Jon Snow is Azor Ahai but Daenerys is TPTWP

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

On 31/8/2017 at 11:17 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

How about a slight twist on your theory.

Jon is Azor Ahai, Daenerys is the Prince who was Promised (who is also Nyssa Nyssa), Jon's sword is his err...you know what...and after "stabbing" Daenerys with it, she produces a child, who is the "Lightbringer" who leads Westeros to a new dawn after the Long Night. But the cost of producing Lightbringer is Daenerys (Nyssa Nyssa) dying in childbirth.

What an unsatisfactory ending (and ambiguous), we're following this generation for a reason.

On 1/9/2017 at 11:01 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

One theory that I thought that was interesting is that Rhaegar was AA/TPTWP and Lyanna was Nissa Nissa and Jon Snow was Lightbringer, the weapon that will end the Long Night.

Could be, Jon is the son of ice and fire, not his hypothetical child with Daenerys. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 9/3/2017 at 8:50 AM, irishpisano said:

Aye, the SOTM is to be a knight of House Dayne.... they can make Jon a knight..... that's semantics

 

i think the bigger part of the "requirements" is that the SOTM be deemed worthy of the title.....

Making Jon a knight still does not make him a Dayne. It has to be a member of the family. It's not knights in service to House Daynes. It's a knight of House Dayne.

I agree that being worthy is the bigger part, but unless the Daynes are just holding Dawn until the next war with the Others, the rule about only Daynes wielding it will probably stand. Some have even suggested that Darkstar was created specifically so that there would be a Dayne capable of using Dawn in the battle against the Others. Edric would have worked fine if GRRM hadn't abandoned the 5 year gap, but since ruling it out he needed another, older Dayne.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 9/3/2017 at 6:04 PM, Allardyce said:

No, this is not the case.  Daenerys woke dragons from stone.  That is not something that anyone else can do.  Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  Waking dragons from stone is the sign that proves she is Azor Ahai.  Drogo was her Nissa Nissa.

 

Correct.  Waking dragons from stone is Azor Ahai's calling card.  No one else can do that.  Only Dany has been able to do that.  No one in history and no one in the future.  Dany is Azor Ahai.  George is logical.  All signs point to Dany, Dany is Azor Ahai.  The plot twist is that she is a female.  No need for overly twisty (and hopelessly desperate) explanations like "Dany fits the signs literally, but Jon fits the signs figuratively" bullshit.  Dany checks all the boxes.  She is AA.  

[irishpisano]

8 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Correct.  Waking dragons from stone is Azor Ahai's calling card.  No one else can do that.  Only Dany has been able to do that.  No one in history and no one in the future.  Dany is Azor Ahai.  George is logical.  All signs point to Dany, Dany is Azor Ahai.  The plot twist is that she is a female.  No need for overly twisty (and hopelessly desperate) explanations like "Dany fits the signs literally, but Jon fits the signs figuratively" bullshit.  Dany checks all the boxes.  She is AA.  

Unless the "dragons from stone" is metaphorical.... then it fits the dragons (dragonglass) awoken (mined) from stone (dragonstone).......

 

If AA is the main hero in the fight against the WW, and the fight against the WW is the main conflict of the story in ASOIAF, then Jon is AA as he is main character of the overarching story in ASOIAF as he is the one in direct conflict with the WW....... and the only one who has been since, more or less, day 1.........  basic literary structure.

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

It may be that I am incorrect that Lyanna is Jon's mother and that it is in fact Ashara Dayne. It may even shed more light on the "Wylla" story. This would still mean that Jon was born in the Red Mountains amidst Salt and Smoke, so the Azor Ahai prophecy still holds. However, if Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother, then that would mean that he is a candidate to weild Dawn, because he is half Dayne. If Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother by Ned Stark then that would not only make Jon a Stark, but it would make him an even stronger candidate for Azor Ahai if he's weilding Dawn and being referred to as the Sword of the Morning. Also, if he is a Stark and marries Daenerys then that would fulfill the pact of Ice and Fire (and absolve all concerns of incest).

However, this begs the question: Who was born at the tower of Joy to Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar?  Young Griff? Darkstar? Who else is in that age range? What will happen to House Targaryen?

[irishpisano]

Good Ser Joe,

Its been a while since I've read all of the books, so I'm not fresh on all the R+L=J evidence or the Ashara Dayne connection, other than Ned being terrifyingly furious when in a Catelyn chapter she relates/remembers his reaction to her asking of AD was Jon's mother.....

 

now, I know this is not the best, but using the revelation in Season 6 about R+L=J, I believe that Ned lived his entire life after the Tower of Joy filled with incredible remorse over killing Arthur Dayne because Arthur was protecting Lyanna and Jon... in fact after the fever of war died down, Ned probably realized that were it not for Arthur, Lyanna and Jon may have been killed by Robert's (or Tywin's) people like Aegon and Rhaenys were..... the guilt, and the gratitude are probably in part why he returned Dawn to House Dayne....  once he knew that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, that she willingly bore Rhaegar's son, Ned knew that should that word ever get out, the words "Ours is the fury." would undoubtedly come to be proven right....

 

As for why Ned seemingly went into berserker mode in Catelyn's memory... he probably felt heavily responsible for Ashara's death..... he told her that her brother Arthur had died, she threw herself from the tower in a heated moment of grief, and Ned ended up blaming himself and did not want Ashara's memory tarnished by false rumors...

 

 

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[SirArthur]

I have something different that may change the perspective:

The prince that was promised is ... a prince. That may be very nitpicky here but if the prince would ever become king (or queen) he would be the king that was promised (that did this or that in his youth). Same goes with Azor Ahai. If he is born admist salt and smoke ... but at the same time reborn ... shouldn't it be pointless then how he was born because AA already lived ? And Jon is attributed with "king" (at least by Mormont's raven). So no Jon as a prince that was promised. Jon may be the king that was promised but he is not the prince. There are not many alternatives left. Dany or Aegon,first son of Rhaegar. And Aegon the Older would need a lot of explaination. That also means Dany will die and never be queen ... although she is queen of Mereen. 

And that is my core problem with this prophecy and why I think Dany is not the prince. Because she is already queen. It would need some quer logic to reduce her to prince again.  

[irishpisano]

In Westeros, neither Jon nor Dany are prince/princess as their family has lost the throne an all rights to it and their hereditary titles

HOWEVER

The Targaryen's still - legally - ruled when Jon was born as Robert had yet to take the throne... so Jon was in fact born a Prince of Westeros, 2nd in line to the Iron Throne... and that would qualify him under the moniker TPTWP but also, let's not forget, that one need not be a blood relative of the ruling king or queen to be considered a prince.

Doran and Oberyn are princes.......

and the Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church are titled "Princes of the Church"........

but we're talking about legal issues, and i doubt that the prophecy of TPTWP was made in consideration of said legalities.

 

 

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[SirArthur]

That raises the question: The prince that was promised is a prince of what exactly ?

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 9/1/2017 at 2:37 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

The first was tempering it in water, and the second was tempering it with the blood of a lion.

I know, I've been confused about tempering in water part too. Because swords are typically tempered with heat in real life (I think) so what does it mean to use water? The second part says AA drove the sword into the heart of a lion. There's a strange connection in this to Dany. Dany and Drogo consummate their marriage near a stream (water). When she becomes pregnant, Drogo goes on a hunt to kill hrakkar, a white lion (a white lion in Dothraki Sea also appears in Dany's Undying visions). Then Dany kills Drogo, and her son also dies (Nissa Nissa?). 

Why do they need the lightbringer anyway when they can use Valyrian steel or obsidian blades, and also dragons? 

On 9/1/2017 at 3:46 PM, Eltharion21 said:

Personally i believe that Azor Ahai stuff in the end will be similar to Messiah plot in Tv series "I Claudius "  in several episodes , ...

This is intriguing. I think GRRM could be going towards something like that because no one has really done that in epic fantasy.

It could be that AA is not one person. I GoT, Dany sees in one of her dreams a warrior clad is black ice. When she raises the helm she sees her own face inside. Then there's another dream that Jon has where he sees himself armored in black ice. There is a strange connection/parallel between these two. It's as if they are the same character, but with genders and realms switched. For example:

• Dany and Jon are both born after their fathers die (assuming R+L+J is true). Their mothers die soon after they are born. 
• They both have troubled childhoods. Dany is physically abused by Viserys, and Jon gets the stepmother treatment from Catelyn. (Dany's is worse though.)
• They are both displaced. Dany is kicked out of the house with the red door, and Jon is kind of forced out of Winterfell by Cat's bad treatment. 
• They try to find a new home. Dany longs for a home and so does Jon. He wants to go back to Winterfell badly but realizes he cannot because he is a "bastard." Dany is told Westeros is her home, but she feels Essos is. But she doesn't really belong where she goes either. 
• They both have special inherited powers. Dany has prophetic dreams. Jon can warg. 
• They both have special animals. Dany has her three dragons, especially Drogon. And Jon has Ghost. Dany magically hatches the three dragons, and Jon is the one who finds the direwolves. 
• They both lose their great loves. Dany loses Drogo, her first true love, and Jon loses Ygritte, his first true love.
• They end up in unexpected leadership positions. Dany ends up queen, something she never imagines she would be. Jon ends up Lord Commander when he never really intends to. 
• Their bleeding-heart liberal policies don't go well with the people. Dany's anti-slavery policies lead to domestic terrorism. Jon's pro wildling refugee stance ends up in an internal revolt. 
• They are both attacked in life-changing ways. The slaver's rebellion ends up with Dany riding off with Drogon and now she is in the middle of Dothraki Sea facing an enemy khalasar. Jon is stabbed and left for dead, and probably ends up warging with Ghost. 
• They have witches who follow them. Quaith follows Dany around and tries to help her (most likely) with prophetic warnings. Jon gets Melisandre, who definitely sees something special in him. She also tries to give Jon a prophetic warning. 

That's all I can think of for now. If they are ice and fire, they don't seem to be very much opposites of each other. Maybe more like two sides of the same coin?

[irishpisano]

Here's a question:

 

If Azor Ahai is in fact the Prince that was promised, and if Dany is TPTWP (as many people hope).... then Dany is AA reborn.............. that leads to the question:  If Dany is TPTWP/AA, then who is her Nissa Nissa?

[SirArthur]

Nissa Nissa is Nissa Nissa. Azor Ahai is born again but is Nissa Nissa ? The prophecy only tells us that he will crasp Lightbringer  . Is Lightbringer still out there or is there a need to reforge it ?

If you run around with tinfoil you could even ask if Azor Ahai come again/Azor Ahai born again still has his memories. Let's go through the prophecy:

There will come a day after a long summer  | winter is already here

when the stars bleed  | the comet ? But stars bleed not one star

and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. | the Others are coming under the protection of darkness/cold

In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. | Warrior draws a sword from a fire, there has to be fear

And that sword shall be Lightbringer, | named Lightbringer, the sword that was forged by Azor Ahai

the Red Sword of Heroes, | is there a blue sword of heroes ? This is indeed a strange line

and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, | the one who clasps it is "Azor Ahai" come again, not "Azor Ahai Come Again". Is it the original Azor Ahai ?

and the darkness shall flee before him.

 

So we have a warrior. And we have Azor Ahai. Lightbringer is not forged because that would need a long time and in that case Azor Ahai has to be the warrior. I think the text hints at a distinction.

 

Dany could very well be the warrior. She "draws" the dragons out of the fire. A Red Sword of Heroes could very well be a firebreathing dragon.

 

I don't know what hints at a need to reforge Lightbringer with Nissa Nissa.

[Damon_Tor]

On 9/3/2017 at 3:04 PM, Allardyce said:

Daenerys woke dragons from stone.

Did she?

On 9/3/2017 at 3:04 PM, Allardyce said:

That is not something that anyone else can do.

Can't they?

[irishpisano]

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

Did she?

Can't they?

The only reason people think Dany woke dragons from stone is because their eggs are described as stone....

And equal - yet metaphorical - case can be made (show spoilers) for Jon mining the DRAGONglass from dragonSTONE

 

And Dany is NOT the only one who can hatch dragons as many, many Targaryens have done this before........

 

I think, IMHO, people promoting Dany as AA or TPTWP are on average grasping at evidence and forcing it into their theory/dream, rather than letting the evidence tell them the theory......... no one that I've seen seems to look at the evidence about Nissa Nissa and how Dany fits the role of NN far far better than she does AA (assuming that AA and TPTWP are one and the same).  NN was moon goddess, wife of sun, shattered and from whence came forth dragons..... making NN the literal mother of dragons...  NN was also said to be AA's wife/love....  so the mother of dragons is the wife/lover of AA, TPTWP..........  it certainly fits for Dany...  which would then fit with her becoming Jon's lover as Jon is AATPTWP...

[MakeThemBurn]

The world of ice and fire is in a time loop where same things happen over and over again. That's why the prophecies are so vague because they are supposed to be about several people. Jon Snow is both the Last Hero and Azor Ahai. Dany is both Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai. Their child is both the Lightbringer and the Prince that was promised and he will get the throne and rebuild the Targaryen dynasty and thus end the war.

 

And no, Daenerys won't die at childbirth. (With all due respect, it makes absolutely no sense storywise or thematically). She will become the Night Queen. The end of her story was revealed in the very first book where she married the scary barbarian Khal Drogo, who foreshadowed her marriage with the Night King, who at that point will be Jon Snow. The Yi Ti explanation of the Long Night is about Jon and Dany. Their child is destined to rebuild the Targaryen dynasty. And due to Dany's brutal nature when she was alive, she is able to secure the freedom of the slaves and the safety of her children by becoming the undead Night Queen. No one will dare to touch her children (her real ones or the freed slaves) knowing that she would be enraged and return with the dead.

 

But, as the world is in a time loop, the day will come when the threat from the north has become a myth yet again, and the Targs are killed yet again and the dead arrive yet again (due to Night Queen Dany owing to her promise at the end of book 1: "Those who would harm you will die screaming").

[Damon_Tor]

5 minutes ago, MakeThemBurn said:

The world of ice and fire is in a time loop where same things happen over and over again.

Eh. That would be way too derivative of Jordan's novels. There's obvious influence there, but I don't think GRRM would rip the central premise that way. It's more likely, IMO, that the Long Night never happened, that history and prophecy have become conflated.

55 minutes ago, MakeThemBurn said:

And no, Daenerys won't die at childbirth. (With all due respect, it makes absolutely no sense storywise or thematically).

It's one of the few things the only thing I'm almost 100% sure about, but everyone has their own story in their head at this point. I feel like GRRM set us all up for disappointment with how long the series is taking: we've all ended it ourselves. No matter how good the ending he has planned will be, 99% of the fan base (at least those who care enough to thing about how it could end) will wind up disappointed because they've become so invested in the story they've written for themselves.

Sometimes I wonder if he did that on purpose. I wonder if me plans to die with the novels unfinished for exactly this reason.

[MakeThemBurn]

3 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Eh. That would be way too derivative of Jordan's novels. There's obvious influence there, but I don't think GRRM would rip the central premise that way. It's more likely, IMO, that the Long Night never happened, that history and prophecy have become conflated.

 

It's not just the Long Night. Everything in this story has happened before. Winters keep coming time and time again. House Stark has a dozen Brandon Starks, House Lannister has had Tyrion Lannisters in their family tree. House Targaryen faced Doom in Valyria and was rebuilt by a few survivors on the other side of the world with three dragons. At the start of this story they are killed yet again only for House Targaryen to be rebuilt by the surviving Targs living on the other side of the world with three dragons. The seven gods of the faith are about our heroes (Maiden/Sansa, Mother/Dany, Father/Jon, Stranger/Night King, Crone/Melisandre, Warrior/Jaime, Smith/Gendry). The story is a time loop and there are several references about how songs have already been sung.

 

I'd also like to add that since Sansa and Gendry are mentioned as one of the seven gods of the faith, I find it plausible that Sansa is the younger more beautiful queen who sits on the throne with Gendry until baby Targ is of age to rule. This would also unite the Houses that tore House Targaryen down to rebuild it. Interestingly, Tyrion is not mentioned but Jaime is, which makes me believe that tyrion will indeed betray Dany as suggested in the books by Quaithe.

[irishpisano]

I don't think the world is a timeloop as there's little to no evidence of this - and agreed, it would be too similar to Jordan's works...

 

i also do not think there is any Night Queen as that would be too far out of left field this late into the story.... it would be incredibly similar to the introduction of horcruxes in book 6........ like where the eff were they for the first 5 books?  (besides the diary)

 

 

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Edited 7 hours ago by irishpisano

[Damon_Tor]

59 minutes ago, MakeThemBurn said:

It's not just the Long Night. Everything in this story has happened before. Winters keep coming time and time again.

Weird, Winters keep coming in our world too. Are we in a time loop?

1 hour ago, MakeThemBurn said:

House Stark has a dozen Brandon Starks, House Lannister has had Tyrion Lannisters in their family tree.

And how many William Windsors have there been? Or Georges, or Edwards, or any of the other names the royals like to give themselves? People naming their children after their famous ancestors doesn't require a magical explanation, and it isn't evidence of a temporal anomaly.

1 hour ago, MakeThemBurn said:

The seven gods of the faith are about our heroes (Maiden/Sansa, Mother/Dany, Father/Jon, Stranger/Night King, Crone/Melisandre, Warrior/Jaime, Smith/Gendry).

Speculation. Show-based speculation at that because "The Night's King" is a legendary figure in the novels who hasn't made an appearance, and we have no reason to believe he will (and some reason to believe he won't, based on some stuff GRRM has said on the topic). And I take some issue with assigning Jon the role of the father, when he isn't one, and has sworn never to become one. At least for Daenerys you can point to the fact that she's called "Mysha" and "Mother of Dragons" as evidence, but Jon bears no fatherly titles.

[MakeThemBurn]

17 minutes ago, irishpisano said:

i also do not think there is any Night Queen as that would be too far out of left field this late into the story.... it would be incredibly similar to the introduction of horcruxes in book 6........ like where the eff were they for the first 5 books?  (besides the diary)

Too far out, like introducing the return of Aegon Targaryen in book 5? (Although this was mentioned back in book 2 in a Dany chapter). The Night's King is first talked about in book 2 and his queen is brought up in the very next sentence of that description. This is quite important since the books talk little of the Night's King. But the little they talk, they speak of him and his queen.