Pain is real: Physicality in Game of Thrones

[Ashes Of Westeros]

Today I stumbled upon an article (can't find it anymore) touching upon the problem of bodies in GoT. GoT used to be a very physical show, not only because of nudity, but because characters had real bodies and what happened to them was very important for the story. When a character got hurt or wounded, the wound could get infected and could kill them (Drogo's case). Dany 's pregnancy and possible barrenness was a big part of her arc. Severe burns shaped The Hound's personality. Sansa getting her first period was a big deal that makes her in society's view a heir-producing machine. Shereen's grayscale makes her isolated and sad child. Jaime's cut of hand... The bodies are real, what happens to them is beyond characters' control most of the time, but it greatly affects their lives. And the physicality was one of the things that made the show so real.

But in the late seasons the real bodies don't exist, they are ignored. I think it started from s6, when Jon was resurrected and stayed the same person. Arya has grown up, but we never see her getting period or experiencing anything related to womanhood (like being seen as a sexual object or smth). Jorah's greyscale is cured without any side effects. Cersei' s pregnancy is very conveniently non-visible, it's brought to light only when necessary. And her hair never grow. The suicide squad in s7 shows no signs of hypothermia etc etc. That would be accepted as a dramatic convention, but GoT used to have different rules.

What are your thoughts?

[mcchickyn]

I think you raise some very interesting points, and would love to hear other people's responses. 

I don't have much to add other than I think Cersei is meant to be embracing the hair and keeping it short on purpose, otherwise her hair would be shoulder length at this point since it's been months. Also it makes sense seeing as her clothing has become less feminine the last two seasons, she hasn't been wearing any dresses/gowns resembling her Season 1-5 attire. 

[Kajjo]

9 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

But in the late seasons the real bodies don't exist, they are ignored. I think it started from s6

Yes, less sex, less nudity, less graphical violence, less logic, less deepness. GoT deteriorated without GRRM writing the script. GoT got mainstream now.

All these little provocating sexual details in the first three seasons... lifting a skirt to show nudity, homosexual sex, incest banging ...  what a great show. Now it is mostly the gripping story rather than provocation. More thought than explicity.

Arya is not yet grown up, though. Difficult to clearly deduce how many years went by, but when she started 9-yearold and Sansa got her first period with 13, there is still some room for Arya. But it's time, you are right. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, less sex, less nudity, less graphical violence, less logic, less deepness. GoT deteriorated without GRRM writing the script. GoT got mainstream now.

All these little provocating sexual details in the first three seasons... lifting a skirt to show nudity, homosexual sex, incest banging ...  what a great show. Now it is mostly the gripping story rather than provocation. More thought than explicity.

Arya is not yet grown up, though. Difficult to clearly deduce how many years went by, but when she started 9-yearold and Sansa got her first period with 13, there is still some room for Arya. But it's time, you are right. 

I'm not focusing on nudity only. I just notice that despite being a fantasy, GoT was about real people with real mental and physical pains and sufferings. That is why it was so relatable. 

[Cridefea]

13 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Today I stumbled upon an article (can't find it anymore) touching upon the problem of bodies in GoT. GoT used to be a very physical show, not only because of nudity, but because characters had real bodies and what happened to them was very important for the story. When a character got hurt or wounded, the wound could get infected and could kill them (Drogo's case). Dany 's pregnancy and possible barrenness was a big part of her arc. Severe burns shaped The Hound's personality. Sansa getting her first period was a big deal that makes her in society's view a heir-producing machine. Shereen's grayscale makes her isolated and sad child. Jaime's cut of hand... The bodies are real, what happens to them is beyond characters' control most of the time, but it greatly affects their lives. And the physicality was one of the things that made the show so real.

But in the late seasons the real bodies don't exist, they are ignored. I think it started from s6, when Jon was resurrected and stayed the same person. Arya has grown up, but we never see her getting period or experiencing anything related to womanhood (like being seen as a sexual object or smth). Jorah's greyscale is cured without any side effects. Cersei' s pregnancy is very conveniently non-visible, it's brought to light only when necessary. And her hair never grow. The suicide squad in s7 shows no signs of hypothermia etc etc. That would be accepted as a dramatic convention, but GoT used to have different rules.

What are your thoughts?

yes I agree with you. I don't know when it started, maybe you're right and it was with Jon. Probably it changed even the proximity and the physical contact, not sure. And I also think that it's connected to the emotional part. Many characters controls their emotions now, and it compromises their corporeity.

In countertrend: Brienne. And I'm glad she is

[Lady Fevre Dream]

30 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I'm not focusing on nudity only. I just notice that despite being a fantasy, GoT was about real people with real mental and physical pains and sufferings. That is why it was so relatable. 

The thread title made me think about how even physical pain itself in this show is just about a non existent character.  I follow the premise of your OP, but the loss of the reality of pain in general, not just each characters' issues with it, is what strikes me.  Remember Ned laid up in season 1 just from a spear stab from anonymous Lannister soldier number 3 iirc in that confrontation with Jaime?  That played a big part in the story, Ned's injury, being out of it for awhile not to mention needing pain meds, still limping around The Red Keep while Robert went hunting.  Hell, that leg injury kept Ned himself from going off after the Mountain for pillaging the Riverlands, he had to send Beric and company instead.  That was pain and injury playing a massive part in the story. 

But yes, by season 6, all of that is gone.  The problem isn't that Arya hasn't been shown getting her period, the problem is Arya hopped up from what should have been a gutting, almost a disembowelment much quicker than The Ned from his leg injury.  Ned never did recover from his leg injury.  As far as Arya and the period, though, that is the difference in the story lines of the sister.  Sansa was stuck waiting on that period to be considered marriageable, but that hasn't much been Arya's story.  I would guess she's had it by now.  But the insta-cure for Arya's gutting shows that injuries, minus death (unless your JonnyAegon), aren't really a worry any more I guess.  And, it's silly.  

 

 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

45 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Remember Ned laid up in season 1 just from a spear stab from anonymous Lannister soldier number 3 iirc in that confrontation with Jaime?  That played a big part in the story, Ned's injury, being out of it for awhile not to mention needing pain meds, still limping around The Red Keep while Robert went hunting.  Hell, that leg injury kept Ned himself from going off after the Mountain for pillaging the Riverlands, he had to send Beric and company instead.  That was pain and injury playing a massive part in the story. 

I totally forgot about Ned's leg! You are right.

Also Jaime's hand being cut was a massive turn point in the story. He almost died from the infection! 

The Hound almost died from his wounds and his healing, which obviously took months (compare to Arya's mentioned above).

53 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

As far as Arya and the period, though, that is the difference in the story lines of the sister.  Sansa was stuck waiting on that period to be considered marriageable, but that hasn't much been Arya's story.

I see the point. When Sansa got her first period she dreaded it, because by that time she hated Joff and didn't want to marry him. The scene in the show was pretty dramatic as Sansa and Shae tried to conceal it. But a human body is a human body, so there nothing you can do.

For Arya being a little girl was an advantage, b/c she could disguise herself as a boy (see the exchange with Tywin). But it was a temporary state of affairs as she grows. We don't know how much time has passed, but she's a teen know. And her body is basically non-existent,  it doesn't have any functions, it doesn't feel pain (the stabbing mentioned).

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

You forgot how Theon can get kneed in the crotch and not feel a thing all because he was castrated, even though in season 4 when Brienne got kicked in the crotch by the Hound it hurt like hell for her.

The show has become your standard mass entertainment mindless action fare.  It's no different from the Transformers franchise.

[Mister Stoneheart]

The physical has now become cartoonish.  Arya is stabbed over and over again and yet manages to make it back to safety.

Theon is kicked in his pelvis (sans penis) and reacts as if there's no pain.  That's still bone, plus mangled tissue.

Thoros is mauled by a bear, savagely, but he's up and standing later, drinking, and only later dies of hypothermia because a character is needed to die to throw some levity on the situation (Tormund really should have bitten the bullet here).

[SuperMario]

2 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I'm not focusing on nudity only. I just notice that despite being a fantasy, GoT was about real people with real mental and physical pains and sufferings. That is why it was so relatable. 

You bring up some good points. Remember in season 1 with Ned getting stabbed while fighting Jaime. Ned limped around with a cane for the remainder of his time. If that would have happened in the later seasons, by the next episode Ned would have been walking fine with no hint of any issues.

I think all the examples you bring up can be traced to two underlying issues the showrunners created - too much plot armor and rapid pace storytelling. Arya should have died from her stab wounds to the gut while lying in a sewer. Hell, Areo died almost immediately from a tiny stabbing in the upper back. In all likelihood, Jon would have died in that frozen lake, yet he comes out and is healthy within a day. The showrunners put the main characters in tense situations making you think they will get seriously hurt or die. But they give them too much plot armor so that they always end up ok. And it makes those scenes even worse because it's not realistic. I'm not saying characters can't get in trouble or hurt, but you can't constantly have them in situations where they should die but somehow end up better than they were.

The second aspect is that they are speeding up the story, so they just skip ahead with anything that doesn't hit the main plot points. Jon lying in a bed for a while with hypothermia or Arya limping around with a gut wound gets in the way of the showrunners plot points they want to hit. How can Arya kill Walder Frey if she is all fucked up? So they just pretend like her wounds were never bad and poof, she kills Walder Frey.

It ultimately all boils down to lazy storytelling.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

8 hours ago, Mister Stoneheart said:

Theon is kicked in his pelvis (sans penis) and reacts as if there's no pain.  That's still bone, plus mangled tissue.

Indeed. Though I think that Theon is the most believable character and acts pretty consistent with his physical and emotional suffering.

[Daske]

 

On ‎30‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 5:08 AM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Today I stumbled upon an article (can't find it anymore) touching upon the problem of bodies in GoT. GoT used to be a very physical show, not only because of nudity, but because characters had real bodies and what happened to them was very important for the story. When a character got hurt or wounded, the wound could get infected and could kill them (Drogo's case). Dany 's pregnancy and possible barrenness was a big part of her arc. Severe burns shaped The Hound's personality. Sansa getting her first period was a big deal that makes her in society's view a heir-producing machine. Shereen's grayscale makes her isolated and sad child. Jaime's cut of hand... The bodies are real, what happens to them is beyond characters' control most of the time, but it greatly affects their lives. And the physicality was one of the things that made the show so real.

But in the late seasons the real bodies don't exist, they are ignored. I think it started from s6, when Jon was resurrected and stayed the same person. Arya has grown up, but we never see her getting period or experiencing anything related to womanhood (like being seen as a sexual object or smth). Jorah's greyscale is cured without any side effects. Cersei' s pregnancy is very conveniently non-visible, it's brought to light only when necessary. And her hair never grow. The suicide squad in s7 shows no signs of hypothermia etc etc. That would be accepted as a dramatic convention, but GoT used to have different rules.

What are your thoughts?

Mention of Arya's period is really not something that needs to be the show. It was important in Sansa's story though.

Cersei's pregnancy is not visible yet, that's fine. If early it wouldn't necessarily be. And it may not even be true.

Jorah's greyscale I very much agree, at the least he should have had scarred tissue (like the Hound's face) over his body. You can scar yourself picking off a little scab, so yeah that not right. That would only have required one shot of him in body make-up really, so a bit silly they didn't bother. If I was really reaching then maybe the fact that we don't really know for sure how it would look once healed because it's not something anyone has seen for real, and there are hints it has some magical component.

Although also silly, I'm of a mind to let the Theon one go. We (thankfully) don't know how much nerve damage Theon suffered 'down there'. That wasn't a skilled surgeon doing the operation! Conversely this scene did show 'real' physicality. The Ironborn guy was not fit and they showed him visibly knackered, hands on knees after the initial punch-up. Which is why he only had the energy left for a couple of weak balls shots. And Theon really looked messed up at the end of it too.

The hyperthermia issue doesn't bother me because I suspended disbelief on that way back when with the wildlings. I don't think Jon's team would be much different from what we would expect from a wildling raiding/hunting party, and no one questions their ability to live and move around out there (or even climb up titanic ice walls). You can say they would be more used to it, and it would certainly help but I don't think that in itself would protect someone from hypothermia. Sansa survived her trip with Theon in the snow too, so I've already accepted that humans are hardier in the cold in this world.

The one I agree wholeheartedly they did get wrong was Arya's injuries. They would be fatal most of the time. I can accept her being very lucky and survive, but it would take ages to heal and be painful to move for a vey long time even without the risk of serious infection. It just wasn't realistic at all.

Overall, although you mention good comparisons from earlier seasons I think it's fair that those character-shaping moments were important to happen at that time, earlier on so that their effect had time to be felt and developed. For example, if the Hound was burned by his brother last episode rather than pre-story it would be meaningless with just 6 or 7 hours to go. Same with Jaime's hand.

That said, I think recent examples still exist of less important damage... Thoros is killed by earlier injuries/booze/cold (I don't see why this is unrealistic, rather the opposite, it's what would have happened if he initially survived the attack). Drogon physically knocked out of the sky (almost) by a single arrow to the shoulder. We see Jon's very scarred body showing his physical trials. We see the tangible aftermath of when dragonfire turns people to ash. They showed Gendry completely spent when running back. I thought the way Wun Wun was physically worn down death by a thousand cuts was done pretty well too, he was a gonna even without the coup de grace.

Also, I think you are missing probably one of the most powerful examples in the whole show... when Sansa confronts Littlefinger and explains to him in some detail what the reality of the actual physical as well as mental trauma she endured because of his actions.

So I think it's there in places, just not front and centre as much because there are other things to focus on. And at the end of the day this is a fantasy series and people do get away with questionable feats and escape otherwise fatal situations because that's all part of the fun.

23 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, less sex, less nudity, less graphical violence, less logic, less deepness. GoT deteriorated without GRRM writing the script. GoT got mainstream now.

All these little provocating sexual details in the first three seasons... lifting a skirt to show nudity, homosexual sex, incest banging ...  what a great show. Now it is mostly the gripping story rather than provocation. More thought than explicity.

In the earlier seasons, too much sex, nudity and violence (read torture porn) was a big part of what those knocking the show were complaining about. They can't win!

 

[Kajjo]

1 hour ago, Daske said:

In the earlier seasons, too much sex, nudity and violence (read torture porn) was a big part of what those knocking the show were complaining about. They can't win!

They did win, obviously. GoT is a lot more tame now than in the earlier seasons. Don't you agree?

I enjoyed the explicity of the early seasons.

[Daske]

18 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

They did win, obviously. GoT is a lot more tame now than in the earlier seasons. Don't you agree?

I enjoyed the explicity of the early seasons.

I meant the showrunners can't win. Whichever way they go they will get criticised.

Whether it's there or not doesn't bother me one way or the other. I think many feel that Jon's butt-cheeks were the MVP of the season though.

 

[Kajjo]

17 minutes ago, Daske said:

I meant the showrunners can't win. Whichever way they go they will get criticised.

Ah, sorry, didn't understand that. You are right!

 

17 minutes ago, Daske said:

Whether it's there or not doesn't bother me one way or the other.

I enjoyed the explicity and that it deviated from mainstream. This balance of provocation and presenting sex, nudity and violence as normalcy in the depicted medieval world. That made GoT special in seasons 1-4. This little, short scenes that flavored a whole episode.

 

19 minutes ago, Daske said:

I think many feel that Jon's butt-cheeks were the MVP of the season though.

Sorry, "mvp"? Seeing Jon's butt is nothing special, though, is it? Are butts provocative in US? They are certainly not here. in Europe.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

4 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

 

Sorry, "mvp"? Seeing Jon's butt is nothing special, though, is it? Are butts provocative in US? They are certainly not here. in Europe.

Butts are considered more provocative here than in good ol' Europe. I watch "Borgia" (the German-French-Italian version) and I can see the difference: the latter offers much more graphic depiction of sex, disease, death etc. 

[Kajjo]

19 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Butts are considered more provocative here than in good ol' Europe.

Hm, showing naked butts is no problem here. Not at all. Showing the back side is always harmless, at all times of the day. 

[Megorova]

On 30.08.2017 at 7:08 AM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

when Jon was resurrected and stayed the same person.

Were you expecting that he will become someone else?

Jesus Christ and his resurrected uncle Lazarus also stayed same people as they were before they died.

Quote

Arya has grown up, but we never see her getting period or experiencing anything related to womanhood (like being seen as a sexual object or smth).

Sansa getting her first period was importan milestone, because after she became capable of bearing kids, they were going to marry her with Joffrey. All other female's periods are irrelevant to plot development. Other irrelevant information also stays off screen. For example I was wondering whether Brienne is a virgin, whether Jaime ever had sex with anyone else exsept Cersei, whether Dany didn't became pregnant from Daario because she was using protection or is it because he's sterile, and so on. But we will never know 

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Jorah's greyscale is cured without any side effects.

He wasn't cured in one day. Between night when Sam treated him, and day when he was examined by archmaester, at least several days passed. There was no remaining side effects, because at that stage, illness haven't affected yet nothing except Jorah's skin. Also after 'scales' were surgically removed, his skin afterwards looked as if though it was covered with burns and deep scars.

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Cersei' s pregnancy is very conveniently non-visible, it's brought to light only when necessary.

So what? My sister's pregnancy became visible when she was 5+ month pregnant. My coworker's belly started to grow only when she was in her 7th month. Cersei is 2 maximum 4 months pregnant. Also she's wearing dark clothes, and this makes her look thinner.

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And her hair never grow.

Didn't it ever occured to you that she cuts it?

She's like a main character in "Working girl" movie. After wearing her hair short, she realised that like this she looks more serious. So she decided to keep it short.

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The suicide squad in s7 shows no signs of hypothermia etc etc.

Well, they are aliens. Maybe hypothermia on Planetos isn't as easily contracted as on Earth. Also those people are less vulnerable than earthlings. For example they can survive thru 10 or even 100 years long winter. Not to mention that during Long Night there was no sun at all, but they still survived. Different planet, different health conditions.

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What are your thoughts?

Stop nitpicking.

If you will be criticizing every little thing, you won't be able to fully enjoy the show.