What was King Torrhen doing in the Riverlands at the time of the Conquest?

[TMIFairy]

I keep on wondering - what was Torrhen Stark and the army of the North doing in the Riverlands? Why wasn't he in the North minding his own business? Without being "held hostage to dragonfire" - with 30K other Northmen - he would not need to kneel.

I have a theory that had Torrhen stayed in the North, then a Targ attempt at conquest would had been as successful as that of Dorne. The Neck blocks the land invasion route, leaving only amphibious landings. And the three dragons cannot be everywhere ... Not to mention "shoot enough crossbow bolts at a dragon and one finally will catch it in the eye. Or hit the rider ..."

So, either the North stays independent or gets even better terms.

If topic already covered - please give me kick in the direction of the pertinent thread.

 

[Lion of the West]

To start with I would think that Torrhen wanted to fight the Targaryens outside his own territory as war is destructive and I think that he may have angled for maybe get a piece of the Riverlands if he was victorious. After all when he marched south the Riverlands would have already declared for Aegon and it wasn't out of the question that the Lannisters and Gardeners would send the Targaryens running back to Dragonstone, thus Torrhen would be in a position to take a piece of Aegon's domain for his own if the Targaryens were defeated.

As for holding out against dragons, I'd say no. The Dornish could apparently survive the first Targaryen invasion because of their guerilla tactics but I've seen nothing to hint that the Northmen have any special skill in such assymetric warfare. And also note that holding Moat Cailin would do nothing more than present the dragons with a stationary target to destroy. And while its true that dragons can't be everywhere, they can keep up with the main army to burst through the Neck and then capture White Harbor to give the Targaryens a major port to bring in supplies, reinforcements and operate from to harry both the eastern coast of the North as well as use the White Knife for increased mobility when they strike against Winterfell. Not to mention that the new Lord Paramount of the Iron Island might well take what ships he can to harry the western coast of the North with royal permission. In short, the North can't hold out against a (nearly) united South with dragon support.

[Robb Snow]

Just checked the story in the world-book, but it's not really explained. But remember that additional to accounts of the field of fire, King Torrhen came along the ruins of Harrenhal. So maybe he thought that hiding (in castles) would not work.

But why he came down to the Trident rather than waiting for Aegon I to come north to the neck? No idea. Plot maybe

[TMIFairy]

It is not Moat Cailin itself which is the "plug" on invasions from the south. It is the 350 miles of swamp you have to cross to get to it ...

The dragons are useless there. The Crannogmen and other Northmen would be under the cover of trees.

As to assymetric/guerilla warfare - the North is some 4 or 5 times larger than Dorne. And forested. Good luck in chasing down the locals.

Just making some arguments ...

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

I keep on wondering - what was Torrhen Stark and the army of the North doing in the Riverlands? Why wasn't he in the North minding his own business? Without being "held hostage to dragonfire" - with 30K other Northmen - he would not need to kneel.

I have a theory that had Torrhen stayed in the North, then a Targ attempt at conquest would had been as successful as that of Dorne. The Neck blocks the land invasion route, leaving only amphibious landings. And the three dragons cannot be everywhere ... Not to mention "shoot enough crossbow bolts at a dragon and one finally will catch it in the eye. Or hit the rider ..."

So, either the North stays independent or gets even better terms.

If topic already covered - please give me kick in the direction of the pertinent thread.

 

The plan was to assassinate the Dragons with weirwood arrows, and then to smash Aegon's dragonless army in the aftermath. Torhenn faced a number of strategic challenges.

Amassing a 30k army in the North is a temporary affair, with a very short window of opportunity to use it. Feeding 30k men in one place means carting in supplies over vast distances, at tremendous cost. People often go on about how Torhenn had plenty of time to prepare for Aegon's invasion, and hence was able to gather the entire North's strength. But gathering the entire North's strength in one place is probably impossible, no matter how much time you have, and once gathered, you have very little time before they have to either march immediately or else disperse back to their home keeps.

Robb couldn't feed 12k men at Winterfell for more than a few weeks. How could Torhenn feed 30k men at Moat Cailin for any extended period of time? He had to march.

So the plan was to assassinate the dragons and then use his large army to break Aegon's strength for good. But something made him change his mind at the last minute. It wasn't the dragons. There was a plan to deal with them. The World Book says it was the sight of Aegon's 45k strong army. This does not really make sense, as once the dragons were gone, he could simply retreat to Moat Cailin and deal with any sized army imaginable.

Personally, I have always believed he received a prophecy indicating that the fate of the world depended on him kneeling to Aegon. Because that would ultimately lead to Jon being born from Torhenn and Aegon's bloodlines. We know so little of the full story, a revelation from Bran at some point in future indicating something along these lines, that Torhenn accepted being forever known as the King Who Knelt, in exchange for saving the world, would make him a much more noble figure than his apparent loss of heart at the last minute would suggest at face value.

[TMIFairy]

I still don't understand what those 30K northmen were doing at the Crossroads in the first place.

After mobilization you either trek across the Neck, which takes several weeks (remember, no Kingsroad), or you go by ship. By two hundred ships or so.

Are you suggesting that Torrhen taking the army South was carrying out a preemptive strike?

 

[Stormking902]

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The plan was to assassinate the Dragons with weirwood arrows, and then to smash Aegon's dragonless army in the aftermath. Torhenn faced a number of strategic challenges.

Amassing a 30k army in the North is a temporary affair, with a very short window of opportunity to use it. Feeding 30k men in one place means carting in supplies over vast distances, at tremendous cost. People often go on about how Torhenn had plenty of time to prepare for Aegon's invasion, and hence was able to gather the entire North's strength. But gathering the entire North's strength in one place is probably impossible, no matter how much time you have, and once gathered, you have very little time before they have to either march immediately or else disperse back to their home keeps.

Robb couldn't feed 12k men at Winterfell for more than a few weeks. How could Torhenn feed 30k men at Moat Cailin for any extended period of time? He had to march.

So the plan was to assassinate the dragons and then use his large army to break Aegon's strength for good. But something made him change his mind at the last minute. It wasn't the dragons. There was a plan to deal with them. The World Book says it was the sight of Aegon's 45k strong army. This does not really make sense, as once the dragons were gone, he could simply retreat to Moat Cailin and deal with any sized army imaginable.

Personally, I have always believed he received a prophecy indicating that the fate of the world depended on him kneeling to Aegon. Because that would ultimately lead to Jon being born from Torhenn and Aegon's bloodlines. We know so little of the full story, a revelation from Bran at some point in future indicating something along these lines, that Torhenn accepted being forever known as the King Who Knelt, in exchange for saving the world, made him a much more noble figure than his apparent loss of heart at the last minute would suggest at face value.

 A plausable explanation is that though Torhen heard storys of the dragons strength and SIZE he didint quite believe that the storys he heard were 100% true and that perhaps the dragons were big but not Balarion the black dread BIG. 

Another factor is that Torhen expected Aegon to have a smaller army then himself and didnt realise how many lords flocked to his banner after the field of fire and Harrenhal, so when he arrived Torhen seen Aegons 45k army and Balarion and Torhen made a wise decison which saved his people a very painful death. 

[Johnimus]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The plan was to assassinate the Dragons with weirwood arrows, and then to smash Aegon's dragonless army in the aftermath. Torhenn faced a number of strategic challenges.

Amassing a 30k army in the North is a temporary affair, with a very short window of opportunity to use it. Feeding 30k men in one place means carting in supplies over vast distances, at tremendous cost. People often go on about how Torhenn had plenty of time to prepare for Aegon's invasion, and hence was able to gather the entire North's strength. But gathering the entire North's strength in one place is probably impossible, no matter how much time you have, and once gathered, you have very little time before they have to either march immediately or else disperse back to their home keeps.

Robb couldn't feed 12k men at Winterfell for more than a few weeks. How could Torhenn feed 30k men at Moat Cailin for any extended period of time? He had to march.

So the plan was to assassinate the dragons and then use his large army to break Aegon's strength for good. But something made him change his mind at the last minute. It wasn't the dragons. There was a plan to deal with them. The World Book says it was the sight of Aegon's 45k strong army. This does not really make sense, as once the dragons were gone, he could simply retreat to Moat Cailin and deal with any sized army imaginable.

Personally, I have always believed he received a prophecy indicating that the fate of the world depended on him kneeling to Aegon. Because that would ultimately lead to Jon being born from Torhenn and Aegon's bloodlines. We know so little of the full story, a revelation from Bran at some point in future indicating something along these lines, that Torhenn accepted being forever known as the King Who Knelt, in exchange for saving the world, would make him a much more noble figure than his apparent loss of heart at the last minute would suggest at face value.

First, that was a really stupid plan. From what we know of the Conquest, the Dragons were rarely, FOF aside, in the one place. Second, this would be a good place to post that Sean Bean LOTR meme with the caption "one does not simply march into the Riverlands and kill 3 dragons". The plan to deal with the Dragons was..... what? Kill them with weirwood bows? C'mon man.

Second, you seem to assume that "The King who Knelt" is a pejorative, a bad thing. How many Northmen died in the Conquest? Why do you assume Torrhen came out worse than Mern Gardener?

The Starks live today. Where is House Gardener? Torrhen Stark was the smartest dude around at the time.

As to why he marched south of the Neck, I assume it was because the Targaryens were in Oldtown. If he had meant to fight, he could have brought steel and fury to those River Lords, or Lords of the modern Crownlands, who were allied with Aegon. Captured hostages, that sort of thing. Fed his army off the enemy's supplies, and forced Aegon to march to meet him.

Of course, he saw the Dragons, and did the smart thing. He was a good guy, was Torrhen.

[Free Northman Reborn]

18 minutes ago, Johnimus said:

First, that was a really stupid plan. From what we know of the Conquest, the Dragons were rarely, FOF aside, in the one place. Second, this would be a good place to post that Sean Bean LOTR meme with the caption "one does not simply march into the Riverlands and kill 3 dragons". The plan to deal with the Dragons was..... what? Kill them with weirwood bows? C'mon man.

Second, you seem to assume that "The King who Knelt" is a pejorative, a bad thing. How many Northmen died in the Conquest? Why do you assume Torrhen came out worse than Mern Gardener?

The Starks live today. Where is House Gardener? Torrhen Stark was the smartest dude around at the time.

As to why he marched south of the Neck, I assume it was because the Targaryens were in Oldtown. If he had meant to fight, he could have brought steel and fury to those River Lords, or Lords of the modern Crownlands, who were allied with Aegon. Captured hostages, that sort of thing. Fed his army off the enemy's supplies, and forced Aegon to march to meet him.

Of course, he saw the Dragons, and did the smart thing. He was a good guy, was Torrhen.

The Arryns fought. The Martells fought. The Lannisters fought. They all still exist today, with just as much status as the Starks.

And being known as the King who Knelt is a unique label around Torhenn's neck in all of the 8000 years of Stark Kings.

As for the weirwood arrow plot. It clearly was based on more than just wishful thinking. Most probably on lore handed down from the Dawn Age, when wild dragons still existed in Westeros.

[Lion of the West]

3 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

I still don't understand what those 30K northmen were doing at the Crossroads in the first place.

After mobilization you either trek across the Neck, which takes several weeks (remember, no Kingsroad), or you go by ship. By two hundred ships or so.

Are you suggesting that Torrhen taking the army South was carrying out a preemptive strike?

 

I'd say that it was preempitve, yes.

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The plan was to assassinate the Dragons with weirwood arrows, and then to smash Aegon's dragonless army in the aftermath. Torhenn faced a number of strategic challenges.

Amassing a 30k army in the North is a temporary affair, with a very short window of opportunity to use it. Feeding 30k men in one place means carting in supplies over vast distances, at tremendous cost. People often go on about how Torhenn had plenty of time to prepare for Aegon's invasion, and hence was able to gather the entire North's strength. But gathering the entire North's strength in one place is probably impossible, no matter how much time you have, and once gathered, you have very little time before they have to either march immediately or else disperse back to their home keeps.

Robb couldn't feed 12k men at Winterfell for more than a few weeks. How could Torhenn feed 30k men at Moat Cailin for any extended period of time? He had to march.

So the plan was to assassinate the dragons and then use his large army to break Aegon's strength for good. But something made him change his mind at the last minute. It wasn't the dragons. There was a plan to deal with them. The World Book says it was the sight of Aegon's 45k strong army. This does not really make sense, as once the dragons were gone, he could simply retreat to Moat Cailin and deal with any sized army imaginable.

Personally, I have always believed he received a prophecy indicating that the fate of the world depended on him kneeling to Aegon. Because that would ultimately lead to Jon being born from Torhenn and Aegon's bloodlines. We know so little of the full story, a revelation from Bran at some point in future indicating something along these lines, that Torhenn accepted being forever known as the King Who Knelt, in exchange for saving the world, would make him a much more noble figure than his apparent loss of heart at the last minute would suggest at face value.

Well no. He couldn't retreat to MC with that big of an army. Not only does Robb bitch about feeding 12K at WF, he bitches even more about feeding the 18K + manderlys at MC. I'm still at a loss to explain the IB occupation of MC with the iron fleet, but glossing over that you can't garrison MC with more than a few thousand men without a dedicated, large supply line from WH and Barrowton

[Lion of the West]

3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Well no. He couldn't retreat to MC with that big of an army. Not only does Robb bitch about feeding 12K at WF, he bitches even more about feeding the 18K + manderlys at MC. I'm still at a loss to explain the IB occupation of MC with the iron fleet, but glossing over that you can't garrison MC with more than a few thousand men without a dedicated, large supply line from WH and Barrowton

i believe the expination given in the books is that the Ironborn used the Salt Spear to bring in supplies by sea, which I would presume either came from the Islands or raided from western coast of the North close to the Salt Spear.

[TMIFairy]

22 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 I'm still at a loss to explain the IB occupation of MC with the iron fleet

The Iron Fleet left when they ate all the food they had on the ships, leaving only a 200 (?) men garrison. A much more manageable and plausible number.

So, back to Torrhem and the inexplcable (?) presence of the North's army in the Lower Six while the dragons were on a rampage.

Mind you, the North did not intervene a hundred years previously when the Iron Born were kicking out the Stromlanders from trans-Blackwater Rush and subduing the Riverlands.

So, pre-emptive strike as LoftW suggests, or simply "plot"?

[Free Northman Reborn]

12 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Well no. He couldn't retreat to MC with that big of an army. Not only does Robb bitch about feeding 12K at WF, he bitches even more about feeding the 18K + manderlys at MC. I'm still at a loss to explain the IB occupation of MC with the iron fleet, but glossing over that you can't garrison MC with more than a few thousand men without a dedicated, large supply line from WH and Barrowton

That's not what I meant. Of course he would not garrison Moat Cailin with 30k men. He would not have to. He would garrison it with a much smaller force, and let the rest go home. Moat Cailin is unassailable without dragons. So once the dragons were dead, he could hold it with a fraction of his full strength.

[Universal Sword Donor]

15 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

i believe the expination given in the books is that the Ironborn used the Salt Spear to bring in supplies by sea, which I would presume either came from the Islands or raided from western coast of the North close to the Salt Spear.

You're presume but the IB did not have the cavalry needed to protect or raid. We know this because they suck at riding, hate it, and there is no mention of horses at any point with the iron fleet.

8 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

The Iron Fleet left when they ate all the food they had on the ships, leaving only a 200 (?) men garrison. A much more manageable and plausible number.

So, back to Torrhem and the inexplcable (?) presence of the North's army in the Lower Six while the dragons were on a rampage.

Mind you, the North did not intervene a hundred years previously when the Iron Born were kicking out the Stromlanders from cis-Backwater Rush and subduing the Riverlands.

So, pre-emptive strike as LoftW suggests, or simply "plot"?

That is complete supposition. They left when Vic wanted to be king and they followed him to a man. The garrison mentions all the death they encountered and its clear that the "bog devils" were going to destroy them root and stem before long. And yes the world book literally says the march was pre-emptive, so sure?

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

That's not what I meant. Of course he would not garrison Moat Cailin with 30k men. He would not have to. He would garrison it with a much smaller force, and let the rest go home. Moat Cailin is unassailable without dragons. So once the dragons were dead, he could hold it with a fraction of his full strength.

Agree on the MC garrison. Disagree on the rest going home. Torrhen might have been stupid or brilliant, but surely someone would have said "what if the dagrons burn moat cailin like HH"

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You're presume but the IB did not have the cavalry needed to protect or raid. We know this because they suck at riding, hate it, and there is no mention of horses at any point with the iron fleet.

That is complete supposition. They left when Vic wanted to be king and they followed him to a man. The garrison mentions all the death they encountered and its clear that the "bog devils" were going to destroy them root and stem before long. And yes the world book literally says the march was pre-emptive, so sure?

Agree on the MC garrison. Disagree on the rest going home. Torrhen might have been stupid or brilliant, but surely someone would have said "what if the dagrons burn moat cailin like HH"

I said he would do this AFTER the dragons were dead (i.e. assassinated). Failing that, holding Moat Cailin would not be an option as it could just be napalmed from the air.

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I said he would do this AFTER the dragons were dead (i.e. assassinated). Failing that, holding Moat Cailin would not be an option as it could just be napalmed from the air.

Misread. My apologies

[TMIFairy]

15 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

And yes the world book literally says the march was pre-emptive, so sure?

This answers my original question, thank you.

[Lion of the West]

15 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You're presume but the IB did not have the cavalry needed to protect or raid. We know this because they suck at riding, hate it, and there is no mention of horses at any point with the iron fleet.

If you've got fast ships you can raid coastal communities without the use of horses. Even if he horses makes you more effective at it.

[PrettyPig]

5 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

 

Are you suggesting that Torrhen taking the army South was carrying out a preemptive strike?

 

Perhaps more like a preemptive defense.   IMO we should look at the possibility that Torrhen needed to keep the Targaryens and their dragons out of the North for very specific reasons. He may have known what later kneelers have forgotten.     

His bringing troops south may have been a matter of necessity rather than battle strategy.