Hajk1984

"He has to know, we have to tell him..." WHY?

229 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I'm just curious since Jon is not Lord of Winterfell or King where his ruling authority come from now. And everything I looked at says Warden is the supreme military authority. Does Jon even have lordship to be lord paramount? 

I thought Sansa was head of House Stark and Jon was operating outside of it because he's still a bastard. Since the kingship/Wardenship is now completely separate from being Lord Stark or Lord of Winterfell I wonder how this all works. 

Sansa and Tyrion would be interesting too. 

those are good questions. the truth is we don't know. 

all we can say definitively is that Jon was King in the North and now is Warden of the North. Sansa is Lady of Winterfell. What that means exactly, how they relate to each other, who technically leads house stark, how the succession works, what would happen to Sansa being Lady of Winterfell if Jon got married to anyone other than Dany, etc..... unclear. 

I also imagine we won't get any answers to this question as Jon does not look like he will be Warden in the North for much longer once someone says the most obvious thing that only Littlefinger managed to say up until now.... why don't you two just get married? 

Edited by jcmontea

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1 hour ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I'm just curious since Jon is not Lord of Winterfell or King where his ruling authority come from now. And everything I looked at says Warden is the supreme military authority. Does Jon even have lordship to be lord paramount? 

I thought Sansa was head of House Stark and Jon was operating outside of it because he's still a bastard. Since the kingship/Wardenship is now completely separate from being Lord Stark or Lord of Winterfell I wonder how this all works. 

Sansa and Tyrion would be interesting too. 

Don't try to bring logic/reason into this. Logic and reason have no place on the show. Nor does internal consistency nor continuity.

If, however, we insist on trying to bring logic/reason into things, and keeping internal consistency and continuity, Warden of the North is a purely military position, and has no relevance to one's titles/lands.

As far as whether or not Jon has a lordship/lands of his own, it's questionable as to the disposition of Winterfell, but as King of the North, he would (presumably) have taken possession of the Dreadfort, and all lands formerly held by the Boltons. Those probably are still technically in Jon's hands, since it's unlikely he gave them to someone in the interim, even after kneeling to Daenerys, whatever happens with/to Winterfell and the lands held directly by the Starks.

 

And, as jcmontea notes, it is likely to be irrelevant and one of the details we never know.

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1 hour ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I'm just curious since Jon is not Lord of Winterfell or King where his ruling authority come from now. And everything I looked at says Warden is the supreme military authority. Does Jon even have lordship to be lord paramount? 

I thought Sansa was head of House Stark and Jon was operating outside of it because he's still a bastard. Since the kingship/Wardenship is now completely separate from being Lord Stark or Lord of Winterfell I wonder how this all works.

I think a warden is supposed to be in charge of the military. In the first book, Robert wanted Jaime to be the warden of the east instead of lysa's son Robert. I guess that would mean Jaime would have control of the armies of the vale. But Robert Arryn was still the lord of the eyrie and lord paramount of the vale when he would come of age.

By that logic, Sansa would be the head of the Stark family and her descendants would inherit winterfell. And I'm guessing she would be lady paramount??

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20 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

Don't try to bring logic/reason into this. Logic and reason have no place on the show. Nor does internal consistency nor continuity.

If, however, we insist on trying to bring logic/reason into things, and keeping internal consistency and continuity, Warden of the North is a purely military position, and has no relevance to one's titles/lands.

As far as whether or not Jon has a lordship/lands of his own, it's questionable as to the disposition of Winterfell, but as King of the North, he would (presumably) have taken possession of the Dreadfort, and all lands formerly held by the Boltons. Those probably are still technically in Jon's hands, since it's unlikely he gave them to someone in the interim, even after kneeling to Daenerys, whatever happens with/to Winterfell and the lands held directly by the Starks.

 

And, as jcmontea notes, it is likely to be irrelevant and one of the details we never know.

Being Lord of Dreadfort would make sense. But Dreadfort would be Sansa's too. She is or was Lady Bolton. They made it a point to talk about the Umbers and Karstarks but didn't deal with Bolton land. It could been a throw away line. "As King, I'm keeping Dreadfort for myself. and will make that my vacation home". You guys are right he is soon to be Prince Consort (:P) and Warden of the North anyway. 

I will stop with the logic now. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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12 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I think a warden is supposed to be in charge of the military. In the first book, Robert wanted Jaime to be the warden of the east instead of lysa's son Robert. I guess that would mean Jaime would have control of the armies of the vale. But Robert Arryn was still the lord of the eyrie and lord paramount of the vale when he would come of age.

By that logic, Sansa would be the head of the Stark family and her descendants would inherit winterfell. And I'm guessing she would be lady paramount??

That puts her in charge of everything not military. But it seems Jon is Lord Paramount and Warden. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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34 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

That puts her in charge of everything not military. But it seems Jon is Lord Paramount and Warden. 

I think its a safe assumption he is Lord Paramount since he was King in the North and the only thing that changed politically is he is now pledged to House Targaryen. So he now has someone over him but his relationships to those below him should be the same.

if there was enough time and dead men weren't knocking on the door the whole can you believe this secret Targaryen pledged our region to house Targaryen situation would be a huge political scandal. 

Edited by jcmontea

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As Queen (assuming she sits the Iron Throne at some point), Dany can attach whatever conditions or prerequisites (or lack thereof) to the title of Warden of the North that she sees fit. If he needs a castle, she can grant him one, the Dreadfort has been mentioned and makes sense. Basically the whole thing is in the hands of the monarch, she can do what she wants.

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3 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

"As King, I'm keeping Dreadfort for myself. and will make that my vacation home"

What a fun vacation home that would be. When you tire of the Weeping Water, a river that features ice fishing even in the summer, come inside, through the door that looks like a sharp-toothed bestial mouth, and relax in the smoke-filled great hall by the dim light of torches held by skeletal human hands. The all-stone furniture is no more uncomfortable than the decor is spooky. While you're there, don't forget to visit the largest torture chamber on the continent, and the room full of thousands of years of flayed human skins.

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I think we are thinking too deep on this warden and king stuff. It's pretty straight forward. Though the show did Jack it up a bit. 

 

+ Stark = King in the north. The only change was that the king swore to another and stopped calling himself king. Bit the name is unimportant. If he was king then the targs would be emperors and nothing would change. 

So all the houses that swore fealty are still under stark control. Not the king. Stark. Military and all. They follow the kings law because their lord told them to do so. 

 

+ But in show that's jacked up. Rather than swear to a stark, they swore to Jon and named him king. That's kinda treason, but Sansa and the gang have no real power to stop it. They swore to a new lord, so in truth the starks Matter little. 

Sansa may still have some authority, but only if Jon allows it. Because all the lords are sworn to him, not her or house stark. 

 

And if they flip on this, their words become trash. And their fealty means nothing. It's a really silly situation. 

One more thing. Warden is just an honorific. Yeah you technically run the military, but they are not yours. Basically, the king is commanding his vassal to do what the warden says. The vassal being sworn to the king does so, but at no point does the warden actually directly control the men unless the vassal says so. 

Edited by MrJay

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6 hours ago, MrJay said:

I think we are thinking too deep on this warden and king stuff. It's pretty straight forward. Though the show did Jack it up a bit. 

 

+ Stark = King in the north. The only change was that the king swore to another and stopped calling himself king. Bit the name is unimportant. If he was king then the targs would be emperors and nothing would change. 

So all the houses that swore fealty are still under stark control. Not the king. Stark. Military and all. They follow the kings law because their lord told them to do so. 

 

+ But in show that's jacked up. Rather than swear to a stark, they swore to Jon and named him king. That's kinda treason, but Sansa and the gang have no real power to stop it. They swore to a new lord, so in truth the starks Matter little. 

Sansa may still have some authority, but only if Jon allows it. Because all the lords are sworn to him, not her or house stark. 

 

And if they flip on this, their words become trash. And their fealty means nothing. It's a really silly situation. 

One more thing. Warden is just an honorific. Yeah you technically run the military, but they are not yours. Basically, the king is commanding his vassal to do what the warden says. The vassal being sworn to the king does so, but at no point does the warden actually directly control the men unless the vassal says so. 

The lords swore to House Stark. Jon is still a member of House Stark. He just doesn't have the last name. "We know no king but the King in the North whose name is Stark. I don't care if he's a bastard. Ned Stark's blood runs through his veins. He's my king from this day until his last day."

He was made king because he is a Stark descendent. The lords still care he's a "Stark". Presumably they won't care he's a legit Targ because Stark blood still run through his veins. The lord effectively made Jon head of House Stark over Sansa. But Jon has kept Sansa as Lady Stark  because "I'm not a Stark". 

Plus Jon made House Umber and Karstark swore allengence to House Stark not him. He said you will be our banner men and not my banner men. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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I believe the show is hinting that the fact that Jon is a Targaryen is somehow relevant to the fight against the White Walkers - hence why Bran says they need to tell him. The show hasn't revealed why it's important, presumably we'll find out when they reveal it to Jon.

I've seen a lot of posters assuming it will cause all sorts of drama vis-a-vis allegiances to House Stark in the North and therefore illogical that Jon needs to know. But it has been heavily foreshadowed that there is something about House Targaryen and the Prince that Was Promised prophecy that is key to winning the Long Night. Foreshadowed not just in the show but also the books. 

Too often criticism of the show hinges on stuff they simply haven't revealed to us yet, like Bran and the Stark sisters working together against Littlefinger. Instead of automatically assuming the show is stupid and illogical, why not give it the benefit of the doubt and assume we're not given all the information for narrative purposes. Jon's heritage is a crucial aspect of the story both in the show and the books, and the reveal of his true identity in the both and show and the books will probably have implications we are unable to fully appreciate with two books and a TV season still to come in the story. 

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1 hour ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

The lords swore to House Stark. Jon is still a member of House Stark. He just doesn't have the last name.

No hei ain't. That is the whole thing. If if he is who everyone thinks he is, then he isn't a Stark like at all. That's like claiming Bran is a Tully and thereby must be king in the Riverlands. 

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33 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

No hei ain't. That is the whole thing. If if he is who everyone thinks he is, then he isn't a Stark like at all. That's like claiming Bran is a Tully and thereby must be king in the Riverlands. 

Power resides where men think it resides. 

its certainly possible maybe even likely when Jon's parentage comes out that he no longer represents house stark and people - his siblings or the northern lords - will contest his leadership of house stark. 

But if Varys is right, than its also possible that people will still think power resides with jon because he is still a stark after all and more importantly he is the lover of the most powerful person on the show except for the Night King. 

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its certainly possible maybe even likely when Jon's parentage comes out that he no longer represents house stark

He never had. That was the whole point about Stannis' offer. And the entire point of the bastard story. The only reason for him being anything is Robb's will. And the will connections to the Mormont's. The show cuts plot points left and right.  Arghhhhh.

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51 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

No hei ain't. That is the whole thing. If if he is who everyone thinks he is, then he isn't a Stark like at all. That's like claiming Bran is a Tully and thereby must be king in the Riverlands. 

Yes but the justification that lords used. Jon is the Bastard of Winterfell. As far as they know he's a Stark child which he is. As legit Targ of Stark descendent he can inherit if all his cousins died. No? As a bastard he had no legal right to the inherit.        

Either the lords are a-holes and will blame him if their rebellion fails or they believe he is Stark enough to lead them. He's the same amount of Stark either way. One parent is a Stark and the other is not. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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2 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Yes but the justification that lords used. Jon is the Bastard of Winterfell. As far as they know he's a Stark child which he is. As legit Targ of Stark descendent he can inherit if all his cousins died. 

Given that both Jon and Benjen are Night's Watch: Even Benjen would be in front of him in the succession. I don't know why the show goes full ham regarding Jon. Must be thinking from the end. 

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11 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Given that both Jon and Benjen are Night's Watch: Even Benjen would be in front of him in the succession. I don't know why the show goes full ham regarding Jon. Must be thinking from the end. 

True but legitimacy puts him in line which is something he didnt have before. Jon could have easily been the brother to Queen/Warden Sansa Stark and he would still be going around doing his white walker thing. She could have made him the commander of Stark forces or her Queensguard. But the showrunners wants Jon in the position of power. A non King Jon would have no business going south for alliances. They are thinking endgame. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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41 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

He never had. That was the whole point about Stannis' offer. And the entire point of the bastard story. The only reason for him being anything is Robb's will. And the will connections to the Mormont's. The show cuts plot points left and right.  Arghhhhh.

In the show he is clearly the head of House Stark. You may not buy it but he is and the reason is because the Northern lords prefered a bastard son over a girl. 

Instead of Stannis it is the Northern Lords who chose him. I don't think its that crazy either that they chose him. 

It was either him or Sansa. This is a sexist society. This is a society that values martial prowes and battlefield leadership precisely the skills Jon has. 

And when push came to shove Sansa did not oppose the decision. 

Also, its not exactly crazy in universe. During the blakfyre rebellion a whole lot of houses supported Dameon Blackfyre over Dareon even though he was a bastard. And if the old man from the Sworn Sword was any indication, a big reason for it was because Dameon was a Warrior, had the sword and looked like a King in contrast to Dareon. 

Edited by jcmontea

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35 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

In the show he is clearly the head of House Stark. You may not buy it but he is and the reason is because the Northern lords prefered a bastard son over a girl. 

Instead of Stannis it is the Northern Lords who chose him. I don't think its that crazy either that they chose him. 

It was either him or Sansa. This is a sexist society. This is a society that values martial prowes and battlefield leadership precisely the skills Jon has. 

And when push came to shove Sansa did not oppose the decision. 

Also, its not exactly crazy in universe. During the blakfyre rebellion a whole lot of houses supported Dameon Blackfyre over Dareon even though he was a bastard. And if the old man from the Sworn Sword was any indication, a big reason for it was because Dameon was a Warrior, had the sword and looked like a King in contrast to Dareon. 

Arya after returning seems to support him as well. She made that clear to Sansa. Bran knows he isn't a Stark/Snow hasnt said a thing to his sisters but plotted to take down Littlefinger. It seems with their house destroyed the Stark kids are just making stuff up as they go. Jon is the oldest member of their family and they are following him damn the rules. Plus yes its a sexist society. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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17 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Arya after returning seems to support him as well. She made that clear to Sansa. Bran knows he isn't a Stark/Snow hasnt said a thing to his sisters but plotted to take down Littlefinger. It seems with their house destroyed the Stark kids are just making stuff up as they go. Jon is the oldest member of their family and they are following him damn the rules. Plus yes its a sexist society. 

Yea. When order breaks down and people don't have good options rules get thrown out the window. 

Arya never cared about him being a bastard so that is probably not going to be the reason she doesn't think Jon should be the head of the family. 

Bran just doesn't care at this point. 

Sansa accepted him "your a Stark to me" (6x10) and when she suggests Bran should be lord of Winterfell is shut down by Bran. 

If none of the Stark siblings care about who is the "rightful" ruler why would anyone else.

its possible this also foreshadows how Jon will deal with him being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. If none of his siblings asserted there rights vis-a-vis him, why would he assert his rights against Daenerys? 

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