Hajk1984

"He has to know, we have to tell him..." WHY?

229 posts in this topic

52 minutes ago, falcotron said:

ETA: At any rate, we don't have to guess whether it could be a problem. Both Jon and Davos were sure there was a big risk. Either nothing's changed, so there's still a big risk, or people know that HOLY SHIT THE DEAD ARE THROUGH THE WALL WHO CARES WHO THE KING IS NOW, so it's not even worth discussing.

Given how the episode ended, this is what is most likely. Maybe Jon realized that this is about to happen very soon after the wight hunt.

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Do people really think that the show is going to invalidate Danny's claim to the throne on the basis of gender? Dany has spent her entire arc fighting to become Queen. Jon literally just found out he has a better claim in part 1 of the last season. The audience has invested in Dany claiming the throne and if Jon can't or won't marry Dany then the get out of jail card won't work. I can't see why they would invalidate Danny's entire arc just to allow Jon to be King of the North AND a Targaryen King; which we have been given no reason to want to see. 

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Even if they both find out that Jon has a better claim, he has already pledged himself to "Queen Daenerys of House Targaryen", and he's the most honorable man she will ever meet. He's also the son of Rhaegar, a man Dany idolizes despite not having met him.

I'm afraid that the writers will cause tension between them just for the sake of creating tension.
I'll be annoyed if they'll both go "Ewww, we're blood related" when they find out, it would most certainly be out of character for Dany, but probably for Jon as well to some extent.

Edited by MinscS2

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37 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Where else should that succession have gone? She's the last king's closest living relative. No children or even siblings of Tommen exist. The Baratheon house, to which he supposedly belonged has gone extinct. 

She's not a relative of Robert's at all. She's his widow. The throne should presumably have gone to the nearest blood relative.

And Cersei's not even attempting to maintain the appearance of a link to the Baratheons (I believe the costume designer said as much). She's crowned herself as a Lannister, her trappings are Lannister, her armies are Lannister...

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1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Do people really think that the show is going to invalidate Danny's claim to the throne on the basis of gender? Dany has spent her entire arc fighting to become Queen. Jon literally just found out he has a better claim in part 1 of the last season. The audience has invested in Dany claiming the throne and if Jon can't or won't marry Dany then the get out of jail card won't work. I can't see why they would invalidate Danny's entire arc just to allow Jon to be King of the North AND a Targaryen King; which we have been given no reason to want to see. 

Just for an opposing side -- I am not invested in seeing Dany get the throne that she CONSTANTLY claims is hers, and I think the idea that someone else has a better claim is quite the comeuppance to Ms. 27 Titles.  Frankly, I don't think Jon wants the throne but he does have the better claim, in fact he was born for it.  And died for it.  The fact that you indicated we have no reason to want to see is your opinion.  Not mine. 

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Interesting topic, quite complex as well.

Sure the legitimacy issue is important or at the very, very least has the potential of changing various dynamics in the game.  However, Bran was hell bent on telling Jon prior to Sam telling him about this.  He said that to Sansa in the godsgood although he didn't specifically reveal why, that he needs to speak to Jon.  This was before Bran knew about the legitimacy so the blood line alone is important in some regard, or it would appear to be that way.

Now, this also opens the question as to why he didn't tell Sansa the reason.  The obvious one I guess is that he couldn't risk LF finding out, so he seems willing to talk to Sam about it but not Sansa or certainly not prior to disclosing what he knew about LF.

It is also not impossible that Bran has a tip or two to give to Jon re defeating WWs but that information is too crucial and for Jon's ears alone...

Yes, telling Jon now can potentially backfire especially given his tendency to speak the truth at all times.  It could make Dany worry that he has conveniently hooked up with her so that she doesn't oppose his own claim to the Iron Throne.  Of course if Dany knows him at all she will know that he has no interest in this.  Still, although for different reasons, he refused to bend the knee for some considerable time and only when the attraction between them became obvious he did so, so this could potentially look suspicious to her.  Indeed she may even worry about him supplanting her.

Also, yes if he goes all out with this information, the Northern Lords may stop trusting him and think that he is after a bigger kingdom especially if he reveals his relationship with Dany and/or possible intention to marry her, although even without that factor since he is the legitimate heir.  They may feel as if he has sold them out.  Not true but they may start again looking at Sansa or possibly even Bran as a replacement...  Of course yes, once the fight comes south of the Wall, which seems imminent the Northern Lords will have to rally after whoever has a chance to save their bacon but still.  Bran has the WWs pretty much in mind as the main war to come so he know that hence he may think that telling Jon cannot harm for long as the Northern Lords will come around sooner rather than later.

It is also possible that Bran has an incline in terms of Jon's destiny being also connected with the IT (an element that appears to be touched upon in the interview with Isaac) so he needs to ensure that Jon has time to consider possibilities in this regard.

Personally, I think that the incest situation is of secondary importance and yes there have been uncle/niece marriages in the Stark family before (or aunt/nephew - cannot recall).  However, it is still plausible that he wants him to make an informed decision about this.  Too late, sure, especially if she is with child but oh, hey.

Of course most of  the Starks seem to be of the mind that one must always speak the truth although, to me, keeping something to yourself is not exactly the same as an outright lie.  Still, Bran probably thinks that Jon has the right to know.  This contrasts with what Ned, for all his honour, did and ended up taking the secret to the grave, although arguably this was to prevent Jon from coming to harm and Robert was still alive the last time he saw Jon.

A thought that has now come to my mind and seems to make sense is that the emphasis that ep 7 had on him not lying to Cersei was droned onto us a little too much.  I can now see this as foreshadowing of what Jon may do once he has this information re his true origins.

The key here would be for Jon to keep it quiet.  If he needs to know so that he has more ammunition against WW, great but it would certainly be better for most concerned at least if he didn't make it public knowledge straight away.

Now, whether he ought to tell Dany or not is another matter... He will certainly feel that she has the right to know as it affects her on various levels, so it is a given that he will certainly tell her.  Again, although I am sure we will see conflict between these characters I think it will be short lived and likely less intense than the way Sansa/Arya were portrayed most of this season.

WIth or without Euron and the Golden Company Team Dany once again will start a season in the strongest position so I am sure various members of the team, certainly including Tyrion, will start fighting among themselves despite all having had said that they need unity.  Cersei is unlikely to come up North looking for WW trouble so let her have KL for now... Euron on the other hand seems like a real loose cannon so nothing from him would surprise me but either way Team Dany has to stay together and I am pretty certain after the odd squabble will be.  Okay, I have digressed a bit here but all in all I think whatever negative consequences this revelation may bring about they will not be catastrophic long term.

What I would certainly advise both Dany and Jon but Jon very specifically is please, pretty pleas for now keep your relationship quiet.  In fact looking back on ep 7 again this may at least in part explain Tyrion's odd look, especially as this happened once it became obvious that Jon would tell the truth no matter what the circumstances.  Specially with the Northern Lords and other possible allies also this may sound too much as if Jon's judgement in supporting this "foreign" Queen has been totally clouded by his hormones lol and Tyrion should know since he is the one who has been know to lose his head over a woman well and truly lol

If she is indeed with child and they intend to marry this will come out of course but it would be much better IMHO thought to pass this as a political marriage to secure her power in the fight against WWs.  So all in all I think that him telling the truth to Cersei re having bent the knee and all the fuss that various people made over this, Tyrion especially, is just a precursor for what it is to come when Jon has to decide whether or not to disclose this revelation.

Okay, I may not have answer the OP completely re Bran's logic or lack thereof but this is what comes to my mind right now. :)

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1 hour ago, Hajk1984 said:

Where else should that succession have gone? She's the last king's closest living relative. No children or even siblings of Tommen exist. The Baratheon house, to which he supposedly belonged has gone extinct. 

It's more she has the military claim than any legal one, much as Robert did.

It is interesting to note, though, that the deaths of the Baratheons, Martells and Tyrells has removed all other distant claimants, including those through marriage, except for Cersei's brothers (one of whom is a kingsguard, the other is attainted). So in that respect, she can kind of prove that there is nobody else to hold the claim.

The main reason she is on the Iron Throne is because the story writes decreed it so, despite all logic. The people of King's Landing clearly said, "How peculiar, a quarter of the city blue up in green magical fire. Cersei, who betrayed all of her allies and who we threw fruit and faeces at just the other day for being a liar, says it was an accident. I believe her."

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1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Do people really think that the show is going to invalidate Danny's claim to the throne on the basis of gender? Dany has spent her entire arc fighting to become Queen. Jon literally just found out he has a better claim in part 1 of the last season. The audience has invested in Dany claiming the throne and if Jon can't or won't marry Dany then the get out of jail card won't work. I can't see why they would invalidate Danny's entire arc just to allow Jon to be King of the North AND a Targaryen King; which we have been given no reason to want to see. 

First, it's not about gender—Jon would also come ahead of Viserys, because the heir's heir comes before the heir's brother.

But, more importantly, I doubt it's going to be about Jon's claim blocking Dany, it's going to be about Dany coming to terms with the fact that she doesn't have the best claim, and yet she's going to get the throne anyway, and deserves to. And that doesn't invalidate her arc, it's the whole point of her arc.

And (unless they do a really bad job pulling it off), it will work even better for the audience. No viewer really wants Dany to be Queen because they care deeply about the arcane details of medieval primogeniture rules; they want Dany to be Queen because she's gone through a lot to get there, and because what she's learned will make her a good Queen (or at the very least an interesting failure to watch).

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Legitimacy and line of succession mean almost nothing in Westeros. Anyone with an army has a claim to the throne through right of conquest (ironic that they named Jon 'Aegon' after one such conqueror).

It's therefore laughable that mystical beings such as the 3ER are so fixated on Jon's parentage.

I view it as a really contrived and forced way of making Jon even more of a Chosen One character than he already is, while also tapping into the same kind of human drama that makes shows like Jerry Springer so popular.

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40 minutes ago, Yukle said:

It is interesting to note, though, that the deaths of the Baratheons, Martells and Tyrells has removed all other distant claimants, including those through marriage, except for Cersei's brothers (one of whom is a kingsguard, the other is attainted). So in that respect, she can kind of prove that there is nobody else to hold the claim.

Jaime isn't in the KG anymore, by royal decree. I don't know why so many people forget this—Jaime did get out of both of Tywin's attempts to remove him, but the High Sparrow convinced Tommen to do it just last season. So, if he wanted to challenge Cersei for the throne, he might have a case. But of course he doesn't. And I'm not sure who would support his claim if he wanted to push it, so it's pretty irrelevant anyway.

Anyway, we have plenty of evidence (although not as much in the show as in the books) that Westerosi widows can inherit at least Lordships—sometimes even ahead of uncles and cousins and the like. The only question is whether that applies to the crown, but that kind of question is exactly what you have succession wars (or Great Councils, if everyone is feeling especially nice) to settle.

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Bran knows he has to tell Jon because the Three Eyed Crow showed him who Jon was at the ToJ. Obviously the TEC had a reason.

Besides, Jon should know his parentage or he might end up boinking his aunt or something.

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2 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

Given how the episode ended, this is what is most likely. Maybe Jon realized that this is about to happen very soon after the wight hunt.

I think they might get in one scene of "You bent the knee!" tension, and maybe Jon-Sansa tension, before the reports come in and everyone says, "Yeah, we don't care anymore." But I can't see them doing much more than one scene with only 6 episodes to go (and probably even less than that, if Cersei rather than the NK is really the end boos).

I don't know whether Jon guessed that in universe, or just got lucky (if you can call the imminent threat of the end of humanity lucky…), but it doesn't matter that much in the end.

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23 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Jaime isn't in the KG anymore, by royal decree. I don't know why so many people forget this—Jaime did get out of both of Tywin's attempts to remove him, but the High Sparrow convinced Tommen to do it just last season. So, if he wanted to challenge Cersei for the throne, he might have a case. But of course he doesn't. And I'm not sure who would support his claim if he wanted to push it, so it's pretty irrelevant anyway.

Actually, I forgot about that, because in the book he refuses to step aside and takes his role as the Lord Commander seriously.

The show seems to have forgotten this point, and just patched it over, I think. It's not the first time they've been a bit sloppy with details.

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3 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

Where else should that succession have gone? She's the last king's closest living relative. No children or even siblings of Tommen exist. The Baratheon house, to which he supposedly belonged has gone extinct. 

No, she isn't. It is not possible for lordships or kingships to work backwards. We aren't trying to find somebody to give Cousin Albert's coin collection to. Tommen because king because Robert was. There is no path to monarchy back up to Cersei. 

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Why is this even a question?  Everyone deserves to know the truth and Jon lives for the truth.  Bran knows this and that's why he wants to tell him.

The only part of this info I can see spinning Jon out is knowing he fucked his aunt.  Everything else will make him happy.

The northern lords will overlook Jon being a Targ in the same way they overlooked the fact that he left the Night's Watch.  Besides, this confirms he's still half Stark (and legitimate at that), and they can't complain about that.

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2 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

She's not a relative of Robert's at all. She's his widow. The throne should presumably have gone to the nearest blood relative.

And Cersei's not even attempting to maintain the appearance of a link to the Baratheons (I believe the costume designer said as much). She's crowned herself as a Lannister, her trappings are Lannister, her armies are Lannister...

Yeah but the last king was Tommen. The one before him was Joffrey. At least that is their claim. She is certainly related to them.

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8 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

He just found out that Jon was legitimate. Jon's parentage wasn't legally significant if he was a bastard. It's brand new info to Bran that Jon is the rightful King. It's not for Bran to weigh this, that and the other reason for why it may or may not be beneficial for Jon to know.* Jon's birthright is Jon's business, and he deserves to know about it.

There may be a legit question as to why he hasn't told him what he knows previously, but that's probably just because it wasn't that important and Bran is pre-occupied. But there really isn't any question as to whether he should tell Jon now. Of course he should.

*Plus there are plenty of reasons to weigh on the other side, starting with the fact that folks are about to go to war to fight for their future, and should know what it is they are fighting for. 

He has a right to know who his parents are.  Plus, he is keeping the promise Ned made to Jon for him.

He hasn't even seen Jon yet!  That's not the kind of news you give someone by raven.

The truth is often painful.  Doesn't mean it shouldn't be told.

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45 minutes ago, Yukle said:

Actually, I forgot about that, because in the book he refuses to step aside and takes his role as the Lord Commander seriously.

The show seems to have forgotten this point, and just patched it over, I think. It's not the first time they've been a bit sloppy with details.

He rejects Tywin's offer to release him the same way as in the books, with the same reasoning.

The second time, when Tywin tries to bribe Jaime to accept by offering… something to do with Tyrion's trial, I can't remember exactly what… I'm pretty sure he at first refuses, then dithers over it, then lets Tyrion escape instead, and he's definitely still in the KG after that.

It's only the third time that he leaves, when he isn't given a choice. Tommen makes a deal with the High Sparrow to save Margy, and then comes out an announces to Jaime that he's out of the KG, and he's too stunned to react. Obviously the final Cersei-Sparrow confrontation isn't going to go exactly the same way in the books as in the show, but the books haven't gotten there yet, so we don't know whether Jaime being kicked out of the KG is a show change or not.

And I don't think the show has forgotten. Jaime doesn't wear the same uniform as Gregor and the nameless redshirts who may or may not be the rest of Cersei's KG, and he never stands with them. He seems (well, did until the end of last episode) to be still acting as general of the Queen's armies or whatever Tommen named him, and as some kind of advisor-without-portfolio on Cersei's two-man Small Council, not as a KG member.

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

I think they might get in one scene of "You bent the knee!" tension, and maybe Jon-Sansa tension, before the reports come in and everyone says, "Yeah, we don't care anymore." But I can't see them doing much more than one scene with only 6 episodes to go (and probably even less than that, if Cersei rather than the NK is really the end boos).

I don't know whether Jon guessed that in universe, or just got lucky (if you can call the imminent threat of the end of humanity lucky…), but it doesn't matter that much in the end.

Yeah Jon does get lucky a lot (no, not in a filthy way:rolleyes:). Mostly it's him getting stuck in apparently hopeless situations and then one woman or another has to show up to pull his ass out of it.

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2 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

She's not a relative of Robert's at all. She's his widow. The throne should presumably have gone to the nearest blood relative.

And Cersei's not even attempting to maintain the appearance of a link to the Baratheons (I believe the costume designer said as much). She's crowned herself as a Lannister, her trappings are Lannister, her armies are Lannister...

I guess they took inspiration for this from messy, illogical 18th century Russian history.  Peter III was overthrown by his wife, a German princess with no claim to the throne of Russia, who reigned as Catherine II (the Great).

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