also seemed to have a very legitimate grievance. I very much doubt Brandon intended to execute Rhaegar, but instead to fight him to the death. Is that treason, assuming it was all done properly and honourably?

It's not treason to want to fight a proper duel, which does not have to be to the death. But it is treason to directly threaten the life of a member of the royal family.

Brandon did not ride into the Red Keep shouting for Rhaegar to face him in a duel. He rode into the Red Keep shouting for Rhaegar to "come out and die."  And he did this knowing that Rhaegar's father is completely insane! Everyone saw Aerys at Harrenhal. And there is no chance that there weren't very credible stories going from those at court back to friends and family at home about the king's crazy behavior, including burning people. The Wardens at least would have been keeping tabs on things, especially after seeing the king's condition at Harrrenhal, and Brandon's father was Warden of the North.

12 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

The issue here is that Romaine3 had Benjen witness the kidnapping.

I was making the point that IMO Benjen simply could not be there - i.e. outside Riverrun - at that time as he was (?) in the North doing the "Stark at Winterfell" act.

The thereabout of all other Starks at that time are - more or less - known, leaving only Benjen for the role.

Of course, if the "Stark at Winterfell" thingy is not that much of a dogma than my point with Benjen is just smoke on the water ...

Oh, okay. Sorry about that.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, things look as if George simply forgot Ned's mother when writing AGoT. I mean, they are rather often down in the crypts in the first two books were both Rickard and Lyarra Stark are entombed yet neither Ned nor any of his children ever think about her.

Usually you think of both parents when you stand at their tomb, don't you? But Ned does not. That can mean anything. Sure, Lyarra could already have been dead by the time of Harrenhal but she could just as well have only died during or after the Rebellion.

While we don't know anything about her everything is still possible. As is the fact that there might have still some Stark cousins around.

Ned and the kids are standing in front of the statues. Ned's mother has no statue. Depending on when she died, she may even be interred in a different part of the crypts than Rickard, Brandon, and Lyanna are. Seems like the Stark kings and Lords are in the VIP section, and everyone else goes lower. That kind of emphasizes how big a deal it is that Ned gave his siblings statues.

There's no reason the children would think of a grandmother they never knew. And if she'd been dead for a long time, Ned might not think of her often himself. We also have to take into account of course that Ned can't think of too much or he'd give things away that the author didn't want us to know yet.

I don't think GRRM forgot about Ned's mother. He mentioned that her mother was a Flint and that's where Bran got his climbing ability. I think he maybe forgot to give her a name for a long time, but that's probably because she was not a part of the story, either in the series proper or in the events leading up to it. Poor Lyarra, her only purpose seems to have been to pop out kids for Rickard. Pretty typical for a medieval lady but still a little sad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Sansa knows as well. Lysa told her

But is he going to believe a story told by Sansa with mad Lysa as a source? Probably not. Not to mention that the whole thing is not necessarily going to convince Littlefinger that Catelyn never loved him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 31/08/2017 at 4:18 AM, Romaine3 said:

Lots of good ideas here!

I'm going to borrow a few and combine them. If Lyanna really was the Knight of the Laughingtree at Harrenhall, and that is where she and Rhaegar fell in love, would it be possible that someone sneaky witnessed their interactions?

   If indeed Lyanna Stark was the Knight of the LT then you might be right and they probably set guards to follow her wherever she went to stop her from breaking any betrothal arrangements. 

 

On 01/09/2017 at 5:36 PM, Lord Varys said:

Marrying or fucking a woman against the king's will isn't necessarily treason. But fucking/marrying Lyanna certainly would (and was) construed as treason because Aerys and his people interpreted the crowning as a sign of Rhaegar plotting with the Starks against Aerys. If the king says whatever you do with Lyanna is treason then you are a traitor, never mind what your actual intentions are.

   

 Why you are right about the King's right to marry his own children, especially his first born and future King, However, I never heard that the King declared both the Starks and his son Rhaegar traitors. After he burnt Rickard Stark alive and had his son Brandon strangled himself, he declared the Starks and Baretheons traitors and demanded that Jon Arryn gave Ned and Robert away to him so they could be killed. He did not demand Robert, Edward and Rhaegar's heads! If the Mad King, in fact, thought Rhaegar plotted something with the Starks he would have declared his Crown Prince a traitor which he did not. Also, Prince Rhaegar became the head Commander of the Lords defending the Mad King's Kingdom against Robert Baratheon which makes no sense if the King saw him plotting with the Starks.

   The reason Prince Rhaegar did not go directly to King's Landing and never send ravens to the lords telling that Lyanna went with him willingly, that he did not kidnap her and that they married (if they did - not known yet) is because he would have lost Dorne. If the Mad King saw Rhaegar plotting with the Starks he would never, ever have allowed his first born to become the Head Commander of his defenses against Robert's Rebellion.  

   Also, history and rightful things are written and done by the victors and the one holding the power. Had Prince Rhaegar defeated Robert at the Trident then he would have come back to King's Landing with a big army and would have done one of two things. 1) Demanded that the Mad KIng legitimized Lyanna as his second wife in court to all to see and also by writtings and then taken both his wives and his children to Dragonstone by threatening the Mad King with deposal if he refused. 2) If the King, even so, refused, deposed him, which would be easy considering the Lords already knew the King's madness; legitimized Lyanna himself; if Ned still alive pardoned him and made him Warden of the North and called for a Great Council to legitimize his father deposal. 

   Anyway I never read in the books that the Mad King declared his first born a traitor. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

Why you are right about the King's right to marry his own children, especially his first born and future King, However, I never heard that the King declared both the Starks and his son Rhaegar traitors. After he burnt Rickard Stark alive and had his son Brandon strangled himself, he declared the Starks and Baretheons traitors and demanded that Jon Arryn gave Ned and Robert away to him so they could be killed. He did not demand Robert, Edward and Rhaegar's heads! If the Mad King, in fact, thought Rhaegar plotted something with the Starks he would have declared his Crown Prince a traitor which he did not. Also, Prince Rhaegar became the head Commander of the Lords defending the Mad King's Kingdom against Robert Baratheon which makes no sense if the King saw him plotting with the Starks.

Oh, the thing here is somewhat more complex.

I actually think that Aerys did declare Rhaegar and Lyanna traitors and called for their heads, too (or at least their arrest), and that's why they went underground. We don't know why they did not go to KL as soon as their learned about the arrest of the Starks and the beginning of the war.

We also don't really know why Aerys II - a man who just recently, at Harrenhal, thought his son and heir was plotting against him with the Starks - would suddenly come to the defense of that very son when Brandon Stark threatened him. Why should Aerys defend a son who was plotting against him? A son he was actually afraid of.

In addition, it is completely unclear what the reasoning behind the execution of Brandon, his companions, Lord Rickard, and the fathers of the companions was. Not to mention the command to Jon Arryn to also execute Ned and Robert. Brandon may have been accused of threatening the life of the Prince of Dragonstone but what about his companions, their fathers, and Lord Rickard? The companions were there, sure, but they didn't threat anyone, presumably, and neither did their fathers and most definitely not Lord Rickard.

Why was there a trial at all? Didn't the king himself hear the threat and thus actually know for a fact that Brandon was guilty? Just as Robb knew the Greatjon was committing treason and thus technically deserved to die when he drew steel against his liege lord's son in the great hall of Winterfell. You don't need to conduct a trial to find out the truth about something you heard with your own ears or saw with your own eyes.

But we do know that Aerys conducted a trial against Lord Rickard which lead to the man demanding a trial-by-combat. What was Lord Rickard accused of? Certainly not threatening the life of the Prince of Dragonstone...

One ignores those questions rather easily because Aerys was mad. But was he mad enough not to realize that executing men who obviously had nothing to do with Brandon's threat against Rhaegar was not exactly helping his agenda here? What on earth had Robert to do with Brandon?

Does it make sense that Aerys would risk the wrath of not just one great house - the Starks - but two or even three by demanding Ned and Robert's heads in addition to the lives of Rickard and Brandon?

No, it doesn't make all that much sense. Especially not in light of the insane leniency Aerys showed Tywin. He feared the man wanted to kill him since Duskendale but he never moved against him, never burned him alive. 

So the idea there is that Aerys interpreted the abduction of Lyanna (perhaps in combination with news about their wedding, perhaps not) as proof that this Rhaegar-Stark conspiracy now began in earnest. Rhaegar taking Lyanna was the sign to start a broad uprising against King Aerys II. Brandon showing up at court was also part of that plot - at least in Aerys' mind - perhaps some sort of clever diversion or distraction, trying to convince the king that the Starks and Rhaegar were not, in fact, working together. That way they would lure the king into a trap.

Brandon didn't understand what the madman wanted from him, and refused to confess or admit that he was working with Rhaegar. After all, he was furious about the whole abduction thing. Aerys kept Brandon and his companions as hostages to summon Lord Rickard (and other men involved in the 'conspiracy' to court) to crush this rebellion before it could spread. When Rickard also did not confess the king got angrier and angrier, eventually leading to the executions. Being sure that Rickard's second son and cousin Robert must also be involved in that conspiracy Aerys also demanded the execution of these two. To crush a rebellion he thought was already happening or about to happen.

Rhaegar would have been the first victim of Aerys' wrath had he and Lyanna not been able to get away in time, perhaps because they were warned by some friends.

Now, when Robert's Rebellion finally began Aerys eventually came to realize that he had been mistaken. Rhaegar was not with the rebels nor leading any other armies against the king. Instead, the rebels were convincingly calling for Rhaegar's head, too. In combination with Rhaegar's friends - Connington and Mooton - who returned to court this led to Aerys finally realizing he had misjudged his son. He effectively tried to reconcile with him when he tried to make him Hand after he fired Merryweather and then chose Connington instead.

As of yet that's just a hypothetical scenario but it is more likely than any other idea I've read so far, especially since we know that Aerys actually feared that Rhaegar could rise in rebellion against him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/1/2017 at 1:49 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Fixed that for you.

its just that even though this is teh real reason for the war, when everyone, especially robert baratheon looks back on it, they look beyond aerys killing rickard and brandon, to rhaegar crowning lyanna at harrenhal, then running off with her a year later. and for robert, thats the reason for the war, rhaegar ran off with the woman robert wanted to marry. he made it into a personal grudge between himself and rhaegar, and then extended it to all targaryens, regardless of level of involvement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...