Football - City Bid the Wrong Type of Sterling

[Calibandar]

16 hours ago, Notone said:

I think somewhere Cruyff is spinning in his grave. The Netherlands have been a European Power House in football for well over 40 years. To place them below England on that list is pretty close to an insult imo.

While I often mock my Dutch friends for their failure to actually win a World Cup (I name that as a sign of the impending apocalpyse, the Dutch actually winning a WC), they came awfully close a few times. They were the best team in the 70s with their golden generation around Cruyff and Neeskens, and made it to the WC final twice (in Germany 1974, and in Argentina 1978) and lost both times to the hosts. The 1980s had another very strong Dutch generation of players, which actually resulted in silverware with the victory at the Euros 1988. Players from that generation included Rijkaard, Gulllit and van Basten. The next generation was a bit weaker, but still quite strong, with players like Davids, Seedorf, Kluivert, van Nistelrooy and van Persie. Now this is arguably the first real generation of Dutch footballers in over 40 years, that is utterly useless, and that's why the Dutch still need to rely heavily on an aging Robben (who is still a class player). While the English FA had produced teams that were not as good as the Dutchies. Spain has only emerged as a real powerhouse during the 2000s.

Well said. Including your assessment of the current generation as the first utterly useless one in 40 years.

15 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Australia plays in Asia because they wanted to and transferred their membership to the Asian Confederation.

And yes, Australia likely would have faced South America's 5th placed team...and almost certainly would lose, like they did multiple times.

 

I've been reading up a bit on the topic and I see indeed that Australia asked for the transfer in part because they wanted more competition, and also because it is an easier road to the world cup for them. Interesting.

14 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

They were a super power of world football for a very long time, but the past decade has seen a pretty steep decline in their talent base IMO despite containing some successes (if you can call the 2010 WC a success after the way they "played" to the final).  If you want to go back to 1970-2000 then the Russians would be a super power football team too, despite drifting into irrelevance since.

 

You're right to say that the talent base of the Dutch team now looks pretty depleted and the outlook is dire.It is certainly a daily topic of discussion in our country. On the other hand it's not right to put a country like England above Holland given both the actual results and footballers produced the last 40 years. Right now, yes I'd put them above Holland. But even recently, the Dutch were 3rd in World Cup 2014 and 2nd in World Cup 2010, results England can only dream of. Likewise I think Portugal should also be ahead of England any such assessment. Also, even if you exclude the 70's and 80's Dutch teams, look at Holland and England as of 2000. In 1998 Holland was in the WC semi final, beaten in extra time by Ronaldo's Brazil. In 2000 it was the best team at EC 2000. If you go from 2000 to 2015, you cannot reasonably conclude that England hasn't been a tier below Holland for that period. There were no Robbens, Sneijders, van Persies in England's teams the last 15 years and certainly not all in the same generation. 

12 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Ben Woodburn's cross created Wales' opening goal.  Rashford who?

That's Lord Rashford to you. He will be responsible for many shed tears in the Kop in years to come.

[Jordan La Cabra]

13 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Ben Woodburn's cross created Wales' opening goal.  

The only shame is that Ben Woodburn will go back to Liverpool being lucky to make a match day squad. Maybe he'll play in the opening round of the League Cup.

After playing such a massive part in Wales' two victories, it would be great for him to kick on for his club. But with the wealth of options in Liverpool's attack, the chances to play will be few and far between. 

Perhaps a loan move would have been good for him, this season. 

[baxus]

14 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I look at the current crop of Serbian players and consider them a very strong team. The likes of Ivanovic, Matic, Kolorov, Mitrovic etc are all very good players. In their qualifying group, take Gareth Bale out of Wales and Serbia have the best squad, by far.

I do see what you mean, though. It can be very difficult for 'smaller' national teams to make their mark on a competition. Looking back on NI qualifying for the Euros, as we had never qualified before, any game there was a success, even if we lost. So getting to the knock out stages was seen as a massive success here. If we somehow get to the World Cup, just being there will be success enough. Say, then, we make the next Euros and get knocked out at the group stage or the first round of knock outs, it won't be looked upon as a success anymore. It will just be seen as turning up to get knocked out. The allure of just qualifying alone will start to fade.

It's a weird set up in Northern Ireland, due to the political issues, but the Catholics and nationalists of our country actually support ROI as opposed to the NI team. Some of my friends support ROI over NI despite being born and bred in NI. In fact, I am watching the game with one right now. 

ROI qualify for tournaments quite regularly, so despite them reaching the same stage in the last Euros as NI did, their fans didn't look at it as a success, just another case of turning up and getting knocked out, which is similar to what you are saying about Serbia. But then again, even if it is only the three group games, as someone who has only seen their nation qualifying for one international tournament, I can assure you it felt a lot better watching the Euros with NI in it as opposed to watching all the previous tournaments without them competing.

Ivanovic and Kolarov are over 30 and as such are past their prime and you never know which Mitrovic will turn up - the one that can score a hat-trick or the one that will get sent off within first 5 minutes of the match. Matic and Tadic are the only ones who are actually at their prime right now. It is a good enough squad to get to the World Cup, though there's still at least one match before that's guaranteed but we've had much better squads that I can remember, and I'm 34 which is not that old.  

The thing with catholic people in Northern Ireland supporting Republic of Ireland is pretty similar with Serbian people in Bosnia - vast majority of them support Serbia and watch those matches instead of Bosnia, despite being born and raised in Bosnia. Thankfully, the separatists are not that active but I'm pretty sure that if there was a referendum on Serbian part of Bosnia leaving Bosnia and uniting with Serbia it would pass easily.

And I don't mind our team getting knocked out of the World Cup or Euros early, I mind our team not performing at their best. If they gave it their all and were simply outplayed I'd congratulate them even if they lost.

[Consigliere]

Reports surfacing that contract talks between Can and Liverpool have hit an impasse due to Can insisting on a release clause.

And Leicester's replacement for Drinkwater, Adrien Silva, will not be eligible to play for the club until January. FIFA rejected Leicester's application to register the player saying they missed the deadline by 14 seconds. Leicester are in the process of appealing.

[ljkeane]

18 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Reports surfacing that contract talks between Can and Liverpool have hit an impasse due to Can insisting on a release clause.

It's a bit of an odd situation for Liverpool. Can's been really good in a couple of games this year but he's fairly inconsistent and he's currently playing a position he's behind Coutinho and Lallana in the pecking order for when they're back. He's the kind of player it'd be good to have in the squad but with Keita coming next summer we probably don't need him.

Given how this summer's gone in the transfer window you can see why the club would want a general policy of no release clauses in contracts and while losing Can for nothing isn't ideal he's probably not important enough to make an exception for.

ETA:

35 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

The only shame is that Ben Woodburn will go back to Liverpool being lucky to make a match day squad. Maybe he'll play in the opening round of the League Cup.

After playing such a massive part in Wales' two victories, it would be great for him to kick on for his club. But with the wealth of options in Liverpool's attack, the chances to play will be few and far between. 

Perhaps a loan move would have been good for him, this season. 

I think he'll get a reasonable amount of football for a 17 year old. They seem to really rate him at Liverpool, he got 9 games last year and I think he's going to play in most cup games plus he's likely to get chances in weeks with European games.

If he was a bit older it might be worth looking for more game time but at his age around 5-15 senior games or so for Liverpool is good for his development.

It's someone like Ryan Kent, who looked really good in preseason, it's looking really tough for. Hopefully he has a good season in Germany.

[Jordan La Cabra]

11 minutes ago, baxus said:

Ivanovic and Kolarov are over 30 and as such are past their prime and you never know which Mitrovic will turn up - the one that can score a hat-trick or the one that will get sent off within first 5 minutes of the match. Matic and Tadic are the only ones who are actually at their prime right now. It is a good enough squad to get to the World Cup, though there's still at least one match before that's guaranteed but we've had much better squads that I can remember, and I'm 34 which is not that old.  

The thing with catholic people in Northern Ireland supporting Republic of Ireland is pretty similar with Serbian people in Bosnia - vast majority of them support Serbia and watch those matches instead of Bosnia, despite being born and raised in Bosnia. Thankfully, the separatists are not that active but I'm pretty sure that if there was a referendum on Serbian part of Bosnia leaving Bosnia and uniting with Serbia it would pass easily.

And I don't mind our team getting knocked out of the World Cup or Euros early, I mind our team not performing at their best. If they gave it their all and were simply outplayed I'd congratulate them even if they lost.

After last night, Serbia look pretty good for automatic qualification. Wales look most likely for the second place in that group. At the moment, though, they are 9th in the play off table, so would be the second placed team missing out on the play offs.

Ah, a not so similar situation with polictis and football, then. I'm afraid that if a referendum was called on Northern Ireland leaving the UK that it would be a closely run contest. That would be the first stage in us joining up with the Republic and making Ireland one whole county, which I really wouldn't like, despite the fact it may make out football team better!

It has proven to be extremely difficult for teams to perform to the levels fans expect of them at international finals. England have been the prime example of that. They qualify with relative ease for the tournaments then end up going out after limp performances in the finals. 

Part of the problem is how little preparation these teams have when it comes up to facing 'stronger' nations. Look at Serbia and England, for examples, I think Wales may have been the top seeded team in Serbia's qualification group, but Serbia are just as strong, if not stronger than the teams in their group and England are definitely stronger than the teams in their group. The only times prior to a finals that these nations will play nations stronger than them will be in friendlies, which hardly count for anything. 

It is no surprise, then, that we often see these teams get knocked out after an underwhelming showing at a international tournament.

[The Winged Shadow]

19 hours ago, Calibandar said:

Looking at the WC qualifying groups, there are once again a few things that stand out to me in the context of how relatively difficult it is for a European team to qualify. To think there are still people who say Europe is over represented.

Why is Australia lobbed in with "Asia" instead of Oceania? Is it because they always won that group with ease and FIFA finally wants to give New Zealand a chance? So Australia is in Asia but the neighbor is in Oceania. Where they could just play the Solomon Islands and have qualified for playoffs against Latin America's no. 5.

Australia is in a mediocre 6 team group of which 2 teams automatically qualify for the WC, and the 3rd team still goes on to do playoffs against Concacaf. In other words, in this way both the Aussies and NZ have an easy path to the WC. Worse, the US is in a Concacaf group where no less than 3 teams out of 6 automatically qualify. And there are only 3 football teams of *any* repute in that group anyway. And the no. 4 still goes through to play playoffs against Asia. Come on. Meanwhile, we're playing France, Sweden and Bulgaria with the hope that you finish second and face another tough opponent in the playoffs.

I know why it's being done ( needs to be representative of "the world" ) but it still seems a little bit imbalanced to me.

Looking at the Africans, tickets go to the 5 group winners. It's interesting to note that there doesn't seem to be any African countries anymore that stand out from the pack, whereas previously teams like Nigeria, Cameroon , Egypt South Africa and Ghana seemed well ahead of the rest. It's not unfair btw ( 5 teams seems right), just noting the level.

 

It's easier for Aussies to be No.2 in Asia than it is to be No.1 in Oceania and then play against a South American team, which is almost a guaranteed loss for the Aussies and Kiwis . Aussies rarely qualified when they were part of Oceania. Except with the golden generation when they beat Uruguay in penalties to qualify.

The other reason Aussies pushed for Asia is for development and commercial purposes, particularly to be part of the local Asia Cup. Oceania doesn't really have anything worth talking about.

[Consigliere]

Another reason was for A League teams to be part of the AFC Champions League. The feeling was that joining the more competitive AFC would improve the overall quality of Australian football.

Of course, Australia have failed to get an automatic qualifying spot for the 2018 WC after Saudi Arabia beat Japan yesterday. They will now have to go through two playoff rounds - first against Syria and then the 4th placed team in CONCACAF.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, baxus said:

The thing with catholic people in Northern Ireland supporting Republic of Ireland is pretty similar with Serbian people in Bosnia

It's similar, but more extreme. In NI for many years not only the NI team but in fact Association football itself, as a sport, was identified with Unionism and Britishness. Many NI Catholics nowadays support Eire: but thirty years ago, they didn't follow football at all. It was regarded as a 'garrison sport' (reference to the British Army garrisons). NI Catholics followed traditional Irish sports instead - Gaelic football, or hurling.

[Jordan La Cabra]

5 minutes ago, mormont said:

It's similar, but more extreme. In NI for many years not only the NI team but in fact Association football itself, as a sport, was identified with Unionism and Britishness. Many NI Catholics nowadays support Eire: but thirty years ago, they didn't follow football at all. It was regarded as a 'garrison sport' (reference to the British Army garrisons). NI Catholics followed traditional Irish sports instead - Gaelic football, or hurling.

As I said, I have friends that support ROI as opposed to NI, but it is still something that I find strange. 

I like seeing both teams do well, and some of the NI Catholics like to see NI do well, too, but some really hate the NI team.

Baffles me how some people can be so against supporting the country they are born and raised in. I understand as well as anyone the religious problems and sectarianism involved in it all. But the NI team is not made up of only Protestants, nor are the fans of NI all sectarian unionists - though, there are many of those, I'll admit.

At a time where the NI team is finally doing the country proud, it is a shame that only half the population appear to be enjoying it.

[Mark Antony]

Premier League teams vote to close Transfer window before season starts

Interesting. Might be a shitshow to start this in a World Cup year 

[Jordan La Cabra]

2 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

Premier League teams vote to close Transfer window before season starts

Interesting. Might be a shitshow to start this in a World Cup year 

Wrong choice, IMO. This isn't going to stop clubs from other countries coming in to sign PL players. How many times did Liverpool have to tell Barca 'No!' before they took the hint? Do these PL clubs really believe Barca, Real Madrid, PSG etc are just going to stop coming for their players after the English window closes because the PL clubs can't sign a replacement? No chance. The unsettling and tapping up of players will continue. Players' agents meeting with foreign clubs will continue.

The best idea would for the PL clubs to have come together with a gentleman's agreement not to try to sign players from each other after the PL had started.

[Mark Antony]

Yeah I'd be fine with it if the other European leagues went along but if its just England then its dumb 

[Consigliere]

UEFA should just have the window open from 1 June to mid-August. This EPL vote will probably go through though because the mid level and bottom clubs in England are more likely to lose their important players to other English clubs.

[Jordan La Cabra]

20 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

UEFA should just have the window open from 1 June to mid-August. This EPL vote will probably go through though because the mid level and bottom clubs in England are more likely to lose their important players to other English clubs.

Yes, it makes much more sense for the teams outside the top 6 to vote for the window closing early. Once one of their players starts excelling or a top 6 club needs reinforcements or cover, it is these top 6 clubs that would most likely come in for them. Man City's failed attempts at signing Evans, Man United signing Lukaku, Chelsea signing Drinkwater are examples. Whereas, if a top 6 club players starts excelling, then it will be Barca, Real Madrid, PSG and other members of the top 6 that come in for them. We saw that this summer with Coutinho, Oxlaide-Chamberlain, Alexis, Walker, VVD.

I really don't see why they couldn't have come to agreement with each other to stop trying to sign players from other PL clubs ahead of the first game. If a rule like that was imposed, with potential punishment included, it would have stopped the Evans, Alexis, Ox, VVD situations from arising. It would also have stopped Chelsea from signing Drinkwater and Leicester being left with no replacement as the Adrien Silva paper work was 14 seconds late.

 

[mormont]

4 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Wrong choice, IMO. This isn't going to stop clubs from other countries coming in to sign PL players. How many times did Liverpool have to tell Barca 'No!' before they took the hint? Do these PL clubs really believe Barca, Real Madrid, PSG etc are just going to stop coming for their players after the English window closes because the PL clubs can't sign a replacement? No chance. The unsettling and tapping up of players will continue. Players' agents meeting with foreign clubs will continue.

The best idea would for the PL clubs to have come together with a gentleman's agreement not to try to sign players from each other after the PL had started.

What's the effective difference between this and what they've actually done, ie closing the domestic transfer window earlier?

The only difference I can see is that this is more formal. I don't think anyone involved is kidding themselves that this will have any effect on other countries, by the way. They may hope that eventually those countries will come to a similar arrangement but since the leagues don't all start at the same time, there will always be some issues.

[polishgenius]

21 minutes ago, mormont said:

What's the effective difference between this and what they've actually done, ie closing the domestic transfer window earlier?

The only difference I can see is that this is more formal.

The difference is that Prem clubs can now also not buy players from abroad while teams from abroad can still theoretically raid the Prem, with no prospect of replacements being signed if one does leave after the Prem deadline.

[Jordan La Cabra]

22 minutes ago, mormont said:

What's the effective difference between this and what they've actually done, ie closing the domestic transfer window earlier?

The only difference I can see is that this is more formal. I don't think anyone involved is kidding themselves that this will have any effect on other countries, by the way. They may hope that eventually those countries will come to a similar arrangement but since the leagues don't all start at the same time, there will always be some issues.

I know this is just a fictional scenario. But say Barcelona lost Messi after the Premier League began next season. If they want to replace him, the Premier League is one of the places they will look to find a player. The window closing earlier wouldn't stop them from bidding for or tapping up the likes of Coutinho, Hazard, Alli etc.

The same applies for other big teams, like Real Madrid and PSG. No one believed at the start of the summer Barca would lose Neymar to PSG, but it happened, and one of the first places they looked to find a replacement was the Premier League. If Real Madrid sell Bale or Benzema next summer, they will come hunting in the Premier League, and something like the window shutting early won't stop them trying.

I know that this summer we have seen the power shift back from the player to the club, with the likes of Liverpool holding onto Coutinho and Southampton holding onto VVD, but it remains to be seen how these players apply themselves for their clubs. I am pretty sure Coutinho will be fine, but VVD's situation was a bit more extreme.

What we don't want is a pile of players being held at clubs when they really want to leave, which could start happening next season.

[mormont]

12 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

If Real Madrid sell Bale or Benzema next summer, they will come hunting in the Premier League, and something like the window shutting early won't stop them trying.

This is a weird objection if only because nobody, including the clubs who shut the window early, is pretending that it will.

[Jordan La Cabra]

19 minutes ago, mormont said:

This is a weird objection if only because nobody, including the clubs who shut the window early, is pretending that it will.

Which is something I would have expected them to look at as a good enough reason not to vote for the window to close earlier. I think it is a good idea, if only it were a universal rule. But as the leagues across Europe start at different times, it can't happen.

 

 

Sky Sports sources are reporting that Manchester United, Manchester City, Swansea, Crystal Palace, Watford and Burnley voted against it. 

A surprise Man United voted against it, as Jose has continually said he would like the window to be shut as early as possible, and generally, he prefers his clubs to get business wrapped up as quickly as possible.

No surprise Man City voted against it. What would they do if an average English footballer became available after the first game? There would be a £50m hole burning in their pockets!