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Where are the nerdy girls?


Manderly's Rat Cook

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31 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Perhaps you should read all my comments on this thread before replying. I'm talking about clear straightforward mentions of girls/women being bookish. I think I've put in quite a bit of effort into showing how there is a huge difference in this regard between male and female characters, and I like to find out why. There is absolutely no need for you to be rude about my knowledge of the books. 

No I read all of them. Just disregarding your preference. GRRM is huge on inference so when we see women reading, begging for books, or desiring to read it's all in the same grouping. There's a huge difference because GRRM is a guy and he won't admit to struggling writing women (he claims the opposite and I agree), but it doesn't mean he fleshes them out as fully.

I'm not being rude about your knowledge of the books. I am pointing out huge holes in them. If you take that to be rude, then so be it.

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21 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

I'd guess at 2. In a misogynistic society, the interests of women probably aren't deemed to be of much interest unless they affect the world of men. Also showing women to be the intellectual equals of men, especially when achieved without any possibility of being to access the resources of the maester order, undermines the Citadel's men-only policy.

Yes I also think this it at least part of the reason they don't seem to be included in the histories. It has always annoyed me that Dany never truly starts to read the books Jorah gave her, except the fairytale style one. GRRM probably wanted to save the information in these books for Tyrion's chapters, but it would've been nice (in my opinion) if Dany had made some more attempts to read in them.

6 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

@Manderly's Rat Cook

I didn't realize this until you brought it up. Indeed, there doesn't seem to be any important bookish girl characters. The others mentioned here, like Arianne and Shiera, are barely mentioned in the show. I suppose some of these male readers, like Sam, GRRM has fashioned after himself, sort of. But it's interesting that there are no female equivalents. It would really have been nice to see. But one might still pop up in the final two books. 

Yeah I've read the books about six times, and only realised this recently, so it's not overtly obvious I suppose. The ones I can count are Shiera, Missandei, and Sarella, and shiera's love for reading is only mentioned in an SSM, and Sarella's interest in history is merely hinted at.

Missandei appears to be the only one who is portrayed in the books as someone who dedicates herself to studying.

I still feel we can't count Arianne, who, despite being locked up for probably a month or so, she doesn't really read the books in her room. The fact that she had read books in the past, and has favourite books, doesn't indicate a particular interest in reading. She seems more like a casual reader to me. 

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19 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

No I read all of them. Just disregarding your preference. GRRM is huge on inference so when we see women reading, begging for books, or desiring to read it's all in the same grouping. There's a huge difference because GRRM is a guy and he won't admit to struggling writing women (he claims the opposite and I agree), but it doesn't mean he fleshes them out as fully.

I'm not being rude about your knowledge of the books. I am pointing out huge holes in them. If you take that to be rude, then so be it.

I think you simply don't understand my point then. I am not saying GRRM fleshes out characters, especially not female ones. I'm also not saying women in Westeros don't like to read. I've put up an open question about something I've been wondering about, and have carefully reviewed all suggestions made by others, and done a lot of searches, and carefully compared the descriptions regarding reading of both men and women, and I cannot draw any other conclusion at this point that female interest in reading is described less straightforward than the male equivalent.

If you're referring to Arianne begging for books; she doesn't. At least not on page. She thinks about wanting other books, but we don't see her asking for them. Besides, most people would like to have books when they're locked up, even casual readers, because being locked up for weeks on end is awfully boring. Instead we see her not reading the books she's been given, and wishing for lighter material. That doesn't sound like a book nerd to me, but rather someone who likes to read occasionally, like most people.

There simply is nothing to suggest that Arianne is an avid reader, and the very few other women who like to read a lot, are either very cryptically described as readers, and for one of them this information is even excluded from the books. This is all very different to the bookish males. I have a hard time understanding how you can not see my point, given all the information I've provided in my previous posts, and how you can turn this into me saying that Martin trying to flesh out characters, while I've specifically stated several reasons that I can think of. 

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22 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I think you simply don't understand my point then. I am not saying GRRM fleshes out characters, especially not female ones. I'm also not saying women in Westeros don't like to read. I've put up an open question about something I've been wondering about, and have carefully reviewed all suggestions made by others, and done a lot of searches, and carefully compared the descriptions regarding reading of both men and women, and I cannot draw any other conclusion at this point that female interest in reading is described less straightforward than the male equivalent.

If you're referring to Arianne begging for books; she doesn't. At least not on page. She thinks about wanting other books, but we don't see her asking for them. Besides, most people would like to have books when they're locked up, even casual readers, because being locked up for weeks on end is awfully boring. Instead we see her not reading the books she's been given, and wishing for lighter material. That doesn't sound like a book nerd to me, but rather someone who likes to read occasionally, like most people.

There simply is nothing to suggest that Arianne is an avid reader, and the very few other women who like to read a lot, are either very cryptically described as readers, and for one of them this information is even excluded from the books. This is all very different to the bookish males. I have a hard time understanding how you can not see my point, given all the information I've provided in my previous posts, and how you can turn this into me saying that Martin trying to flesh out characters, while I've specifically stated several reasons that I can think of. 

Then your conclusion and my conclusions will never align, based on the text we've been given. Your definition of nerd appears to far outstrip mine and I am a book nerd. I see it all over the text. If you don't, nothing I say or do will ever convince you. I doubt GRRM could either

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8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Then your conclusion and my conclusions will never align, based on the text we've been given. Your definition of nerd appears to far outstrip mine and I am a book nerd. I see it all over the text. If you don't, nothing I say or do will ever convince you. I doubt GRRM could either

I don't think we disagree on what the word nerd means, I think you're just too set on my usage of the word 'nerdy' in the thread title. I've tried to explain that I'm focusing explicitly on characters being avid readers in this thread, because we have very clear examples on the male side to make a comparison to, and plenty of them too. If we would include other interests or casually reading the subject would become too broad and blurry. 

We know both (highborn) boys and girls are taught how to read, because it's a useful skill. They could theoretically all have their maesters read and write their letters, like Cotter Pyke, but clearly the ability to read is deemed important enough to be a necessity for Lords and Ladies (and steward's daughters apparently). We are introduced to casual readers both male and female, but there are few characters who are so interested in reading that they dedicate most of their spare time to it. Even excluding Tyrion and Sam, the male examples are much more clearly described.

Alayaya is learning to read, and enjoys the idea of being able to read a book, so she might become an avid reader, but she isn't yet, so we don't know. We have to guess how much she would actually like to read, and how much time she would eventually spend on it. 

Quote

She raised her arms and stretched like some sleek black cat. "Sleep. I am much better rested since you began to visit us, my lord. And Marei is teaching us to read, perhaps soon I will be able to pass the time with a book."

Apparently Chataya has decided that being able to read is a useful skill for prostitutes, and although Alayaya looks forward to read books, this may well be an indication that Chataya's girls are spies. So we don't know if Alayaya has always wished to read, and we also don't know (yet) why this information was put in the books. 

I like Alayaya's character a lot, and respect her wish to read a lot, but unfortunately we don't know enough about the extent of her desire to read to conclude whether it's something she absolutely loved doing or not.

I'm not trying to put the women who read in the books down, but I do miss having very clear cut cases of female reading obsession. 

Davos is also trying to learn how to read, but it doesn't make him an avid reader, Sweetrobin likes to have the same stories read to him over and over again, but that doesn't make him an avid reader either.. 

I do think GRRM has a reason for being more ambiguous about his description of women who like to read, and the exclusion of those women in the history books. I also don't think this reason is misogyny by GRRM, since he makes strong, independent and intelligent women an important pillar of his work, however I do think he does this to very subtly point out in-world misogyny.

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3 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Yeah I agree that Arianne is intelligent. She doesn't try to read the books everyday though...

I had a look back, and it's not clear how much reading Arianne did in the tower - probably more than your estimate and less than mine.

  • The first day, she couldn't read for crying.
  • This quote: 'During the daylight hours she would try to read' comes later, when she describes the routines of her imprisonment - the meals, the baths, the servants. Plus pacing and plotting, of course, but she has limited time with the servants.
  • It's only after she's lost count of the days that she slides into her hunger strike.

It annoys me a little that we don't know if Arianne got to grips with these books or not, because books are clearly one of the tricks the author uses to reveal character, and maybe hint to the future too.

Doran gave her a cyvasse set, challenging her to show some interest in strategy. She fails that test, admitting she's not good enough to win - which of course reflects on her ability as a player of the game of thrones.

We can assume Doran chose the books as well - all the subjects that the ruler of Dorne needs to know. If she'd completely failed that test too, I think he might have sidelined her. Instead, he promotes her - so I'm guessing she did just enough to impress him. He must have liked all the plotting too, he was definitely keeping a watch on that!

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39 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Don't bother. We still disagree

Well it's rather hard to come to an agreement if you don't explain yourself other than saying my conclusion is full of holes. If you would provide quotes that discredit my statements, they're more than welcome, because I've been trying to find these quotes myself, but I can only find quotes that seem to reinforce my belief, and I've posted every relevant quote on this thread, except for some quotes that have been provided by others, and I've adressed nearly every part on this thread in my replies. I'm very open to be proven wrong,  but I haven't been able to prove myself wrong. 

15 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I had a look back, and it's not clear how much reading Arianne did in the tower - probably more than your estimate and less than mine.

  • The first day, she couldn't read for crying.
  • This quote: 'During the daylight hours she would try to read' comes later, when she describes the routines of her imprisonment - the meals, the baths, the servants. Plus pacing and plotting, of course, but she has limited time with the servants.
  • It's only after she's lost count of the days that she slides into her hunger strike.

It annoys me a little that we don't know if Arianne got to grips with these books or not, because books are clearly one of the tricks the author uses to reveal character, and maybe hint to the future too.

You may be right, but it's pretty vague. I mean,  what does "tried to read" mean? Did she read our not? Did she open the books and stare at a page? Did she read little pieces of info? Did she read the entire books? We simply don't know... It does come off as if she didn't read much though. 

15 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Doran gave her a cyvasse set, challenging her to show some interest in strategy. She fails that test, admitting she's not good enough to win - which of course reflects on her ability as a player of the game of thrones.

We can assume Doran chose the books as well - all the subjects that the ruler of Dorne needs to know. If she'd completely failed that test too, I think he might have sidelined her. Instead, he promotes her - so I'm guessing she did just enough to impress him. He must have liked all the plotting too, he was definitely keeping a watch on that!

Yeah I suppose she must've done something right. I think Doran may also recognises her talent for winning people's trust,  and have them do things for her, as a valuable asset.

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40 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Apparently Chataya has decided that being able to read is a useful skill for prostitutes, and although Alayaya looks forward to read books, this may well be an indication that Chataya's girls are spies. So we don't know if Alayaya has always wished to read, and we also don't know (yet) why this information was put in the books. 

Alayaya is Chataya's daughter, isn't she? The surprising thing is that Chataya hadn't already pushed her into studying, so that she might one day inherit the business. Anyway, this throwaway line about reading probably had a big effect on Tyrion - he goes to extreme lengths to protect his fellow reader from Cersei.

(I wouldn't be at all surprised if Chataya trained her girls to spy, but she'd have to be very discreet about using the information, or lose her custom.)

Back to the big picture - I think no-one bothers to call girls bookish because reading is a quiet, clean, gentle activity, normal for women and non-manly men like the maesters. Boys are called bookish because preferring books to action breaks the 'normal' pattern - Sam's father was enraged at the idea of Sam becoming a maester, it wasn't macho enough.

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Melisandre can read future on the flames.

Beside it, many book titles mentioned in asoiaf books are about history. There are also some books about Faith religion. Why do you expect that Sansa, Cersei and Margaery should want to read them? These girls are not interested in history, politics or religion and I am sure that they spent their childhood reading such books. If there was a love story book about Florian or Dragonknight Sansa would definitely read it.

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13 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Alayaya is Chataya's daughter, isn't she? The surprising thing is that Chataya hadn't already pushed her into studying, so that she might one day inherit the business. Anyway, this throwaway line about reading probably had a big effect on Tyrion - he goes to extreme lengths to protect his fellow reader from Cersei.

(I wouldn't be at all surprised if Chataya trained her girls to spy, but she'd have to be very discreet about using the information, or lose her custom.)

It's possible Chataya can't read herself, since it's not Chataya, but Marei teaching "us" (which may include Chataya) to read. I think lots of people run businesses without being able to read and write.

Tobho Mott doesn't teach Gendry to read, even though he seems to be aware that Gendry is Robert's Bastard, and he is one of the best paid smiths in Westeros. It could also have been pleasing to Robert if Mott had the talented Gendry inherit his shop (if he didn't have any sons himself) or had prepared Gendry for running a business of his own - which I think he does. 

A possible reason why Chataya's girls are learning to read now is this:

Quote

"Chataya runs a choice establishment," Littlefinger said as they rode. "I've half a mind to buy it. Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else." Lord Petyr chuckled at his own wit.

13 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Back to the big picture - I think no-one bothers to call girls bookish because reading is a quiet, clean, gentle activity, normal for women and non-manly men like the maesters. Boys are called bookish because preferring books to action breaks the 'normal' pattern - Sam's father was enraged at the idea of Sam becoming a maester, it wasn't macho enough.

Yes this is definitely one of the possibilities I consider, although I also think that hotels who read am awful lot would probably be seen as a threat. 

I do think Dany would've been the perfect female character to be an avid reader, but I think GRRM may have chosen to not have her read a lot, because that way she would've known too much about her family. She needed to be ignorant of certain things for plot reasons. But if you look at her character and knowledge of high Valerian, she actually comes off as a well read character, especially in AGOT. If you take her lack of formal education into consideration, and the fact that she has been taught mostly by Viserys, it's pretty odd that she's a knowledgeable and wise as she is . On top of that she's strongly linked to Rhaegar , who is described as bookish.

My guess is that GRRM intended her to be bookish as well, but changed it because it would make her lack of knowledge about her father odd.

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23 minutes ago, Grazdan zo Azer said:

Melisandre can read future on the flames.

Reading the flames is definitely a skill that requires lots of training, just like swordfighting, which we also see multiple women do. 

23 minutes ago, Grazdan zo Azer said:

Beside it, many book titles mentioned in asoiaf books are about history. There are also some books about Faith religion. Why do you expect that Sansa, Cersei and Margaery should want to read them? These girls are not interested in history, politics or religion and I am sure that they spent their childhood reading such books. If there was a love story book about Florian or Dragonknight Sansa would definitely read it.

Why wouldn't there be girls who wanted to gain knowledge on history? It's not a thing only men are interested in. And more importantly, why wouldn't there be more mention of bookish women in the history books, and why is the interest they do have in reading described more cryptically than the same interest in men? If you read through the entire thread you see the differences. 

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19 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

One thing that didn't always stand out to me, but that I recently became aware of, is that there are no nerdy /bookish girls or women in ASOIAF. Or at least, we never hear about them. We do hear about certain girls and women who like to fight, like Lyanna, Brienne, Arya, Asha, multiple sand snakes and the spearwives. 

[...]

Did I miss something, or are Westerosi women just not that interested in literature? 

There is the Mad Maid of Oldtown, Malora Hightower, who stays up with her father up in the apartments of the actual Hightower, surrounded by her books.  Other's mentioned Asha Greyjoy, who is both a hot pirate chick sea captain and a lover of books. 

Sad to say, but I think a lot of the blue-stocking girls among the Westerosi nobility probably get shunted off into the convent. 

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31 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

There is the Mad Maid of Oldtown, Malora Hightower, who stays up with her father up in the apartments of the actual Hightower, surrounded by her books.  Other's mentioned Asha Greyjoy, who is both a hot pirate chick sea captain and a lover of books. 

Sad to say, but I think a lot of the blue-stocking girls among the Westerosi nobility probably get shunted off into the convent. 

Ah yes the Mad Maid could be a booklover but it's not entirely clear if only Lord Leyton reads a lot, or they both do. The description below doesn't really clarify that, sadly. It's again an assumption we need to make, instead of it being straightforwardly declared. It's just really weird! 

Quote

"To be sure. Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be he'll raise an army from the deeps. Or not. Baelor's building galleys, Gunthor has charge of the harbor, Garth is training new recruits, and Humfrey's gone to Lys to hire sellsails. If he can winkle a proper fleet out of his whore of a sister, we can start paying back the ironmen with some of their own coin. Till then, the best we can do is guard the sound and wait for the bitch queen in King's Landing to let Lord Paxter off his leash."

AFFC - Samwell V

I'm not entirely convinced about Asha, she does appear to enjoy reading, but the one chapter where it's mentioned is also used to make a point of how much more the Reader reads... 

Quote

And now Lord Rodrik has a second half-mad widowed sister beneath his roof, Asha reflected. Small wonder if he seeks solace in his books.

...

It was good to walk these halls again. Ten Towers had always felt like home to Asha, more so than Pyke. Not one castle, ten castles squashed together, she had thought, the first time she had seen it. She remembered breathless races up and down the steps and along wallwalks and covered bridges, fishing off the Long Stone Quay, days and nights lost amongst her uncle's wealth of books. 

...

The Book Tower was the fattest of the ten, octagonal in shape and made with great blocks of hewn stone. The stair was built within the thickness of the walls. Asha climbed quickly, to the fifth story and the room where her uncle read. Not that there are any rooms where he does not read. Lord Rodrik was seldom seen without a book in hand, be it in the privy, on the deck of his Sea Song, or whilst holding audience. Asha had oft seen him reading on his high seat beneath the silver scythes. He would listen to each case as it was laid before him, pronounce his judgment . . . and read a bit whilst his captain-of-guards went to bring in the next supplicant.

AFFC - The kraken's daughter

It's like saying someone has a nice singing voice and then making a point of how spectacular the voice of someone else is. It makes the first seem much less impressive. 

You may well be right about the convent though. 

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9 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Reading the flames is definitely a skill that requires lots of training, just like swordfighting, which we also see multiple women do. 

Why wouldn't there be girls who wanted to gain knowledge on history? It's not a thing only men are interested in. And more importantly, why wouldn't there be more mention of bookish women in the history books, and why is the interest they do have in reading described more cryptically than the same interest in men? If you read through the entire thread you see the differences. 

That made me think, that and the comment you were responding to. Remember we're dealing with a medieval culture where first of all girls will not be encouraged in scholarly pursuits because their sole purpose is to grow up, be married well, and produce heirs. But second, and this is a major factor for girls like Sansa, much of the history comes down through songs and other forms of oral tradition. Come to think of it, this may be a major factor for most Westerosi. Why bury your nose in a scroll when there's a singer or storyteller who can make it come alive in a way that ink on the page doesn't for you? The stories presented that way are part of the entertainment for their culture and society.

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20 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

@Manderly's Rat Cook Reading is not an acceptible past time for men. At least not for the high nobility. Invariably, the term "bookish" is used as a derogatory. It might be seen as acceptible for younger sons and/or lesser nobility, or among the middle class for them to make a living. I imagine most of the lowborn, normally, never see a book.

Pretty much this.  This is a society where practical and for men martial skills are valued and reading as a hobby is not particularly valued or encouraged, except in a utilitarian sense in the guise of the maesters, who are really a servant class albeit a privileged one.

OP: In ASOIAF there are a handful of men who are described as bookish or for whom reading forms a part of their core identity.  Tyrion and Sam are very atypical men whose interests and circumstances make them poor candidates for the warrior elite and they fall back on study and learning to fill a gap. And let's remember Randyl Tarly's reaction when Sam told him he wanted to be a maester.  Rodrik "The Reader" is something of an exception in that his sobriquet seems to single him out as a very learned man, but is this as much as he is an exception among the ultra-non-bookish Ironborn as a true sage (in the kingdom of the Blind the one-eyed man is king sort of thing)?

Perhaps GRRM thought the portrayal of a bookish female character didn't chime with the society he is representing.  After all, women in Planetos have less need for access to books for learning the art of ruling than men and no possibility of becoming maesters so the professional career reason for emphasising reading is denied to them (though Essos seems to differ from Westeros here at least in the person of Missandei).  Maybe GRRM simply doesn't have a plot reason for one of his female characters being bookish - Sam's plot reason is to go to the Citadel (where he currently is), and Tyrion's could well be to learn something pivotal about dragons or merely to provide exposition to the reader.  Or perhaps he simply didn't find a bookish side to one of his female pov characters necessary or credible (Arya or Asha bookish?  Doesn't really fit with their characters).

16 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Reading the flames is definitely a skill that requires lots of training, just like swordfighting, which we also see multiple women do. 

Why wouldn't there be girls who wanted to gain knowledge on history? It's not a thing only men are interested in. And more importantly, why wouldn't there be more mention of bookish women in the history books, and why is the interest they do have in reading described more cryptically than the same interest in men? If you read through the entire thread you see the differences. 

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here: that the world book was written in such a way as to reveal an unconscious bias against learned or bookish women or perhaps to deliberately suppress any record of them?  Or that GRRM hasn't given enough representation to the bookish female in series and the supporting works to be realistic, which I think you are suggesting would amount to no more that a minor flaw in his world building (certainly not his own mindset)?  The latter is a very subjective view of course and different readers may just have different views of what the society GRRM is portraying should look like and how individuals should behave.

On 31/08/2017 at 11:51 AM, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Thank you @Walda this was what I was getting at basically. Highborn women seem to have the same access to books as men, and don't have to ask permission or hide their interest in books to anyone, and yet we are introduced in a very straightforward way to bookish male characters, and for the female characters we have to make assumptions in order to conclude whether they're bookish or not.

Like Sarella, who presumably likes reading/learning, but it's not clearly stated. She may well be in the Citadel on Oberyn's orders in order to find certain specific information. We don't know if she's truly there out of interest in literature. We can only assume she is.

Likewise we can also assume Doran is a bookish man, because he locks Arianne up with boring books that he has presumably read himself. Yet he's not introduced to us as a bookish person so it would still be an assumption. He could for instance only read as a means to am end, rather than out of genuine interest. 

A very minor make character like Hoster Blackwood on the other hand is directly and unquestionably introduced as bookish. Without major changes to the story Hoster could've been a bookish girl, and yet he isn't. 

It makes me wonder if there's a reason for this, and what that reason would be, that's why I made this thread. 

 

@The Sleeper

 

I myself was a very bookish girl. When I was 11 I grabbed Umberto Eco's "The name of the Rose" from my parents, and struggled through it, simply because I had read all my own books plenty of times. The name of the rose is a pretty tough book to read, even for adults. At the same age I was allowed to rent adult books from my local library, because I had read all the children's books they had. I was an obsessive reader. Tyrion, Sam, the Reader and Hoster Blackwood strike me as being similar to young me, but I haven't found any female character that seems to have that same reading drive.

I do think most of the female characters are intelligent, which is why I find it so odd that none of them seems to have this particular interest (without having to make assumptions). 

I think you suggested a few reasons upthread but what is your gut feel?

To your reply to The Sleeper: it feels like you are projecting a bit and looking for a character you can identify with.  I'm not sure that's a good way to look at it as despite the multitude of characters GRRM can't cover every angle which is what this may simply boil down to.  If a bookish female served a plot purpose we would have one but he hasn't gone out of his way to write one to nod to a part of his readership group.

Sorry if I've misunderstood you at all.

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14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That made me think, that and the comment you were responding to. Remember we're dealing with a medieval culture where first of all girls will not be encouraged in scholarly pursuits because their sole purpose is to grow up, be married well, and produce heirs. But second, and this is a major factor for girls like Sansa, much of the history comes down through songs and other forms of oral tradition. Come to think of it, this may be a major factor for most Westerosi. Why bury your nose in a scroll when there's a singer or storyteller who can make it come alive in a way that ink on the page doesn't for you? The stories presented that way are part of the entertainment for their culture and society.

Yeah storytelling is a big deal in Westeros indeed, Bran definitely prefers Old Nan's stories to reading. There's always those few that just have to read like a crazy person though. 

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Pretty much this.  This is a society where practical and for men martial skills are valued and reading as a hobby is not particularly valued or encouraged, except in a utilitarian sense in the guise of the maesters, who are really a servant class albeit a privileged one.

I personally don't interpret it as derogatory. It seems to be just stated as a fact. Except Randyl Tarly we don't really meet anyone who looks down on people who read. Sam and Tyrion are outcasts for other reasons than their interest in books, as far as I can tell. And I also don't think the Maesters would use being bookish as a derogatory term, since it's something that's highly valued in their order. If I recall right they describe Aemon as follows "Aemon, a bookish boy, who was later raised to Maester" or something along those lines. ^_^

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

OP: In ASOIAF there are a handful of men who are described as bookish or for whom reading forms a part of their core identity.  Tyrion and Sam are very atypical men whose interests and circumstances make them poor candidates for the warrior elite and they fall back on study and learning to fill a gap. And let's remember Randyl Tarly's reaction when Sam told him he wanted to be a maester.  Rodrik "The Reader" is something of an exception in that his sobriquet seems to single him out as a very learned man, but is this as much as he is an exception among the ultra-non-bookish Ironborn as a true sage (in the kingdom of the Blind the one-eyed man is king sort of thing)?

Randyl Tarly is a bit of a special case, anyway IMHO,  but I think his main problem with Sam wanting to be a maester is wearing a chain and accepting a life of servitude (although ironically the night's watch is a life of servitude as well). He also had major problems with Sam's love for dancing, singing and general weakness, cowardice and fatness. Had Sam been an avid reader, but also a capable fighter like Rhaegar,I don't think Randyl would've had issues with it. We have no examples of him trying to stop Sam from reading, it's just the feminine/weak side of Sam he tries to change (in a rather destructive manner. 

Tywin also doesn't have problems with Tyrion's reading, it's mostly his whoring, dwarfism, and threats against his family that Tywin hates. 

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Perhaps GRRM thought the portrayal of a bookish female character didn't chime with the society he is representing.  After all, women in Planetos have less need for access to books for learning the art of ruling than men and no possibility of becoming maesters so the professional career reason for emphasising reading is denied to them (though Essos seems to differ from Westeros here at least in the person of Missandei).  Maybe GRRM simply doesn't have a plot reason for one of his female characters being bookish - Sam's plot reason is to go to the Citadel (where he currently is), and Tyrion's could well be to learn something pivotal about dragons or merely to provide exposition to the reader.  Or perhaps he simply didn't find a bookish side to one of his female pov characters necessary or credible (Arya or Asha bookish?  Doesn't really fit with their characters).

No Arya and Asha definitely wouldn't fit, although Asha does remember getting lost in Rodrik's books as a child. A huge part of their plot revolves around them challenging the female stereotype of physical weakness. 

Dany however would fit very well as a bookish girl, because of her similarities to Rhaegar, her intelligence, and the fact that she does seem to know quite a bit more about a wide variety of things, than I think Viserys (not having properly finished his own education) could've taught her. 

I think the main reason GRRM didn't make her a particularly bookish character, is that she has to be ignorant of much of her family history, Valyria, and Westeros, for her plot. 

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here: that the world book was written in such a way as to reveal an unconscious bias against learned or bookish women or perhaps to deliberately suppress any record of them?  Or that GRRM hasn't given enough representation to the bookish female in series and the supporting works to be realistic, which I think you are suggesting would amount to no more that a minor flaw in his world building (certainly not his own mindset)?  The latter is a very subjective view of course and different readers may just have different views of what the society GRRM is portraying should look like and how individuals should behave.

I think you suggested a few reasons upthread but what is your gut feel?

I actually think there's a combination of reasons (thanks to this thread, that helped me shape my thoughts on this).

1. I think the Maesters de withhold information on female booklovers in their histories. I think they do this in multiple ways:

A. They exclude many women from the histories, that have played much larger parts than we're led to believe. Like Shiera Seastar.

B. There are multiple women said to practise the dark arts, or described as being mad, who may actually have simply been knowledgeable (which would be perceived as a threat).

C. Books by female writers are kind of 'usurped'. I personally think some women have written books under make pseudonyms, others are rewritten as if being written by a man/maester, and I also think secret female maesters happen more often. In the Vatican there used to be (and I think there still is) a sort of Grope the Pope practise to make sure he wasn't secretly a woman (which has also happened). Seeing how many women (temporarily) take male identities in ASOIAF, this isn't that big of a stretch I reckon.

 

2. GRRM as plot reasons to not make certain characters bookish, or straightforwardly calling them that, like in the case of Sarella and Dany.

3. Not many people would pay attention to women reading a lot, since it's an acceptable pastime for them, and when they manage to gain considerable influence because of their knowledge, they're rumored to practise dark arts, and have mysterious evil influence rather than being just smart, because obviously smart women are evil creatures in Westerosi society, and can't possibly be good advisors. :rolleyes:

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

To your reply to The Sleeper: it feels like you are projecting a bit and looking for a character you can identify with.  I'm not sure that's a good way to look at it as despite the multitude of characters GRRM can't cover every angle which is what this may simply boil down to.  If a bookish female served a plot purpose we would have one but he hasn't gone out of his way to write one to nod to a part of his readership group.

Sorry if I've misunderstood you at all.

No that's not it, I merely wanted to figure out the plot reason's for it (although I would enjoy a bookish female, hoping for Sarella to turn out genius). It's more curiosity, than feeling unrepresented or something. There are plenty of strong, intelligent women to identify with, they don't need to have the exact same interests as I do. 

My curiosity about this subject is mostly satisfied for now to be fair, because the combination of reasons I mentioned above feels like a thorough enough answer to my own question. :-)

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On 8/31/2017 at 8:23 AM, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

We also have Rodrik the Reader, and Hoster Blackwood. Rhaegar is specifically described as being bookish until he found out he had to learn how to fight, because a book told him so. Maester Aemon is also described as having been a bookish boy, and he expresses that he misses reading a lot.

Here's a search of people specifically described as bookish:

As you can see NONE of these are women, and these are quite a few. Not to mention all the men who may be described with words other than bookish (like Rodrik Harlaw), and at least a large part of the maesters and writers. I don't think it can be disputed that being bookish is (almost) exclusively used to describe males rather than females. 

I like to speculate (with other posters) about the reasons for this, as I mentioned before. 

Obviously part of the reason is that more historical males are included in the histories than females, but other reasons can play a part as well.

1. It's possible that Martin simply didn't think about including more, or more obvious female booklovers.

2. The Maesters purposefully exclude information about women being avid readers from the histories.

3. Reading is not as acceptable a pastime as it is for men, so families would discourage avid reading by women, and hide this to the outside world (nothing in the books seems to indicate this though). 

4. Reading is such a common pastime among women, that it's not worth remarking upon, while it's more uncommon for men to spend their free time reading (the lack of female bookloving POVs seems to contradict this a little though).

5. Other reasons I can't think of. 

I'm going to guess a mixture of 1 and a bit of 3.  I think maybe girls are not expected or encouraged to read, at least for pleasure, and so therefore generally don't.  Also, reading is an activity done in the privacy of the home, so maesters and the like wouldn't have information on it.  Plus, given the patriarchal nature of the society, most of the people they write about are going to be about men in any case

Also, except for POVs, Martin hasn't really given us much info about the private lives of girls.  And many of the POVs aren't book types.  Cersei, Sansa, Arianne probably wouldn't read even today.  Arya is inquisitive enough, but I don't think has the patience or attention span for it, and Asha is too action-oriented.  Given her knowledge of politics and history, I expect that Catelyn has probably read extensively, although that may be a legacy of her being Hoster's heir for much of her adolescence.   I also think Brienne might have been a reader, but we have no real information about her life in Tarth.

So I think it is a mixture of blind spots on Martin's end, and the fact that most of the characters are men (there are roughly 4 times as many male as female characters).  Combine that with the general difficulty of obtaining reading material, a possible lack of free time, and the fact that we don't see the private lives of many of the characters, I'm not too surprised that we haven't seen much bookishness in either sex.  

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20 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Remember we're dealing with a medieval culture where first of all girls will not be encouraged in scholarly pursuits because their sole purpose is to grow up, be married well, and produce heirs.

Well yes, but in real medieval culture the church controlled literacy to a great extent, and had a very strong belief in the inferiority of women, so, for example, at the wedding of Lionel of Antwerp (that the purple wedding seems to be loosely based on) the tables full of wedding guests were divided by gender, men on one side, women on the other. Girls, if they were educated at all, were typically given girl's education, and it was not extraordinary for even noblewomen to be illiterate while their brothers were scholars.

And yet we have Christine de Pizan, Marie de France, Margery Kempe, Julian of Norwich, Angela of Foligno, Margurite Porete, women writing books that were read and transcribed and distributed in their day. Some women combined a life of service to the church with authorship, like Hildegard of Bingen, and Bridget of Sweden.

My list is very far from an exhaustive one of all known female authors, and the reason I've not included Heloise is because in her time, her writings were an intensely private correspondence. She absolutely was a scholar and a nerdy girl (and is far from the only female scholar of the middle ages).  You can still see the impact the church had on women's lives, in the content of their writing, and in it's survival in the historic record, though.

All these, against a single lowborn and illiterate Joan of Arc, in cultures with far more and far more direct prohibitions on girls being aggressive and having a say in military matters and matters 'of the world', far greater enforcement of overt beliefs in female passivity, that went beyond education.The size and strength of Brienne of Tarth, the flawless ninja skills of Arya, are no threat to our willing suspension of disbelief, but female candlewaster is?

Actually, Missandei does spend at least one whole night reading scrolls, but again, if an eleven-year-old with more lore in more languages than even Maester Aemon has managed to acquire doesn't threaten our willing suspension of disbelief, I don't think GRRM would be worried if a point of view happened on a grown woman who happened to read history, just when a point needed to be explained. I guess with Missandei, someone has to tell Dany, now that she has exiled Jorah, but it looks like Missandei's most ingenious advice will go to Barristan anyway, and might well be the death of him.

The far more gendered education, and greater separation and stratification of the sexes, in some ways encouraged female scholarship.  The celibate life, in an active or contemplative order, or not absolutely in an order as such, gave them an out, if they didn't want or couldn't have a life of children-bearing (or were widowed, or were abandoned by the men they were secretly wed to, or a variety of other circumstances.) The very scholarly, poetry-writing virgin queen Elizabeth was not medieval, but she was not the first or only woman of her kind. 

Better they retire to books than meddle in the world of men, in the opinion of the church. If they got too keen on the books, they could always be tried for heresy (in some cases, the only trace of female authorship is the record of the inquisition that lead to her burning). We know the faiths of Westeros are not as all-consuming, nor as all-confining, as the real medieval church, and yet we don't even see women writing to women, as literate women did in the medieval. We also don't see mothers teaching children their ABC's, as women did in the medieval. Children have tertiary-educated male teachers from an early age, or none, it would seem.

It is not so with all aspects of culture. While there is a dearth of trobaritz there are also no troubadour, and GRRM felt able to introduce a representative female minstrel without completely ruining his plots or destroying our ability to suspend disbelief. Tyrion dismisses Bethany Fairfingers as 'Bessa the Barmaid' when he hears her perform, but that is on him, perfectly consistent with his characteristic misogyny and serves to demonstrate how drunk he is, and how more than usually unreliable a narrator. We see evidence of art everywhere, but the only painter we encounter is the  Duskendale captain's sister who paints Brienne's shield.

The gendered acquisition of historical knowledge goes beyond literacy. Whenever GRRM needs to background his readers on cultural aspects, a Ser Bartimus will step up to mention it, a Sallador Saan will dribble it out with grape seeds, an Ulmer of the Kingswood will add it to the store of a point of view's knowledge, a Jorah Mormont will explain it so that the reader doesn't have to be surprised by the depth of knowledge of such a young point of view.

Women do get to tell stories, although not as many as men. However, not unimportant. The main female source of lore is Old Nan. Her stories are vetted and clarified by Maester Luwin (who seems to be at least as interested in magic and mystisim, and only gives lip service to rational thought). Jon learns from his personal experience that wildlings and giants are nothing like what Nan says. Ned, who defies omens and superstition, is openly contemptuous of her tales. Outside of Old Nan, women do drop odd, scattered bits of cultural knowledge and history - Gilly sings a nonsense song that other women taught her, that delights Maester Aemon. Ygritte starts the wildlings singing the Last of the Giants , tells of Brandon the Daughterless and Grendel's children.

But it is men who provide the narrative history. There is this 'never believe anything you hear at a woman's tit' attitude that goes across all points of view, all through the story. Melisandre is the character that quotes extensively from the Jade Compendium, but we only know she is doing that when Sam and Maester Aemon expose her Lightbringer (to the reader) as a fraud.

TL:DR The female lack of interest in history and scholarship is beyond medieval.   

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23 minutes ago, Walda said:

Well yes, but in real medieval culture the church controlled literacy to a great extent, and had a very strong belief in the inferiority of women, so, for example, at the wedding of Lionel of Antwerp (that the purple wedding seems to be loosely based on) the tables full of wedding guests were divided by gender, men on one side, women on the other. Girls, if they were educated at all, were typically given girl's education, and it was not extraordinary for even noblewomen to be illiterate while their brothers were scholars.

<snip

TL:DR The female lack of interest in history and scholarship is beyond medieval.   

In real life yes. But in ASOIAF GRRM has created the maesters who siphon off some of the power of the Faith when it comes to records and education.

The TL:DR baffles me. Not questioning the accuracy of the statement but I've always loved history and learning. 

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