Hajk1984

"He has to know, we have to tell him..." WHY?

229 posts in this topic

So Bran keeps quiet about Jon's parentage all season and never tells his sisters. But somehow, now, in the middle of the greatest existential threat the North has ever faced, he "has to " reveal a secret that can cause heavy tension at the very top of the coalition that Jon has built to oppose it. Dropping this secret at this time immediately opens up the following problems:

1. Jon's dedication and loyalty to the North, in fact his whole self-image is based on being Ned Stark's bastard. Putting a leader of the war in a severe identity crisis during a war seems unwise.

2. The incest thing may potentially cause severe heartache for both Jon and Dany, who are both pivotal at this stage.

3. Jon's rival claim to the Iron Throne can cause severe mistrust with Dany (as opposed to the deep trust he seems to have now) and that cannot make sense at the highest levels of your command structure.

So why does Bran "have to" drop this truth at this point? Why not maintain silence until the threat is dealt with? Whatever Jon's concerns about his mother's identity may be, for now he is in a stable state of mind and focused on the issue at hand. Which is what is needed. 

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Short answer is because the plot demands it. But you're right, there really is no real reason for Branbot to say anything. Or even take interest in this. As he says, he is no longer a Stark and apparently devoid of emotion, so this news should mean nothing to him. I get it if Sam wants to, but for Bran it doesn't make sense.

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He just found out that Jon was legitimate. Jon's parentage wasn't legally significant if he was a bastard. It's brand new info to Bran that Jon is the rightful King. It's not for Bran to weigh this, that and the other reason for why it may or may not be beneficial for Jon to know.* Jon's birthright is Jon's business, and he deserves to know about it.

There may be a legit question as to why he hasn't told him what he knows previously, but that's probably just because it wasn't that important and Bran is pre-occupied. But there really isn't any question as to whether he should tell Jon now. Of course he should.

*Plus there are plenty of reasons to weigh on the other side, starting with the fact that folks are about to go to war to fight for their future, and should know what it is they are fighting for. 

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Not sure if this was in the show, but Aemon (and Rhaegar) believed that The Prince That Was Promised was a Targaryan from Aerys and Rhaella line. So this could be important in the fight against the WW.

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6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Not sure if this was in the show, but Aemon (and Rhaegar) believed that The Prince That Was Promised was a Targaryan from Aerys and Rhaella line. So this could be important in the fight against the WW.

You bring up a good point because Sam before Bran tells him says "I believe Jon is the one who is meant to lead us in the war against the NK and army of the dead" not an exact quote but, maybe Bran also believes this.  

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Yeah, I don't get why he told Sam but not his own sisters?

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9 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Yeah, I don't get why he told Sam but not his own sisters?

His sisters never asked for any secrets about Jon. Sam was like hey man lets talk about Jon. 

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31 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

He just found out that Jon was legitimate. Jon's parentage wasn't legally significant if he was a bastard. It's brand new info to Bran that Jon is the rightful King. It's not for Bran to weigh this, that and the other reason for why it may or may not be beneficial for Jon to know.* Jon's birthright is Jon's business, and he deserves to know about it.

There may be a legit question as to why he hasn't told him what he knows previously, but that's probably just because it wasn't that important and Bran is pre-occupied. But there really isn't any question as to whether he should tell Jon now. Of course he should.

*Plus there are plenty of reasons to weigh on the other side, starting with the fact that folks are about to go to war to fight for their future, and should know what it is they are fighting for. 

But the point is that revealing this information at this stage can cause problems at a high level. At this juncture things are not only about Jon Snow. Jon has built a coalition with Daenerys all season. Daenerys is bring all her forces up to the North to help. Bran is planning on revealing a secret that has the potential to fracture this coalition as well as undermine the focus of its leadership. One doesn't just reveal things in such cases. Ned knew who Jon was all along and didn't reveal it to keep him safe. The stakes are far greater now.

 

36 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Short answer is because the plot demands it. But you're right, there really is no real reason for Branbot to say anything. Or even take interest in this. As he says, he is no longer a Stark and apparently devoid of emotion, so this news should mean nothing to him. I get it if Sam wants to, but for Bran it doesn't make sense.

Yeah that is what doesn't make sense to me. Why must he tell Jon? He's been perfectly happy not telling anyone. I expect GRRM will have a better explanation of why Bran feels this must be done.

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21 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Not sure if this was in the show, but Aemon (and Rhaegar) believed that The Prince That Was Promised was a Targaryan from Aerys and Rhaella line. So this could be important in the fight against the WW.

Yes.

But also:

On the one hand, Bran's confusion seems to be making him pretty deficient in empathy right now. He might not be considering the effects on Jon and Dany as people in the first place. He has to tell Jon because it's the right thing to do. A normal person might balance that against the fact that Jon's got bigger things on his mind and the distraction could seriously get in the way, but Bran might not consider that.

On the other hand, if Bran does understand human nature, he might be worried that, as with most unpleasant secrets, the longer you wait to tell someone, the worse it gets. Imagine the strain on Jon's and Dany's relationship if they find out on the night before their wedding, vs. when they just started hooking up. Imagine what would happen if Dany has called a Great Council to get all the lords of the realm to swear to hear and the morning before they all arrive she learns Jon actually has a better claim. Or imagine the strain if they find out in the middle of the desperate defence of Winterfell instead of a couple weeks earlier when they're preparing for it. This may not be a good time for Jon to find out, but there are far worse times in the near future.

Still, I think you're right that the biggest issue is that knowing could somehow help Jon in the preparation for the fight against the dead. Maybe something as simple as "Hey, this means Jon can ride Rhaegal, so now we have two dragonriders in the battle instead of one", maybe some deep prophecy thing, who knows?

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3 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Yeah that is what doesn't make sense to me. Why must he tell Jon? He's been perfectly happy not telling anyone. I expect GRRM will have a better explanation of why Bran feels this must be done.

I assume he will. Or just change how Bran acts. Or even something as simple as having Sam say it. Who knows, guess we will see!

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26 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Not sure if this was in the show, but Aemon (and Rhaegar) believed that The Prince That Was Promised was a Targaryan from Aerys and Rhaella line. So this could be important in the fight against the WW.

Danaerys is ALSO of Aerys and Rhaella's line she is their direct descendent as their daughter. Yes, Jon is descended from their line too since he's the son of Rhaegar, who is the son of Aerys and Rhaella. I'm just pointing this out because that can't be the reason why they HAVE to tell Jon. My vote is it's purely for some plot fluffing strife to cause tension. 

IMHO I think it should be most important to Jon as it will help him validate his own identity with himself (e.g. why he was resurrected, why he should have a connection with dragons, why he seems "chosen" to lead this fight). I will be very disappointed if the D&D cheapen this to cause strife because I can't imagine Jon's character not shutting that shit right down and being like, "idfc about the Throne! The only war that matters is the the one against the dead, I already swore fealty to Danaerys, I keep my word I'm not changing taking it back now." Especially considering the epic blab he just did in front of Cersei. No one else *really* needs to know except Dany and Jon.

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31 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Not sure if this was in the show, but Aemon (and Rhaegar) believed that The Prince That Was Promised was a Targaryan from Aerys and Rhaella line. So this could be important in the fight against the WW.

If Jon is The Prince That Was Promised (this prophecy is mentioned in the books as the very reason Aerys and Rhaella were married in the first place, but, to my knowledge, never in the show), then that may make some sort of sense. But I would expect them to mention it in some sense here. So far Melisandre is the only character who has mentioned the PtWP. Jon and Daenerys spent nearly a whole season together and never mentioned the Red Priestess who came to encourage Dany to summon Jon. The PtWP prophecy seems to be mentioned only rarely. Maybe its by design? If Bran had said that he must know as he was the PtWP that would make great sense. Do they still need to retain that for the final season? Because other than this messianic prophecy, Bran's insistence does not seem to make much sense.

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18 minutes ago, silentstark said:

I will be very disappointed if the D&D cheapen this to cause strife because I can't imagine Jon's character not shutting that shit right down and being like, "idfc about the Throne! The only war that matters is the the one against the dead, I already swore fealty to Danaerys, I keep my word I'm not changing taking it back now." Especially considering the epic blab he just did in front of Cersei. No one else *really* needs to know except Dany and Jon.

I don't think Jon's going to care about the throne, but Dany is going to care that someone else has a better claim than hers. Her entire struggle has been about attaining her birthright, and now it turns out it's not her birthright.

Hopefully, the tension is going to be about Jon and maybe Tyrion or Varys helping her come to terms with that—figuring out that she should keep fighting for the throne, not for her birthright, but for the fact that she can help everyone if she wins and she can win it—rather than something more artificial.

The other thing I can see them doing is Jon feeling that he needs to come out and tell everyone that he's Aegon Targaryen but he's officially abdicating, because staying quiet would be dishonorable, and then Cersei using that against Dany. That could be made to work well, but it could also be pretty stupid. My big worry is that I have less faith in D&D's ability to execute that plotline than Dany's internal strife, but I can also imagine it might be the kind of thing they think will work better on TV.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I also think it's to explain the prophecy obsession of Rhaegar.  For all we know, show wise, Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other, Rhaegar annulled his marriage to marry Lyanna....but why? I think Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryen "needs to know" because Bran knows that he is the one that fulfills the prophecy to defeat the WW for good. I just think it's a setup, but what you're pointing is of course great logic lol

Plus, as much as D&D said we want to avoid using flashbacks because it cheapens it, they have and continuously will (how else does Bran the 3 eyed raven "know everything", because we see him downloading or is it uploading?) Maybe we see a flashback of Bran seeing Rhaegar talking to Elia about the dragon needing three heads. Explaining why he's naming all his sons Aegon. And why Drogon didn't just burn him up or eat him there and then...it could explain that away and I foresee Rhaegal bonding with Jon (possibly being the 3rd dragonrider).

Edited by fire&blood
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31 minutes ago, falcotron said:

On the other hand, if Bran does understand human nature, he might be worried that, as with most unpleasant secrets, the longer you wait to tell someone, the worse it gets. Imagine the strain on Jon's and Dany's relationship if they find out on the night before their wedding, vs. when they just started hooking up. Imagine what would happen if Dany has called a Great Council to get all the lords of the realm to swear to hear and the morning before they all arrive she learns Jon actually has a better claim. Or imagine the strain if they find out in the middle of the desperate defence of Winterfell instead of a couple weeks earlier when they're preparing for it. This may not be a good time for Jon to find out, but there are far worse times in the near future.

But it seems to be completely in Bran's (and Sam's) control when this secret comes out. It isn't something out there. Even Sam wouldn't have figured it out without Bran's superpowers. They can suppress it as long as they want. So it coming out at a surprising time is no risk. And whatever the cost to Jon and Dany's personal relationship, the great war has to be a bigger concern.

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35 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I assume he will. Or just change how Bran acts. Or even something as simple as having Sam say it. Who knows, guess we will see!

The thing is, that in the books the Azor Ahai and PtWP prophecy has been quite prominent. If Bran thinks Jon is the PtWP, that could be a good explanation. And season 8 is the time for that prophecy to come to fruition, if there is any truth to it. But Bran does not mention anything of the sort. The way it plays is that Bran just wants to tell him that he isn't a bastard but has a high born (royal) identity. Given the dynamic at play that seems to be an unimportant fact at this juncture.

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45 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

But the point is that revealing this information at this stage can cause problems at a high level. At this juncture things are not only about Jon Snow. Jon has built a coalition with Daenerys all season. Daenerys is bring all her forces up to the North to help. Bran is planning on revealing a secret that has the potential to fracture this coalition as well as undermine the focus of its leadership. One doesn't just reveal things in such cases. Ned knew who Jon was all along and didn't reveal it to keep him safe. The stakes are far greater now.

 

Yeah that is what doesn't make sense to me. Why must he tell Jon? He's been perfectly happy not telling anyone. I expect GRRM will have a better explanation of why Bran feels this must be done.

Maybe because he feels that because Ned told Jon the next time he saw him they would talk about his mother.  Bran could be just doing what his father was going to do.  However, I wonder how that conversation would have gone.  Would Ned have told Jon that his parents were in love and his real name is Aegon Targaryean?  

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16 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I don't think Jon's going to care about the throne, but Dany is going to care that someone else has a better claim than hers. Her entire struggle has been about attaining her birthright, and now it turns out it's not her birthright.

Exactly. Jon may not care, but there is no way Dany won't. This can cause tensions between her and Jon in all sorts of ways; which doesn't seem like something one needs at this point.

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Hopefully, the tension is going to be about Jon and maybe Tyrion or Varys helping her come to terms with that—figuring out that she should keep fighting for the throne, not for her birthright, but for the fact that she can help everyone if she wins and she can win it—rather than something more artificial.

I don't see her giving up her struggle for the throne. For her this is too deeply ingrained at this point. Stopping that struggle would be weird, almost like a religious conversion. But it causes issues for her as well. Her entire justification has been that she is legitimate heir. Anyone else is a usurper who only managed to snatch her right away by use of superior force. Right now she has superior force. But if Jon does not choose to renounce it or marry her and share it (which may conceivably have worked as they are in love) then her narrative collapses on itself. By her own narrative she would then be the usurper who is taking it by force and snatching away someone else's right. Throwing her in this quandry also seems pointless at this juncture. Right now they have an easy arrangement worked out. She will help in the war against the WW, after which Jon will help in her struggle for the IT. Why should Bran disturb this at this point?

Quote

The other thing I can see them doing is Jon feeling that he needs to come out and tell everyone that he's Aegon Targaryen but he's officially abdicating, because staying quiet would be dishonorable, and then Cersei using that against Dany. That could be made to work well, but it could also be pretty stupid. My big worry is that I have less faith in D&D's ability to execute that plotline than Dany's internal strife, but I can also imagine it might be the kind of thing they think will work better on TV.

Cersei's main line of attack against Dany is that this is foreign queen with a completely foreign army and WMDs bent upon regime change in Westeros on the basis of claimed good intentions. But she doesn't know anything about this land and does not belong here. Dany doesn't want all of Westeros to turn into a Harpy situation once she takes power. Jon does not have problems in terms of Westerosi legitimacy, for what it is worth.

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7 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Maybe because he feels that because Ned told Jon the next time he saw him they would talk about his mother.  Bran could be just doing what his father was going to do.  However, I wonder how that conversation would have gone.  Would Ned have told Jon that his parents were in love and his real name is Aegon Targaryean?  

Ned thought he was living in a very different world. Would he have done this with an impending White Walker threat and an essential alliance with the Dragon queen?

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2 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

So Bran keeps quiet about Jon's parentage all season and never tells his sisters. But somehow, now, in the middle of the greatest existential threat the North has ever faced, he "has to " reveal a secret that can cause heavy tension at the very top of the coalition that Jon has built to oppose it. Dropping this secret at this time immediately opens up the following problems:

1. Jon's dedication and loyalty to the North, in fact his whole self-image is based on being Ned Stark's bastard. Putting a leader of the war in a severe identity crisis during a war seems unwise.

2. The incest thing may potentially cause severe heartache for both Jon and Dany, who are both pivotal at this stage.

3. Jon's rival claim to the Iron Throne can cause severe mistrust with Dany (as opposed to the deep trust he seems to have now) and that cannot make sense at the highest levels of your command structure.

So why does Bran "have to" drop this truth at this point? Why not maintain silence until the threat is dealt with? Whatever Jon's concerns about his mother's identity may be, for now he is in a stable state of mind and focused on the issue at hand. Which is what is needed. 

Because he's fucking his auntie and Starks don't think that is A-OK.

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