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GOT without magic, dragons and WW would have been 10X better


mathzee

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The politics alone in Westeros is so good already. The characters and geography of each houses is properly placed.

Plus the story of the armies like Unsullied, Dothraki and Golden Company is so awesome already.

Now that magics are taking over the story, can't deal with so many loopholes already.

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The magical elements are not the problem. They enhance the story wonderfully (when used properly) rather than work against it.

The problem is the decline in quality of the writing and in some cases, decisions on how to use those magical elements, that has been disappointing, rather than the fact that the magical elements exist at all.

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Nice question! I've wondered about this quite often. The only problem with magic is when it is used to solve everything without the characters really working for it or deserving it. Maybe the main reason I liked Harry Potter when I read it is because the most crucial victories were achieved through sacrifice, selflessness, grit and intelligence, not just by someone being more powerful in magic than the rest. The magic only served to add wonder and make the situations even more dramatic.

On the other hand, The Inheritance Cycle is resolved with just a discovery of a new word, which the author doesn't even explain, so I really hated that ending.

On GoT I think Bran is leaning more towards the latter. I didn't like how the Starks found out about Littlefinger, for example. He wasn't outsmarted or outplayed, he was just not born with greensight, while Bran was. Some of Daenerys' rise in the East are like that as well, especially in the series (she just says Dracarys 3 times in 3 seasons to get ships, an army, and conquer 3 cities). Renly's death was also a very poor resolution I think. I hope the two remaining books and the last season of the series do better than this because it would be a shame to make the point that however smar, strong-willed, skilled some characters are, others are just born with magic and that's all they need.

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I do agree that the politics of Game of Thrones is its strong suit.  King's Landing in the early seasons was by far the best part.  But I do think some elements of magic help improve the drama, namely the prophecies and warging.  The heavy emphasis on dragons, omniscience, and undead in the later half has definitely had a negative impact on my enjoyment of the show.

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45 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

The magical elements are not the problem. They enhance the story wonderfully (when used properly) rather than work against it.

The problem is the decline in quality of the writing and in some cases, decisions on how to use those magical elements, that has been disappointing, rather than the fact that the magical elements exist at all.

:agree:

They actually pulled out lots of the magical aspects that are in the story, but run in other issues with that, forcing them to resort in right-on-time-saves, people who can run 100 miles in half a day and supersonic ravens.

They make Bran completely omniscient, but because none of this siblings are wargs they need to get Bran physically at WF, but simultanesouly prevent him from revealing everything immediately. In the books all siblings are wargs (though not greenseers), and Bran reaches out to them in dreams, usnig the limited talk of ravens (no full long sentences longer than 2 words) and whispering via a weirwood. George severely limited Bran in this way to communicate with his siblings (and Theon) directly. So, their decision to keep only Bran as a warg, actually made a mess of it.

Resurrected people are not the person they used to be. The magic comes with a heavy heavy cost. Aside from still having their scars, neither Beric nor Jon are all that different. And even if Jon isn't a "fire wight" as George calls Beric, and his soul/being can be stored in Ghost before his healing or resurrection, staying inside a wolf for too long would make Jon very likely a farmore feral and aggressive person.

In the show Dany rides Drogon, but has some sort of control apparently over Viserion and Rhaegal. They join her in battle. It doesn't work that way in the books. She has only just become a dragonrider with barely any control over Drogon. In order to have any coordinated control over Viserion and Rhaegal she needs to find dragonriders for them. And the longer they stay unbound the more feral they become.

Coldhands is not confirmed to be Benjen, and likely isn't even Benjen. Many readers believe that Benjen is dead. Coldhands seems to have warg powers and very very old. But he's not this superguy. He saves Sam from the wights beyod the wall, gets him to the Nighfort which has a forgotten magic gate (and it is this gate that Coldhands cannot pass) to pick up Bran. He helps Bran get to the cave on a giant elk, but that elk dies from starvation and exhaustion eventually.

And Mel gets her visions wrong most of the time. She has correct visions, but her own ego and belief system makes her handle them wrongly. Thoros' grief over Beric giving up his life for Catelyn made him so dillusioned that he can't see anything in the flames anymore.

So, George has more magical characters, but they are all seriously limited. Meanwhile, D&D limited the number of magical characters, but makes them miraculous and immense plot armor.

And D&D's political game has become nonsense too. Like seriously: what was LF playing at for the last seasons? Varys has become a non-entity. They had an intrigue with the Tyrells and Dorne and messed it up. And any military and political logic has been thrown out the window completely this season.

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Aspects/Scenes that I really hate about magic being involved in this show is:

 

  • Renly's death is like wtf? Where are you now black smoke? Can you pls. kill all the bad people in Westeros now?
  • Resurrections and how you can't die after it. Jon's can't just die like that.
  • Sandor out of nowhere can now see future in the flames? WTF? 
  • Faceless men and how you can use many faces from dead people is the most weird part for me. Can you atleast give us a back story?
  • Dany have two dragons, decided to sail instead of flying because she wants to have a good impression that she's not a conqueror, I mean dude, use one of your dragon, bring some of you counsel and land near Winterfell where no one can see you. What are you doing wasting time where WW are just around the corner? or she planned it all along to bang Jon? Common sense is not so common now in Winterfell.
  • Is uncle Benjen half WW half normal people? The F is he doing on the other side of the wall? Dude's timing is always on point LOL.

 

I can live having prophecies but this show would have been so good w/out magic.

 

That flaming sword of Beric and the way he put flames on it is badass though.

Gone are the days where they will kill a major character out of no where and it will caught viewers/fans off guard.

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GoT would have been a lot better without magic and unrealistic phantasy. Just a phantasy continent in medieval setting would have been fine. OK, dragons would be OK and some prophecies maybe.

I don't like the "extreme" fantasy moments like "Renly killed by a shadow" or all the resurrections and the faceless men stuff. The story would have worked without this stuff a lot better. 

I always enjoy the realistic scenes a lot more. About courage, love, hate, greed. About cruelty and bravery, about human behaviour.

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12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

They actually pulled out lots of the magical aspects that are in the story, but run in other issues with that, forcing them to resort in right-on-time-saves, people who can run 100 miles in half a day and supersonic ravens.

They make Bran completely omniscient, but because none of this siblings are wargs they need to get Bran physically at WF, but simultanesouly prevent him from revealing everything immediately. In the books all siblings are wargs (though not greenseers), and Bran reaches out to them in dreams, usnig the limited talk of ravens (no full long sentences longer than 2 words) and whispering via a weirwood. George severely limited Bran in this way to communicate with his siblings (and Theon) directly. So, their decision to keep only Bran as a warg, actually made a mess of it.

Resurrected people are not the person they used to be. The magic comes with a heavy heavy cost. Aside from still having their scars, neither Beric nor Jon are all that different. And even if Jon isn't a "fire wight" as George calls Beric, and his soul/being can be stored in Ghost before his healing or resurrection, staying inside a wolf for too long would make Jon very likely a farmore feral and aggressive person.

In the show Dany rides Drogon, but has some sort of control apparently over Viserion and Rhaegal. They join her in battle. It doesn't work that way in the books. She has only just become a dragonrider with barely any control over Drogon. In order to have any coordinated control over Viserion and Rhaegal she needs to find dragonriders for them. And the longer they stay unbound the more feral they become.

Coldhands is not confirmed to be Benjen, and likely isn't even Benjen. Many readers believe that Benjen is dead. Coldhands seems to have warg powers and very very old. But he's not this superguy. He saves Sam from the wights beyod the wall, gets him to the Nighfort which has a forgotten magic gate (and it is this gate that Coldhands cannot pass) to pick up Bran. He helps Bran get to the cave on a giant elk, but that elk dies from starvation and exhaustion eventually.

And Mel gets her visions wrong most of the time. She has correct visions, but her own ego and belief system makes her handle them wrongly. Thoros' grief over Beric giving up his life for Catelyn made him so dillusioned that he can't see anything in the flames anymore.

So, George has more magical characters, but they are all seriously limited. Meanwhile, D&D limited the number of magical characters, but makes them miraculous and immense plot armor.

And D&D's political game has become nonsense too. Like seriously: what was LF playing at for the last seasons? Varys has become a non-entity. They had an intrigue with the Tyrells and Dorne and messed it up. And any military and political logic has been thrown out the window completely this season.

Excellent post @sweetsunray, I agree with everything you've said here.

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I always thought the magic and epic super powered beings were handled pretty well lol

i thought it was cool and different how it started out a very small piece of the series and gradually became more and more a part of the series. It was great build up to something the characters and I wouldn't have imagined 

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On 30/8/2017 at 9:47 AM, mathzee said:

The politics alone in Westeros is so good already. The characters and geography of each houses is properly placed.

Plus the story of the armies like Unsullied, Dothraki and Golden Company is so awesome already.

Now that magics are taking over the story, can't deal with so many loopholes already.

The loopholes are not there because of the magic. I agree with everything @sweetsunray has said.

Anyway, the magic does not bother me, on the contrary, I miss it, particularly the warg ability of the Stark children. Fire as a symbolic  and magical element,  needs a balance. In this story, we have on a side fire-Targaryen-dragons, on the other side ice-Starks-wolves. Targaryen blood has some magic in it, and it's linked to dragons and fire. Stark blood has some magic in it, and it's linked to wolves and ice. The Stark children being wargs is not something that GRRM put in the story for no reason, just because "Wouldn't it be cool if...?", and the story impoverishes without it.
If this show was only some period drama with political intrigues and battles... well, in that sense Roma was a better show.

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So far as we know, the NK isn't in the books, the Children didn't create the Others. D&D added bullshit magic, removed or greatly simplified the complex stories, like the Meereen's knot. Where are the Blackfyres, Illirio and Aegon? Is Doran so stupid, Euron just another Ramsey? It would have daunted most casual show viewer, but I would have loved a story really faithful to GRRM's books.

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Oh come on! All of you complaining about too much magic are doing so just because you can't stand the good guys win & desperately want to see the bad guys prevail. I bet you will not complain if was the bad guys who were victorious because of magic. 

So what if Littlefinger lost because he didn't have the superpower that Bran has? Yeah... oh the great schemer got his throat because of magic... it's so unfair! Keep that to yourself please. Good guys win as it supposed to be, and that it all matters to most of the viewers. Maybe some people here want to be edgy by rooting for the bad guy... or there are really some depraved people out there who derive pleasure from seeing evils march victoriously... fortunately I believe most of the fans aren't like that. 

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1 hour ago, Jon Snow is a loser said:

All of you complaining about too much magic are doing so just because you can't stand the good guys win & desperately want to see the bad guys prevail

What's wrong with you? Why such accusations to users you do not even know?

I am certainly not on "the bade side" and I don't see magic as to belong to one side or the other. No one wants the Ice King to win and it won't be the case anyway.

Some of the magic is just too unrealistic and serves no point. The story would work in many threads better without. A shadow killing Renly? Why? Entirely unnecessary magic only used once, not even consistently.The resurrections are entirely superfluous. And so on.

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On 30/08/2017 at 8:47 PM, mathzee said:

The politics alone in Westeros is so good already. The characters and geography of each houses is properly placed.

Plus the story of the armies like Unsullied, Dothraki and Golden Company is so awesome already.

Now that magics are taking over the story, can't deal with so many loopholes already.

I couldn't agree more.  I got hooked on the show because of the characters and their relationships/feuds.  All the supernatural stuff is not my thing.  I would have been ok with it if the White Walkers and Wights remained as they were in the early seasons (ie faithful to how they were in the books) but I really hate the way D&D have changed them and given them a leader with amazing powers.

For example, wasn't it enough that the White Walkers were bigger than humans, super strong, brought the cold with them, had some bizarre icy weapons that shattered ordinary metal and were able to raise the dead?  Why also give them a king who can enter Bran's visions, shake the ground by touching it with his hand and convert human babies into White Walkers?  Now he also has a blue fire breathing dragon.

There is no way they can make the living get away from them or defeat them without plot holes or plot armour.  I can live with some minor plot holes for the sake of drama and suspense, but when it renders the whole scene or story ridiculous, I can't.

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On 31/08/2017 at 2:17 AM, Khorkalba said:

GRRM has no talent at all for high fantasy

lol m8

I love what he does. It's fantastic in both senses. It's a bit different in Game of Thrones because of the necessary lack of depth, but in ASOIAF, I don't know how you could possibly justify that opinion. Of course many people won't like what he does, but that's nothing to do with GRRM having "no talent".

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Yeah, magic in the books was an immensely powerful force... a sword with no hilt as it were, but it had serious limitations and was so rare that it only served the plot rather than actually being it. In the show it has become a problem since D&D are using it as a crutch to sort out what they feel are 'problems' in the story.

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3 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

lol m8

I love what he does. It's fantastic in both senses. It's a bit different in Game of Thrones because of the necessary lack of depth, but in ASOIAF, I don't know how you could possibly justify that opinion. Of course many people won't like what he does, but that's nothing to do with GRRM having "no talent".

All of the fantasy elements in ASoIaF are actually fairly shallow when compared to someone like Tolkien who not only created multiple unique languages for races but also wrote a pretty extensive history for his universe.

Some quotes from GRRM himself even suggest that he's not a natural fantasy writer. In one interview, he said something along the lines of "fantasy is just furniture" and that the only thing he thinks is worth writing about is "conflict of the human heart".

To clarify, i'm not saying that GRRM has no talent. i'm only criticising his skill at crafting a fantasy world. If you strip away all the fantasy elements and just look at his ability to tell compelling stories from the POV of characters then he clearly has a lot of talent.

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1 hour ago, Khorkalba said:

Some quotes from GRRM himself even suggest that he's not a natural fantasy writer. In one interview, he said something along the lines of "fantasy is just furniture" and that the only thing he thinks is worth writing about is "conflict of the human heart".

This sounds much like Terry "I don't write fantasy I write story with important human theme" Goodkind. 

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