Hajk1984

"He has to know, we have to tell him..." WHY?

229 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

So Bran keeps quiet about Jon's parentage all season and never tells his sisters. But somehow, now, in the middle of the greatest existential threat the North has ever faced, he "has to " reveal a secret that can cause heavy tension at the very top of the coalition that Jon has built to oppose it. Dropping this secret at this time immediately opens up the following problems:

1. Jon's dedication and loyalty to the North, in fact his whole self-image is based on being Ned Stark's bastard. Putting a leader of the war in a severe identity crisis during a war seems unwise.

2. The incest thing may potentially cause severe heartache for both Jon and Dany, who are both pivotal at this stage.

3. Jon's rival claim to the Iron Throne can cause severe mistrust with Dany (as opposed to the deep trust he seems to have now) and that cannot make sense at the highest levels of your command structure.

So why does Bran "have to" drop this truth at this point? Why not maintain silence until the threat is dealt with? Whatever Jon's concerns about his mother's identity may be, for now he is in a stable state of mind and focused on the issue at hand. Which is what is needed. 

1. I don't see Jon having an Identity Crisis when he finds out. He's still a Stark. He's also has bonus family now, and he's not a bastard. That's an all around win.

2. Hopefully the incest (which really isn't) will be ignored, since only 21st Century people who aren't history nerds seem to have a problem with it. It's not only legal today on Earth, but Nobles and Royals have been doing it for centuries to keep the property from falling into the wrong hands.

3. I honestly hope Dany has zero problem. Why would she? Cersei is all ego, Dany isn't. The rightful succession is important to her, and when it's not her, but the man she loves, that makes her a better person is, I think she'll be the first to bend the knee, and without hesitation. Jon is not only family, he's the closest thing to Rhaegar she'll ever know.

4. Bran..... yeah. Maybe it will give everyone more drive? 

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9 minutes ago, Tywinelle said:

Why is this even a question?  Everyone deserves to know the truth and Jon lives for the truth.  Bran knows this and that's why he wants to tell him.

The only part of this info I can see spinning Jon out is knowing he fucked his aunt.  Everything else will make him happy.

The northern lords will overlook Jon being a Targ in the same way they overlooked the fact that he left the Night's Watch.  Besides, this confirms he's still half Stark (and legitimate at that), and they can't complain about that.

It's a question because telling the truth may not be the best idea in many situations. After all Ned lied all through Jon's life, both to him and to everyone else to protect him. Here the reason would be to avoid any tensions in the alliance and to keep Jon (one of its two main leaders) focused.

 

23 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

No, she isn't. It is not possible for lordships or kingships to work backwards. We aren't trying to find somebody to give Cousin Albert's coin collection to. Tommen because king because Robert was. There is no path to monarchy back up to Cersei. 

Is this canonically true? Have D&D really pulled such a massive impossibility out of the air which is impossible for Martin's universe?

1 hour ago, hallam said:

Bran knows he has to tell Jon because the Three Eyed Crow showed him who Jon was at the ToJ. Obviously the TEC had a reason.

Besides, Jon should know his parentage or he might end up boinking his aunt or something.

Yeah, that boinking his aunt has already happened. So Bran has dropped the ball on that one big time. And Bran has known about Rhaegar being his father for a while now (which is how Dany becomes his aunt). Bran does not seem to have been much bothered by whatever relationship he may have sen developing between them despite this.The only thing Samwell adds is Jon's legitimacy (and hence claim to the IT).

1 hour ago, hallam said:

Bran knows he has to tell Jon because the Three Eyed Crow showed him who Jon was at the ToJ. Obviously the TEC had a reason.

This may conceivably tie into The Prince that was Promised prophecy. The books show this to be a Targaryen obsession. But the show hasn't put much emphasis on it. Despite the fact that at this juncture the mos likely candidate seems to be Daenerys.

3 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Even if they both find out that Jon has a better claim, he has already pledged himself to "Queen Daenerys of House Targaryen", and he's the most honorable man she will ever meet. He's also the son of Rhaegar, a man Dany idolizes despite not having met him.

I'm afraid that the writers will cause tension between them just for the sake of creating tension.
I'll be annoyed if they'll both go "Ewww, we're blood related" when they find out, it would most certainly be out of character for Dany, but probably for Jon as well to some extent.

In terms of the books it would be absurd for Dany to care. She is even comfortable with the idea of marrying full siblings. Emilia says that Dany has been trying to escape the Targaryen tendency to fall into incest. I'm not sure what she is referring to here.

His pledge is somewhat difficult to deal with here. He was a different man. This information can screw up his entire identity. The "son of Ned Stark" as Cersei reminds us would never break a vow. But he isn't that.

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21 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

No, she isn't. It is not possible for lordships or kingships to work backwards. We aren't trying to find somebody to give Cousin Albert's coin collection to. Tommen because king because Robert was. There is no path to monarchy back up to Cersei. 

There is, as Robert's widow. Just as, for example, Lady Donella inherited from her husband (over his sister and his bastard son), and then her widower Ramsay Snow inherited from her.

Sure, it's not an open-and-shut case, but there seems to be more precedent for it than against it. More to the point, everyone in the realm is either supporting her inheritance from Robert, or rejecting Robert's usurpation in the first place, in favor of a Targaryen restoration. So in practice, her claim stands as strong as Robert's.

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3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Do people really think that the show is going to invalidate Danny's claim to the throne on the basis of gender? Dany has spent her entire arc fighting to become Queen. Jon literally just found out he has a better claim in part 1 of the last season. The audience has invested in Dany claiming the throne and if Jon can't or won't marry Dany then the get out of jail card won't work. I can't see why they would invalidate Danny's entire arc just to allow Jon to be King of the North AND a Targaryen King; which we have been given no reason to want to see. 

We're all trying to guess what the plot might say. In this world, gender is a disqualifier for the Iron Throne unless there is no other choice. The whole Dance of the Dragon's conflict was over this, in fact. The question is what they will do to get around it. The object isn't insurmountable of course. One way around it for Dany to say "screw the line of succession, I have the armies and dragons who follow me personally rather than my hereditary claim, I'm taking it by force right of conquest!" It would undermine her prior views of Robert being usurper who took her right since this is what Robert did too.

Would they go that way? If Jon is unwilling to go for marriage (which seems like the easy solution given Dany's acceptance of Valyrian marriage norms, and the fact that they already seem to be in love at this point), what is she going to decide? They might give her the Iron Throne at the end, but these are real obstacles they have thrown in her path.

 

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28 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Yeah Jon does get lucky a lot (no, not in a filthy way:rolleyes:). Mostly it's him getting stuck in apparently hopeless situations and then one woman or another has to show up to pull his ass out of it.

I'm not sure I'd want his luck. Which sounds better:

  • Getting stabbed to death by your own followers but then miraculously get brought back to life, or just not getting stabbed to death?
  • Being left for dead in the middle of an undead army but then miraculously rescued by your undead uncle, or not being left for dead in the middle of an undead army?
  • Causing a potential problem with his followers but then not having to deal with it because his realm is invaded by an unstoppable army of the dead, or causing a potential problem with his followers but then having to deal with it.
  • And so on…

 

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Bran has to tell him because Bran Is A Jerk now.

"Sansa, you were so beautiful on your wedding night when you were raped."

"Meera, thank you for sacrificing your brother's life and dragging my crippled ass across hundreds of miles of snow in both directions.  Now GTFO."

"Jon, you're actually my cousin and Dany's your aunt.  Just thought I'd tell you that AFTER you started boning her."

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12 minutes ago, Frances Bean Corbray said:

Bran has to tell him because Bran Is A Jerk now.

"Sansa, you were so beautiful on your wedding night when you were raped."

"Meera, thank you for sacrificing your brother's life and dragging my crippled ass across hundreds of miles of snow in both directions.  Now GTFO."

"Jon, you're actually my cousin and Dany's your aunt.  Just thought I'd tell you that AFTER you started boning her."

LOLOLOL... Occam's razor. Bran is a jerk. It explains everything.

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13 minutes ago, falcotron said:

I'm not sure I'd want his luck. Which sounds better:

  • Getting stabbed to death by your own followers but then miraculously get brought back to life, or just not getting stabbed to death?
  • Being left for dead in the middle of an undead army but then miraculously rescued by your undead uncle, or not being left for dead in the middle of an undead army?
  • Causing a potential problem with his followers but then not having to deal with it because his realm is invaded by an unstoppable army of the dead, or causing a potential problem with his followers but then having to deal with it.
  • And so on…

 

If you're the type who will get into the insanely dangerous situations he gets into then his luck is useful. Most people have the foresight not to get into them in the first place,

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28 minutes ago, Tywinelle said:

I guess they took inspiration for this from messy, illogical 18th century Russian history.  Peter III was overthrown by his wife, a German princess with no claim to the throne of Russia, who reigned as Catherine II (the Great).

Catherine is far from the only example in real-world history, and they weren't all the result of a coup like her.

But it does seem much, much more common in Westeros than in our world, especially in the late-medieval period that Westeros mostly mirrors.*

Not sure why that is, but there are a lot of little details of Westerosi law that are unique, and you can never tell when GRRM is intentionally making things different for flavor, when he's relying on some author that most other people disagree with, and when he just didn't do any research because it wasn't important enough.

---

* It was a bit more common in the early medieval era. And a lot more common, in an informal way, for a couple decades in the mid 20th century, but that's a weird story.

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I'm not sure how much interest or allegiance the Northern lords will have in Jon Snow as KiTN when they hear he bent the knee to Daenerys and pledged her the support of the North; and learning that he is the supposed Targaryen heir might make them rethink Sansa Stark's suitability to rule the North, or even little Lyanna Mormont.

Also, unless Sam Tarly thought to bring the High Septon's diary containing the crucial entry about the annulment of the Rhaegar/Elia marriage and the secret marriage of Rhaegar & Lyanna, there's no proof beyond the supposed visions of a creepy teenaged boy and the word of Jon Snow's best friend.  We saw Sam leave the High Septon's diary in the Citadel; so unless he went back and grabbed it before leaving, I don't think too many people will take the claim of Jon's legitimate Targaryen roots seriously.  Even if he's riding Rhaegal; they could assume that Jon cannot be the Targaryen heir, only Lyanna's bastard by Rhaegar.  

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2 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

It's a question because telling the truth may not be the best idea in many situations. After all Ned lied all through Jon's life, both to him and to everyone else to protect him. Here the reason would be to avoid any tensions in the alliance and to keep Jon (one of its two main leaders) focused.

That's not a strong reason IMO.

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When Bran speaks, keep in mind he could be speaking as 3ER or Bran.

As 3ER he might want Jon to know, because it's needed for other events to happen.

As Bran it could be because he cares for his brother, and he (maybe mistakenly) thinks Jon would like to know he's not a bastard, and that his farther was someone cool and not just Ned Stark :P

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7 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

She's not a relative of Robert's at all. She's his widow. The throne should presumably have gone to the nearest blood relative.

And Cersei's not even attempting to maintain the appearance of a link to the Baratheons (I believe the costume designer said as much). She's crowned herself as a Lannister, her trappings are Lannister, her armies are Lannister...

Yep, that's genealogy 101.  Cersei wasn't a blood relative of king Robert's so she wasn't in line to the throne by virtue of having been his wife.  They really should have included something to show that the people didn't just accept it without question to make it more believable.

It's also pretty illogical how she's just dropped her dead husband's name.  Widows normally retained their married names, just as Lysa, Catelyn and Olenna did.

Kind of related, did you notice that even way back at Joffrey's wedding among the decorations there were only "L-s" for Lannister, there were no "B-s" for Baratheon?  I'm sure it was an oversight but it came across to me like a subtle way of thumbing their noses at all the talk of "Joffrey is a Lannister without an ounce of Baratheon blood".

Edited by storm.131
addition

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4 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

His pledge is somewhat difficult to deal with here. He was a different man. This information can screw up his entire identity. The "son of Ned Stark" as Cersei reminds us would never break a vow. But he isn't that.

I honestly think it will make Jon feel closer to Ned, and he will love and respect him more because of the lengths he went to protect not only Jon's identity, but he lied to his entire family, especially Cat, all to protect them.

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4 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

Do people really think that the show is going to invalidate Danny's claim to the throne on the basis of gender? Dany has spent her entire arc fighting to become Queen. Jon literally just found out he has a better claim in part 1 of the last season. The audience has invested in Dany claiming the throne and if Jon can't or won't marry Dany then the get out of jail card won't work. I can't see why they would invalidate Danny's entire arc just to allow Jon to be King of the North AND a Targaryen King; which we have been given no reason to want to see. 

Dany doesn't have a valid claim. It doesn't matter what the audience is "invested in." That's not how the the Line of Succession works. 

It's like saying the person who has five numbers but not the Powerball, should win the jackpot over the person who has all five + Powerball, just because the audience was introduced to them first and their more invested.... 

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Jon has to know this because of Daenerys three treasons.

The treason for love must be something to do with Jon.

Edited by Marlom

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1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

We saw Sam leave the High Septon's diary in the Citadel; so unless he went back and grabbed it before leaving, I don't think too many people will take the claim of Jon's legitimate Targaryen roots seriously.

Actually, we saw Sam take books from the library in the middle of the night, pack up a cart, and get the hell out of Old Town. We never saw that diary Gilly was reading in any place other than in front of Gilly.

But it doesn't matter. I doubt Sam would have taken it, as it likely doesn't have any information about the Walkers, which is his only concern at the time, because he had no reason to suspect Jon was anyone other than who he said he was.

Either everyone will believe Bran & Sam, or we'll get to finally meet Howland Reed, which is why they sent Meera home. 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Marlom said:

Jon has to know this because of Daenerys three treasons.

The treason for love must be something to do with Jon.

I hope not. I don't see Jon betraying her, unless she turns crazy, and Cersei already has that monopoly.

Dany's treasons... 

Once for blood - Mirri Maz Duur 

Once for gold - had to be Joreh I'd think

Once for love - Mirri Maz Duur because she takes advantage of Dany's assumption Mirri would be grateful to be spared mistreatment by the Khalasar to trust her, then uses Dany's love for Drogo, and betrays her for two reasons.

I feel like Viserys really needs to fit into that, but I just can't think of a way... maybe I just need sleep.

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It's just the decent thing to do. If you were in Jon's position and a friend or family member found out a big secret like that, how you feel if they kept it to themselves because they decided you don't need to know right now? Plus he's the king. You don't get to just keep secrets like that from the king.

12 hours ago, falcotron said:

On the one hand, Bran's confusion seems to be making him pretty deficient in empathy right now. He might not be considering the effects on Jon and Dany as people in the first place. He has to tell Jon because it's the right thing to do. A normal person might balance that against the fact that Jon's got bigger things on his mind and the distraction could seriously get in the way, but Bran might not consider that.

I like this. Encyclopedia Bran just thinks knowledge = good. The more the better.

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33 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I hope not. I don't see Jon betraying her, unless she turns crazy, and Cersei already has that monopoly.

Dany's treasons... 

Once for blood - Mirri Maz Duur 

Once for gold - had to be Joreh I'd think

Once for love - Mirri Maz Duur because she takes advantage of Dany's assumption Mirri would be grateful to be spared mistreatment by the Khalasar to trust her, then uses Dany's love for Drogo, and betrays her for two reasons.

I feel like Viserys really needs to fit into that, but I just can't think of a way... maybe I just need sleep.

My guess: she is the betrayer in all three cases, and she will be the one betraying Jon. I mean, I'm not trying bash Dany here, but out of the two, who is more likely to betray the other? She is the more pragmatic one, and although she mostly tries to be decent, she has a far more flexible approach to truth, lies and loyalty than Jon.

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