Hangover of the Morning Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 How does a second son from a relatively minor, albeit famous, far-away house become best friend with the crown prince? We can only speculate as there's very little to go on in the canon. We only know that Arthur was Rhaegar dearest as well as oldest friend. To me that implies that they have known each other from childhood or early teens. My guess is that the boys have squired together for the same lord (Jaime and Merrett Frey or Tywin/Aerys/Steffon scenario). Alternatively, Arhtur could have been "fostered" in King's Landing for a period of time. Rhaegar grew up as an only child (Viserys was born when he was 16) and it's not unusual to bring other noble children to the court to keep the prince company. How do you think that those two met? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romaine3 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Interesting question. From what I could find, they are almost exactly the same age. So it could be possible that when Rhaegar decided to ease up on the books and begin his weapons training, someone may have thought that it would be beneficial to find him a training partner that was his age. My guess is that Ser Barristan Selmy (who was in many ways a father figure to Rhaegar) identified Arthur and brought him to King's Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manderly's Rat Cook Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 5 minutes ago, Romaine3 said: Interesting question. From what I could find, they are almost exactly the same age. So it could be possible that when Rhaegar decided to ease up on the books and begin his weapons training, someone may have thought that it would be beneficial to find him a training partner that was his age. My guess is that Ser Barristan Selmy (who was in many ways a father figure to Rhaegar) identified Arthur and brought him to King's Landing. You mean Gerold Hightower I suppose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romaine3 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Nah, Selmy and The White Bull may have talked it over, but I think that at that point in time, Selmy was probably known as the best. Plus, Selmy came of age with Aerys, Tywin, & Steffon. So Selmy, being the junior member of the KG was probably sent off with the task to find young Rhaegar a suitable training partner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 There's literally no indication of his age or his second born status. I'm gonna go ahead with the quite obvious explanation of Rhaegar meeting him as crown prince and becoming fast friends with him, either because he was the sword shield or because he trained Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romaine3 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 On Dayne's wiki page, his birth say 260 or before. Rhaegar is listed as 259. I reason Ser Barristan as choosing Arthur, because they have a similar background. While the Dayne's and the Selmy's come from noble houses, neither house is a heavy hitter politically. If it didn't work out like that, then it's because they both excelled at a young age & were always facing off against one another at tournaments or something along those lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 7 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said: or his second born status. Edric Dayne mentions that his father was Arhtur's older brother. No mention of any other male-Dayne in that generation.Therefore, Arhtur was in all likelihood the second son. I'd wager he was also second born out of the four children (since Ashara is described as quite young at Harrenhal) but we don't know that for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romaine3 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 The only other obvious playmate for Rhaegar would have been Robert Baratheon. He was a few years younger than Rhaegar, but the way people talk about "Prime Bob" on this forum, at age 12, he was probably 6'4 with a full beard. He and Ned were wards for Jon Arryn though, so someone more compatible with Rhaegar had to be chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 17 minutes ago, Romaine3 said: On Dayne's wiki page, his birth say 260 or before. Arthur's age (or looks for that matter) are never describe in the books so it must be just a fan's guess. However, I too think that he was probably more or less the same age as Rhaegar. I've written my reasoning before so just copy-pasting: It's unlikely to befriend someone more than a couple years older or younger when you are a child or a teen and since Arthur was not only Rhaegar's dearest but also oldest friend, it's safe to assume that their friendship goes way back The age of Arthur's siblings: the older brother had his first child two years after Arthur's and Ashara's deaths, while at the same time the youngest Dayne is but a wee kid when they died. Unless they had different mothers, it's unlikely that there was more than a 25 year gap between Edric's dad and Allyria. Arthur has to fall somewhere in between. Ashara and Arthur were very close by all accounts and if there was a significant age gap between them, they'd barely known each other. Ashara couldn't have been much older than Ned and Robert as she's repeatedly described as a "young maid" and "new to court" around the time of Harrenhal Tourney. Edric left Starfall to become page and later squire at the age of 8. Jaime left home when he was 11. Arthur would presumably not be an exception in this case and would have left home around that age as well. He and his sister could have bonded during their time at court but we don't know if they were even in the same place. Ashara, as one of Elia's ladies in waiting was probably on Dragonstone rather than King's Landing but we don't know about Arthur's whereabouts. I always took for granted that Arthur joined KG at a young age (around the time he turned adulthood: 17-20) but not absurdly young like Jaime (otherwise it'd be noted). Similarly, I got the impression that Prince Lewyn joined later in his life (e.g in his forties). No textual evidence, just feels right regarding what we know about their personalities. Arthur probably joined after Duskendale (277 A.D.), otherwise he'd be mentioned doing "something" at that time. So if Arthur replaced Gwayne Gaunt (who died at Duskendale) and was 20 at that time, he'd be two years older than Rhaegar. He could have also been younger and/or joined a year or two later. Either way, he'd have 5-6 in the KG plus few years as a Sword of the Morning and a celebrated tourney knight prior to that, which should be plenty of time in GRRM-verse to achieve eternal fame. Of all the celebrated knights in Aerys' Kingsguard, teenage Jaime identifies the most with Arthur. Could be because Arthur knighted him or because he was the best swordsman or because Jaime liked his personality (or looks) but could also be because he could related to him the most due to their closeness in age. The White Bull and Barry the Bold were famous throughout the realm and had much more victories under their belts compare to Dayne but no sane teenager wants to emulate someone 3-4 times their age. A guy who is already famous but only few years older than Jaime sounds like a much more reasonable role model. We don't know the age of Whent, Martell or Darry but they all had siblings in their forties so would likely be in early thirties at least. GRRM likes his heroes absurdly young when they achieve their fame (Daeron I, Jon, Robb, Jaime, Ned and Robert during RR) so why should a prodigy like Arthur be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romaine3 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 All very valid reasons. I can just imagine that someone thought Young Prince Rhaegar would need a companion his own age around Kings Landing. Arthur was identified. Someone like Ser Barristan made the long trip south to Starfall and brought him back to KL. Both men become reknowned young knights because they get trained everyday by legends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 29 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said: Edric Dayne mentions that his father was Arhtur's older brother. No mention of any other male-Dayne in that generation.Therefore, Arhtur was in all likelihood the second son. I'd wager he was also second born out of the four children (since Ashara is described as quite young at Harrenhal) but we don't know that for sure. Yes elder brother. Nothing about second son. You can wager but it would be a piss poor bet, much like his age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 7 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Yes elder brother. Nothing about second son. You can wager but it would be a piss poor bet, much like his age What makes you think that there was another son/s in between Edric's father and Arthur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said: What makes you think that there was another son/s in between Edric's father and Arthur? There is literally nothing else said about his age or other brothers. Why on god's green earth would I assume he was the 2nd son? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romaine3 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Selmy was heir to Harvest Hall. They had a bride lined up for him and everything. When offered the spot on the KG, he accepted anyway, and everything that was to be his was passed to his younger brother. You don't think Arthur Dayne would follow Selmy's example in a similar fashion? Add to that the cool title and legendary sword Dawn. It makes sense that Dayne would rather be a famous knight of the Kingsguard than a could have been stuck at Starfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said: There is literally nothing else said about his age or other brothers. Why on god's green earth would I assume he was the 2nd son? Fair enough. Edric Dayne seems to be insinuating that he has all the info about Ashara from his aunt Allyria, who was only a baby at that time. Think that if there was another adult in his father's generation, he'd be likely a more reliable source of information, and thus mentioned. But yeah, the possibility that there were more Dayne siblings can't be excluded, even if I find it somewhat unlikely. Either way, they are irrelevant to the plot. It really doesn't matter, whether Arthur was 2nd or 10th born as he certainly wasn't' the heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said: Fair enough. Edric Dayne seems to be insinuating that he has all the info about Ashara from his aunt Allyria, who was only a baby at that time. Think that if there was another adult in his father's generation, he'd be likely a more reliable source of information, and thus mentioned. But yeah, the possibility that there were more Dayne siblings can't be excluded, even if I find it somewhat unlikely. Either way, they are irrelevant to the plot. It really doesn't matter, whether Arthur was 2nd or 10th born as he certainly wasn't' the heir. Don't get me wrong. I think the info is passable but not confirmed because of what you mentioned. I just won't take a risk assuming Dayne was 2nd. If I did, he'd assuredly be a Waymar of the family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romaine3 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Is there a description of Arthur Dayne's appearance anywhere in the text? Aerys was said to be a womanizer. Arthur could very well be a well covered up illegitimate offspring of Aerys. There isn't any evidence that Aerys did impregnate Lady Dayne, but who knows! If this were true, it would be the perfect reason to bring a young Arthur to King's Landing and raise him up at court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 11 minutes ago, Romaine3 said: Is there a description of Arthur Dayne's appearance anywhere in the text? Aerys was said to be a womanizer. Arthur could very well be a well covered up illegitimate offspring of Aerys. There isn't any evidence that Aerys did impregnate Lady Dayne, but who knows! If this were true, it would be the perfect reason to bring a young Arthur to King's Landing and raise him up at court. We never got Arthur's description, only that of his relatives (sister, nephew and distant cousin). There's absolutely nothing in the text to support the idea that Aerys banged Lady Dayne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romaine3 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 I know, it's a bit of a reach! The only Lady specifically mentioned was Joanna Lannister. But she was never confirmed outright either. It was known that he did have many affairs with the noble women basically everywhere he went until Duskendale happened. Was Arthur Dayne's mother one of these women? Maybe. Probably not, but there is still a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Nothing in text yet to support this notion, but it certainly seems that many friendships/alliances were forged during the War of the Ninepenny Kings: Aerys/Tywin, Hoster Tully/Littlefinger's father, etc., so I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Aerys and Lord Elder Dayne (Arthur's father) were also thrown together at this time. I mean, the Stepstones are right there in Dorne's backyard; it seems reasonable that the Daynes would have a dog in that fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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