Football - City Bid the Wrong Type of Sterling

[Consigliere]

13 hours ago, ljkeane said:

In fairness they did grind out some results at the end of last season.

True, but this is a rarity. Klopp has the one plan and is reluctant to adjust depending on the match situation. This insistence on constantly playing a high tempo/high energy brand of football took its toll on the squad during the second half of the season despite Liverpool having the joint lightest fixture list among the top six.

[Mark Antony]

5 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

It really didn't, there's not much Klavan or most other centre backs could do about the first goal. Given the red card the game was pretty much over at that point.

Even before the red card Klavan and TAA looked out of their depth imo. Not all on them of course, The midfield was mostly invisible and more to blame for the first goal. Still I don't see how Klopp leaving us in an even worse position CB wise than last year is defensible. 

[The Winged Shadow]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

If you're panic buying, that's not plan B. Plan B would be to have a further list of players similar in profile to VVD you can work on once it became clear he wasn't moving to you- which was apparent very early on in the window.

Panic buy is bit of an exaggeration on my part. I expect they never could land their plan a because they don't regularly qualify for CL and didn't have the pull they used to (or have now) and settled for plan b. And plan b was never good enough. I don't think there are many defenders in the world who would be comfortable playing for Liverpool. I include VVD in that list, as Lovren has proven that being good at Southampton doesn't mean you'll do well in Liverpool. I don't watch many Southampton or Celtic games so I don't really know how good VVD actually is. But Liverpool hopefully did their homework and identified him as someone who is a good fit. Or can hopefully be a good fit.

I don't think it was clear at all after he handed in a transfer request. There was a little bit of hope!

46 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Alvaro Morata appeared to be a plan B for Chelsea when they didn't get Romelu Lukaku. He has turned out pretty good for us so far. It's not always a case of 'if it's not VVD, it'll be someone's Klaven standard'. There are plenty of other good defenders out there that isn't just VVD.

Anyway, the idea that VVD would suit Liverpool's system is a strange one. In terms of defending, it doesn't really seem like they have a system at all to begin with.

Recently, he has played for Celtic, where they were the dominant team in their league and didn't expect to defend much. He moved to Southampton and became a key member of a team that has had a strong defensive under every manager they had since they got back into the PL. Lovern was really good at Southampton, too, and he doesn't look the same at Liverpool.

When AVB was manager of Chelsea for half a season in 2011/2012, our defence was woeful because he played a high defensive line. We conceded a ton of goals with centre backs that included JT, Luiz, Cahill - three of the best we have had.

Di Matteo came in and changed our system and made us play a defensive style of football and we ended up winning the CL and conceding very few goals. Cahill and Luiz, that looked useless under AVB, played together during the CL final against Bayern and were excellent.

Liverpool could have Bonucci, Chiellini and Barzagli in their defensive and still concede the amount of goals they do. It's about the system and the coaching, and neither of those seem good at Liverpool, with regards to defending.

As I've said, just a 'good defender' won't cut it at Liverpool. I largely agree with you about VVD in that he might not actually succeed at Liverpool, similar to Lovren. Also agree with you that Liverpool's style is the main cause of defensive fragility.

But adding a 'good defender' isn't going to help Liverpool's defensive fragility unless it's someone who can handle being exposed. Most "good defenders" that generally get mentioned play in systems where they are lot more protected (i.e. your list of Juve defenders). Other overly attack minded teams, e.g. City, have the same problem as Liverpool. The defense look shaky as hell because of the style.

The only team in EPL who are almost as attacking as pool and city but have good defensive record is Spurs (although they are a lot more balanced than City and Pool). And I'd gladly take Vertonghen over VVD if we could!

As for your Morata comparison, I don't think Liverpool had such options available. I think we would've heard more names if Pool thought there were others out there who could fit the bill that VVD (apparently) does.

[Jordan La Cabra]

11 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

It really didn't, there's not much Klavan or most other centre backs could do about the first goal. Given the red card the game was pretty much over at that point.

That's quite a defeatist attitude. The red card for Mane is still no excuse to lose 5-0, I don't care who the opposition is.

Klopp doesn't have the tactical nous to come up with a strategy in game if something goes against him, such as an early red card. Plenty of managers have tweaked things after receiving a red card 1-0 down and have gone onto win the game.

Could you imagine a Mourinho team capitulating like Liverpool did yesterday? 

[ljkeane]

1 minute ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Could you imagine a Mourinho team capitulating like Liverpool did yesterday? 

Probably not. They probably would have dropped deep and lost 1-0, which is nice but ultimately still 3 points lost. And of course I expect a Mourinho team would have come into the game looking to be defensive from the outset and quite happy with a draw.

[Philokles]

6 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Could you imagine a Mourinho team capitulating like Liverpool did yesterday? 

Yes

[Jordan La Cabra]

10 minutes ago, The Winged Shadow said:

The only team in EPL who are almost as attacking as pool and city but have good defensive record is Spurs (although they are a lot more balanced than City and Pool). And I'd gladly take Vertonghen over VVD if we could!

 

The interesting thing about Tottenham, considering my previous post, was when Vertonghen played for Tottenham under AVB, he didn't look half the player he does now, as they were poor defensively back then.

Pochetino has come in and instilled an ethos and system in this team that means it can balance its attacking and defensive duties really well. True, they are lucky they have good personnel such as Vertonghen, Alderweireld in defence and Dier and Wanyama in midfield, but three out of those four have been signed during Poch's spell there and it is under his system all four are excelling. Personnel helps, but it is down to the manager at the end of the day. 

Poch is the reason for Tottenham's success defensively and Klopp is the reason for Liverpool's failures defensively in both not signing the right players and not adapting his system to be able to defend properly more consistently.

[The Winged Shadow]

8 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

True, but this is a rarity. Klopp has the one plan and is reluctant to adjust depending on the match situation. This insistence on constantly playing a high tempo/high energy brand of football took its toll on the squad during the second half of the season despite Liverpool having the joint lightest fixture list among the top six.

Don't think I agree with this. They tend to drop their tempo quite a bit (except Mane, but he is a beast) later in second half if they are winning. If not, then they don't (understandably). Dropping their tempo has cost them a quite a few points last season as other teams came back late against Pool. The lack of squad depth and injuries played a bigger role than the high tempo.

And before anyone jump on the injuries, you will note that most of the injuries were not related to physical intensity of play, but rather unfortunate knocks, bad landings, bad challenges etc.

17 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

Even before the red card Klavan and TAA looked out of their depth imo. Not all on them of course, The midfield was mostly invisible and more to blame for the first goal. Still I don't see how Klopp leaving us in an even worse position CB wise than last year is defensible. 

TAA had a bad game in defense. His defending needs to improve significantly before he can start before Gomez in games like these. Speaking of which, I would've thought Gomez would be an upgrade to Lucas in CB position, so we aren't technically worse off?

[The Winged Shadow]

17 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

That's quite a defeatist attitude. The red card for Mane is still no excuse to lose 5-0, I don't care who the opposition is.

Klopp doesn't have the tactical nous to come up with a strategy in game if something goes against him, such as an early red card. Plenty of managers have tweaked things after receiving a red card 1-0 down and have gone onto win the game.

Could you imagine a Mourinho team capitulating like Liverpool did yesterday? 

Klopp did make changes to the system. Pretty sure Pool was playing 3-5-1 at one point as Can dropped in to the middle of 3. It just didn't work out . Specially since Guardiola countered by scrapping the 3-man defense and brought more players forward to retain the ball.

 

[ljkeane]

11 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Poch is the reason for Tottenham's success defensively and Klopp is the reason for Liverpool's failures defensively in both not signing the right players and not adapting his system to be able to defend properly more consistently.

Ok, great, we could play two defensive midfielders and probably be better defensively. I don't think anyone's unaware of that option but what exactly does it get us? Spurs, United and Chelsea would still be better than us defensively and we've just made our advantage, the attack, worse and we don't have Harry Kane up front to compensate for us like Spurs do.

 

[Consigliere]

22 minutes ago, The Winged Shadow said:

Don't think I agree with this. They tend to drop their tempo quite a bit (except Mane, but he is a beast) later in second half if they are winning. If not, then they don't (understandably). Dropping their tempo has cost them a quite a few points last season as other teams came back late against Pool. The lack of squad depth and injuries played a bigger role than the high tempo.

And before anyone jump on the injuries, you will note that most of the injuries were not related to physical intensity of play, but rather unfortunate knocks, bad landings, bad challenges etc.

Can't totally agree here. Yes, squad depth and injuries played a role as well. Squad depth remains an issue particularly with the added European fixtures and coping with the loss of injured players are part and parcel of the game. Too many of Liverpool's games last season turned into frantic affairs precisely because of the reluctance to take the sting out of the game and see it out in third gear. The team constantly persisted with high defensive lines and over-committing in attack resulting in soft goals being conceded and points being dropped. Liverpool players started looking leggy halfway through last season.

[ljkeane]

Looks like Tom Heaton might have just dislocated his shoulder. Ouch.

[Consigliere]

Palace are in a bad way. Thus far this season they can't buy a goal while individual errors are being punished to the fullest extent. They did look more organised defensively today though and should have gotten at least a point from this game. Dann with an unforgivable miss from like 2 yards out. TFM has been impressive so far.

[ljkeane]

Renato Sanches looks dynamic and strong on the ball but his range of passing hasn't been great so far.

[MercenaryChef]

19 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Renato Sanches looks dynamic and strong on the ball but his range of passing hasn't been great so far.

what? he has given up possession about 20 times via getting the ball taken or bad passes.

 

[ljkeane]

17 minutes ago, MercurialCannibal said:

what? he has given up possession about 20 times via getting the ball taken or bad passes.

 

Er, I can't recall him getting the ball taken off him once when he's been on the ball? He's beaten defenders well a couple of times. Yeah, his passing hasn't been good, that's why I said his passing hasn't looked good.

ETA: Heh, Matt Richie's just done pretty much the same thing Mane did yesterday but because the defender isn't hurt he gets a yellow. Shouldn't the penalty be based on the actions of the penalised player rather than the outcome?

Not that I'm bitter or anything.

[Philokles]

42 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Renato Sanches looks dynamic and strong on the ball but his range of passing hasn't been great so far.

Sounds familiar. If it goes the same as last season his head will drop, he'll stop doing what he is good at and try increasingly elaborate through-balls to make up for his errors.

[MercenaryChef]

20 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Er, I can't recall him getting the ball taken off him once when he's been on the ball? He's beaten defenders well a couple of times. Yeah, his passing hasn't been good, that's why I said his passing hasn't looked good.

ETA: Heh, Matt Richie's just done pretty much the same thing Mane did yesterday but because the defender isn't hurt he gets a yellow. Shouldn't the penalty be based on the actions of the penalised player rather than the outcome?

Not that I'm bitter or anything.

i was shocked that he was allowed to get off with only a yellow.

[Jordan La Cabra]

Wasn't overly impressed with Renato Sanches. To me, he looked nothing more than an ordinary centre midfielder that controls the ball well and is a decent sideways passer, anything more risky than that and he gave it to a Newcastle player.

Decent header for Lascellas to put Newcastle into the lead. Think Fabianski will be disappointed not to stop it, though, considering the wonder save he pulled off earlier.

 

Side note: These things shouldn't matter, but Wilfried Bony wearing no. 2 as a striker is just plain stupid to me.

[MercenaryChef]

what a win!!!!

 

we are gonna win the league!