Jon Snow's Eye Colour

[lojzelote]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

My son's eyes are brown so dark they look black, and have been since day one.

Then he's probably got more melanin than is usual, assuming he is Caucasian.

[Hedera of the Helix]

Even if Jon Snow's eyes were purple or violet or indigo it wouldn't necessarily mean he was a Targaryen to people of the North. It was common knowledge that Ned (gray eyes) was in love with Ashara Dayne, a beautiful maiden with laughing purple eyes. Jon was assumed to be the bastard from Ned's and Ashara's union, so if he had eyes that were a shade of violet it would lend more credence to THAT belief and keep Jon safe. 

However, his eyes are gray (and his hair is brown) so apparently the Stark genes are dominant over the mostly inbred Targaryens. 

Eye color is truly fascinating. It's actually due to structural coloration. There is no blue or green pigment.

If you have blue eyes, your stroma is colorless, or rather it lacks pigment. As light enters the iris and passes through the stroma, the fibers in the stroma scatter light and create a blue color. This is called the Tyndall effect - which is similar to the Rayleigh effect that makes the sky blue.

Gray eyes are a variant of blue eyes. The gray appearance is caused by an excess of collagen in the stroma of the eye. The excess collagen in gray eyes disrupts the light scattering and instead of favoring the blue wavelengths and appearing blue, the eyes will appear a colorless gray because all light wavelengths are scattered and reflected equally.  

That's why blue eyes and green eyes appear so changeable. The depth and intensity depends on the quality of light available and is influenced by surrounding colors. The Tyndall effect can produce a blue violet appearance but it's not as drastic as in GRRM's world. Even Elizabeth Taylor's famed "violet eyes" were just a shade of blue that she artfully enhanced with clothing, make up and lighting to appear violet blue.

Rhaegar's eyes are described in the books as being dark indigo. Indigo is NOT purple, it's approx 3/4 blue and 1/4 violet to 1/2 blue and 1/2 violet. There is some debate where it lays on the electromagnetic spectrum. 

Therefore, Jon Snow's eyes possibly DO reflect his Targaryen heritage. =)   He's just got a helluva lot of collagen in his stroma. XD

(Lyanna's eye color has never been confirmed in the books but they are assumed to be gray.)

 

 

[Ygrain]

44 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

Then he's probably got more melanin than is usual, assuming he is Caucasian.

He is. He also tans very easily and generally sports a bit darker complexion while not looking, eh, Dornish  My eyes are a lighter shade and my skin tone lighter than his, but my mother never mentioned my eyes changing colour, so I suppose they were brown when I was born, as well. Hers used to be green-brown - when looking closely in direct sunlight, you could see that the irises were brown in the centre with greenish rim; they were never blue in childhood, either.

18 minutes ago, Hedera of the Helix said:

Even if Jon Snow's eyes were purple or violet or indigo it wouldn't necessarily mean he was a Targaryen to people of the North. It was common knowledge that Ned (gray eyes) was in love with Ashara Dayne, a beautiful maiden with laughing purple eyes. Jon was assumed to be the bastard from Ned's and Ashara's union, so if he had eyes that were a shade of violet it would lend more credence to THAT belief and keep Jon safe. 

However, his eyes are gray (and his hair is brown) so apparently the Stark genes are dominant over the mostly inbred Targaryens. 

Eye color is truly fascinating. It's actually due to structural coloration. There is no blue or green pigment.

If you have blue eyes, your stroma is colorless, or rather it lacks pigment. As light enters the iris and passes through the stroma, the fibers in the stroma scatter light and create a blue color. This is called the Tyndall effect - which is similar to the Rayleigh effect that makes the sky blue.

Gray eyes are a variant of blue eyes. The gray appearance is caused by an excess of collagen in the stroma of the eye. The excess collagen in gray eyes disrupts the light scattering and instead of favoring the blue wavelengths and appearing blue, the eyes will appear a colorless gray because all light wavelengths are scattered and reflected equally.  

That's why blue eyes and green eyes appear so changeable. The depth and intensity depends on the quality of light available and is influenced by surrounding colors. The Tyndall effect can produce a blue violet appearance but it's not as drastic as in GRRM's world. Even Elizabeth Taylor's famed "violet eyes" were just a shade of blue that she artfully enhanced with clothing, make up and lighting to appear violet blue.

Rhaegar's eyes are described in the books as being dark indigo. Indigo is NOT purple, it's approx 3/4 blue and 1/4 violet to 1/2 blue and 1/2 violet. There is some debate where it lays on the electromagnetic spectrum. 

Therefore, Jon Snow's eyes possibly DO reflect his Targaryen heritage. =)   He's just got a helluva lot of collagen in his stroma. XD

(Lyanna's eye color has never been confirmed in the books but they are assumed to be gray.)

Wow, thanks for the science :-)

[Schwarze Sonne]

I think that Jon's eyes are old dark lavender. It's the closest to dark grey for purple hue. Indigo is very bluish that I don't think it'll appear in grey.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Well yeah, Elizabeth Taylor´s eyes are supposed to look violet in certain light, no? I believe that GRRM himself said that Ashara´s eyes were like that. Which was a bit of a letdown to be honest. They seem pretty blue to me for most part. I expected a more vibrant purple hue like in my avatar.

Well, I didn't recall any violet eyes in Taylor during my last watch of Cleopatra but I'm not exactly the greatest Taylor fan on earth. I think the whole thing has more to do with being lighted differently and then filmed rather than something you can actually experience when interacting with a person. I never saw anyone change his eye color in real life. But I do know somebody with with mismatched eyes. But he is neither a dwarf nor a stunning beauty.

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

You can recognize eye color in that small picture? Clearly, Daeron had silver hair, but it doesn´t neccessarily equal purple eyes as well.

I've a high resolution pdf of the book. You can see somewhat more there if you try. Duncan's seem to be darker and Daeron's clearly somewhat violetish. But you never know. Egg and Jaehaerys both don't seem to be exactly the eye color they are supposed to have as by the Amok descriptions. 

But since I'm talking about that portrait - did you guys catch Jaehaerys II's twisted crippled left arm? He is clearly not just sickly but actually a freak. I originally speculated he may have burned said arm at Summerhall since it is also deliberately concealed on his portrait as king but apparently he wasn't as well-grown as Targaryens like to be - more like Aegon II's son Jaehaerys.

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

I have always assumed that Shaera looked pure Valyrian, mostly because she was Aerys´s mother and.. it just seems right that both parents of the Mad King would have looked like protypical Targaryens?

That would be the idea, yeah. It seems that an accident of nature might have produced a pair Targaryens who inherited the blood of the dragon in a very pure form, never mind the fact that they had a couple of ancestors who weren't inbred.

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

No idea about Rhaelle, but IIRC weren´t the blue eyes supposed to be a part of the Baratheon superdominant look? It could have been passed down from the Durrandons. Duncan I´ve always imagined to look like a Blackwood entirely, but it´s only my gut feeling.

Orys had black hair and black hair. Thus the blue eyes could be a Valyrian trait. Or just something that's not exactly all that dominant in the Durrandon-Baratheon line. The crucial thing seems to be the hair.

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

If Jon had purple eyes or silver hair, hiding his identity would have no sense.

But "Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black" (AGoT Bran I). They could be dark indigo. And Rhaegar "eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac" (ACoK Daenerys  IV). So Jon's eyes may be quite like his father. The Starks have grey or dark grey eyes. So one would see dark grey almost back, rather than "indigo", in Jon's eyes.

The idea that Rhaegar's children would have to his eyes even if they had Valyrian eyes doesn't make a lot of sense. Aegon V had different eyes than Jaehaerys II who had different eyes than Aerys II. And Rhaegar, Viserys, and Dany's eyes all have different shades of purple, too. And since all Targaryens descend from blue-eyed Jaehaerys I and blue-eyed Alysanne it is also quite clear that those purple eyes can jump a generation entirely.

But if you check indigo the color really looks nothing like black or dark grey. If Jon had dark indigo eyes people would describes those eyes as such.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Pretty much all (fair-skinned?) children are born with blue eyes, aren't they? Colors can change later on.

<snip

And who knows? Perhaps the blue eyes of the Baratheon brothers and Shireen are a Valyrian trait inherited from Rhaelle? Orys Baratheon didn't have them.

I think that might turn out to be a myth. Out of my four children only one was born with blue eyes and they stayed blue. My second is the most interesting in that his eyes were shark-gray when he was born and have been changing ever since.

The Black hair and blue eyes come from the Durrandon line, but the Valyrian genes Rhaelle carried could have reinforced the blue eyes, and her Blackwood genes could certainly have included some strong black hair tendencies as well.

[lojzelote]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I didn't recall any violet eyes in Taylor during my last watch of Cleopatra but I'm not exactly the greatest Taylor fan on earth. I think the whole thing has more to do with being lighted differently and then filmed rather than something you can actually experience when interacting with a person. I never saw anyone change his eye color in real life. But I do know somebody with with mismatched eyes. But he is neither a dwarf nor a stunning beauty.

I've a high resolution pdf of the book. You can see somewhat more there if you try. Duncan's seem to be darker and Daeron's clearly somewhat violetish. But you never know. Egg and Jaehaerys both don't seem to be exactly the eye color they are supposed to have as by the Amok descriptions. 

But since I'm talking about that portrait - did you guys catch Jaehaerys II's twisted crippled left arm? He is clearly not just sickly but actually a freak. I originally speculated he may have burned said arm at Summerhall since it is also deliberately concealed on his portrait as king but apparently he wasn't as well-grown as Targaryens like to be - more like Aegon II's son Jaehaerys.

That would be the idea, yeah. It seems that an accident of nature might have produced a pair Targaryens who inherited the blood of the dragon in a very pure form, never mind the fact that they had a couple of ancestors who weren't inbred.

Orys had black hair and black hair. Thus the blue eyes could be a Valyrian trait. Or just something that's not exactly all that dominant in the Durrandon-Baratheon line. The crucial thing seems to be the hair.

The idea that Rhaegar's children would have to his eyes even if they had Valyrian eyes doesn't make a lot of sense. Aegon V had different eyes than Jaehaerys II who had different eyes than Aerys II. And Rhaegar, Viserys, and Dany's eyes all have different shades of purple, too. And since all Targaryens descend from blue-eyed Jaehaerys I and blue-eyed Alysanne it is also quite clear that those purple eyes can jump a generation entirely.

But if you check indigo the color really looks nothing like black or dark grey. If Jon had dark indigo eyes people would describes those eyes as such.

I think that what actually comes closest to the description of "lilac" eyes are the eyes of albinos. They have very little melanin which makes their iris the palest blue that together  with the red blood shining through gives them a violet appearance, at least in certain light.

Of course, the Targaryens are not albinos, since Bloodraven was supposed to differ in appearance, and Egg got all bronze-skinned while in Dorne. But it's kinda funny how Bloodraven's appearance - including his deep red eyes - sets him apart from his kin, while irl albinos are the ones that actually can have purplish eyes.

I have no idea what could be considered the real life equivalent of Darkstar's dark purple eyes.

Well, I though that that particular picture was a bit strange, because Egg looked like his sons' older brother instead of a father. Also Betha and the girls were missing. Disrespect!

Hm, it is possible. Although it would be surpising it has not been mentioned so far. Westeros is a very ableist society, and I can't imagine that a king with a deformed hand wouldn't have been worth notice and some slander. In fact I was surprised that in TWoIaF, the birth of Aegon II's Jaehaerys was presented as a positive development for the Aegon faction. During real Middle Ages, it would have been deemed a sign of witchcraft and destroyed any pretender's reputation. One got to wonder how hideous Jaehaerys' hand would have to have been for him to keep it covered if the other Jaehaerys having extra fingers was no big deal.

To me the most interesting thing about Jaehaerys II is that he appears to be a precursor to Rhaegar. Both had done very foolish things in the name of love and prophecy. Jaehaerys got away with it, Rhaegar did not (I'd wager that having Egg for a father instead of Aerys helped), but the handsome, strapping tourney champion Rhaegar was much more popular than his frail grandfather had ever been.

I don't think we have got a detailed description of any earlier Baratheons, but I've always assumed that they are de facto the Durrandons going by a new name. If a blue-eyed Rhaelle Targaryen and black eyed Ormund Baratheon could have had a blue-eyed son, so could had had a blue-eyed son a blue-eyed Argella Durrandon and black-eyed Orys Baratheon. It's not a hill I'm willing to die on though.

[Lord Varys]

Here you can see some shades of indigo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo

Make of that what you will, but it doesn't seem likely that anyone would confuse 'dark gray' with 'dark indigo' - whatever that might be, it is not exactly a shade of color that seem to exist. If it was somewhat along the lines of the 'deep indigo' you can see above it would be very visibly violet and not at all gray or even blue.

But again - Targaryens usually do not inherit their parents' eyes. Which means searching for 'dark indigo' in Jon's eyes is a completely pointless exercise. As is the idea to try to 'prove' that Aegon cannot be Rhaegar's son because his eyes do not match Rhaegar's. 

And in fact, Rhaegar's eyes seem to change color between ACoK and AFfC/ADwD. In those books people like Cersei and Connington suddenly think Rhaegar had purple eyes.

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

I think that what actually comes closest to the description of "lilac" eyes are the eyes of albinos. They have very little melanin which makes their iris the palest blue that together  with the red blood shining through gives them a violet appearance, at least in certain light.

Of course, the Targaryens are not albinos, since Bloodraven was supposed to differ in appearance, and Egg got all bronze-skinned while in Dorne. But it's kinda funny how Bloodraven's appearance - including his deep red eyes - sets him apart from his kin, while irl albinos are the ones that actually can have purplish eyes.

Yeah, it is quite funny that real world albinos actually come very close to the Valyrian looks as depicted in the books. Whereas George's depiction of the albino Bloodraven is rather unrealistic, especially him being this great archer. Albinos usually have a rather poor eyesight, and it shouldn't get better when you lose an eye.

Could be that Bloodraven compensates with magic. Or George just didn't know or care about a realistic depiction of albinism when he invented him. This whole thing is part of Bloodraven being marked as a greenseer, anyway.

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

Well, I though that that particular picture was a bit strange, because Egg looked like his sons' older brother instead of a father. Also Betha and the girls were missing. Disrespect!

Yeah, I don't like that either. Could have been a larger picture with the entire royal family. At least the Summerhall picture confirms that Rhaella looked like a prototypical Targaryen. We never got a proper description for her.

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

Hm, it is possible. Although it would be surpising it has not been mentioned so far. Westeros is a very ableist society, and I can't imagine that a king with a deformed hand wouldn't have been worth notice and some slander.

Well, the man grew up to be king. And he is a Targaryen, and the Targaryens were above common men. But even if you don't care about that it is not that Jaehaerys II and his maladies are a topic that's often discussed in the books. Prior to ADwD we had only a very sketchy picture of the man. With the whole Ghost prophecy and future Dunk & Egg stories we are likely to learn a lot more in the future, but it is clear that George intended to hint at that malformed arm only very subtly.

It also makes it very likely that some or all of Rhaella's stillbirths, miscarriages and infants who died young were similarly malformed. Not to mention Tyrion.

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

In fact I was surprised that in TWoIaF, the birth of Aegon II's Jaehaerys was presented as a positive development for the Aegon faction. During real Middle Ages, it would have been deemed a sign of witchcraft and destroyed any pretender's reputation. One got to wonder how hideous Jaehaerys' hand would have to have been for him to keep it covered if the other Jaehaerys having extra fingers was no big deal.

Well, it was an issue, and might have become even more concerning had the boy lived to grow up, just as Jaehaera's mental issues would have become an issue had she ever expected to rule at the side of Aegon III or produce healthy children.

Jaehaerys II's hand on the portrait looks somewhat like a claw. He has only four fingers and a very thick and ugly thumb (somewhat looking like a penis on the picture, actually). You can see it best in the ebook version since the print edition actually seems to cut something off the picture.

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

To me the most interesting thing about Jaehaerys II is that he appears to be a precursor to Rhaegar. Both had done very foolish things in the name of love and prophecy. Jaehaerys got away with it, Rhaegar did not (I'd wager that having Egg for a father instead of Aerys helped), but the handsome, strapping tourney champion Rhaegar was much more popular than his frail grandfather had ever been.

True, but I think the real precursor to Rhaegar is Prince Duncan. He really stepped over the line by marrying a peasant (or a woman who effectively was a peasant). Jaehaerys and Shaera emulated him but while they broke their betrothals and defied their parents they did not enter into morganatic marriages thus not actually causing troubles for the succession. Duncan did - and Rhaegar would have done had he ended up having sons by two queens, etc. Not to mention that spurning a Tully and Tyrell for another Targaryen was more easily accepted even by the houses involved than spurning a Baratheon for a peasant.

One would really want to know whether Shaera also suffered from some - or even similar - afflictions as her brother-husband? Were they the Targaryen freak show of that generation? Shaera must have died young, too. We know she did survive Summerhall and I really hope she was around at court for at least the first couple of years of the reign of her son.

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

I don't think we have got a detailed description of any earlier Baratheons, but I've always assumed that they are de facto the Durrandons going by a new name. If a blue-eyed Rhaelle Targaryen and black eyed Ormund Baratheon could have had a blue-eyed son, so could had had a blue-eyed son a blue-eyed Argella Durrandon and black-eyed Orys Baratheon. It's not a hill I'm willing to die on though.

I don't recall that we know the ancient Durrandons were blue-eyed. If that was confirmed I'd go along with that idea, too. But we don't know. And blue eyes are a Valyrian trait, too. People just tend to forget that in light of all those purple eyes...