Hajk1984

"He has to know, we have to tell him..." WHY?

229 posts in this topic

22 hours ago, Krishtotter said:

That kind of co-rulership has precedent.

After the Glorious Revolution (1688-89) in England, William of Orange - a foreign invader from Holland - deposed King James II & VII and assumed the throne by right of conquest as recognised by the Convention Parliament alongside his wife Mary, the eldest daughter of James, who reigned with him as co-monarch. She assumed the throne by right of inheritance, now that Parliament had disinherited James' son Francis Charles Edward on the basis of his being raised in the Catholic confession.

So William and Mary reigned as joint monarchs of the Three Kingdoms of England, Scotland and Ireland:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution

 

 

William and Mary were first cousins, incidentally (incest!!). Both were grandchildren of Charles I of England, James II's father. So in addition to being a foreign invader with a claim to the throne based upon conquest, and having married the legitimate heir once Parliament had deemed Catholics ineligible, William was also half-Stuart - a descendent through his mother Mary, Princess Royal, of the British ruling House.

In the ASOIAF universe, the gender roles would be reversed: Daenerys plays the role of the foreign conqueror William, while Jon is akin to Mary.

This could then be the George R.R. Martin/Westerosi equivalent of what the UK still calls the Glorious Revolution of 1688: when England - acting in the name of all Three Kingdoms - installed a foreign, conquering king and queen on the understanding that they'd "break the wheel" — the Stuart kings who thought they ruled by divine right - by adopting a limited, constitutional monarchy that was accountable to Parliament unlike what had preceded under the Tudors and prior Stuarts.

 

The only thing I thought when I read this was this is so how the story is going to end. Everything is pointing in this direction.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 1 September 2017 at 4:05 PM, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I'm not sure how much interest or allegiance the Northern lords will have in Jon Snow as KiTN when they hear he bent the knee to Daenerys and pledged her the support of the North; and learning that he is the supposed Targaryen heir might make them rethink Sansa Stark's suitability to rule the North, or even little Lyanna Mormont.

Also, unless Sam Tarly thought to bring the High Septon's diary containing the crucial entry about the annulment of the Rhaegar/Elia marriage and the secret marriage of Rhaegar & Lyanna, there's no proof beyond the supposed visions of a creepy teenaged boy and the word of Jon Snow's best friend.  We saw Sam leave the High Septon's diary in the Citadel; so unless he went back and grabbed it before leaving, I don't think too many people will take the claim of Jon's legitimate Targaryen roots seriously.  Even if he's riding Rhaegal; they could assume that Jon cannot be the Targaryen heir, only Lyanna's bastard by Rhaegar.  

but they believed Bran when it came to Littlefinger? Also I think Sam and Gilly packed up those books in that scene and took them with them if I do recall correctly.

 

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9 hours ago, jcmontea said:

 

The only thing I thought when I read this was this is so how the story is going to end. Everything is pointing in this direction.

 

 

 

 

 

I would have to agree on this...

 

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2 hours ago, Balerion's Mother said:

but they believed Bran when it came to Littlefinger? Also I think Sam and Gilly packed up those books in that scene and took them with them if I do recall correctly.

 

I'm not sure it matters to the Starks if Jon is legitimate or not. He will still be their brother. I think Bran wanted to tell Jon he wasn't Ned's Bastard but Lyanna's. And that their father hid him from Robert. Bran thought Jon was a Sand up until Sam came to see him. 

But yes I think Sam packed the books too.  

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On 03/09/2017 at 11:38 PM, Krishtotter said:

That kind of co-rulership has precedent.

After the Glorious Revolution (1688-89) in England, William of Orange - a foreign invader from Holland - deposed King James II & VII and assumed the throne by right of conquest as recognised by the Convention Parliament alongside his wife Mary, the eldest daughter of James, who reigned with him as co-monarch. She assumed the throne by right of inheritance, now that Parliament had disinherited James' son Francis Charles Edward on the basis of his being raised in the Catholic confession.

So William and Mary reigned as joint monarchs of the Three Kingdoms of England, Scotland and Ireland:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution

 

And in terms of ASOIAF, I think Daenerys and Jon/Aegon being co-rulers, is consistent with their respective character development and it fits into the theme of building a better world.

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On ‎03‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 5:46 PM, divica said:

What you say might actually happen. So far jon feels he as the duty to serve and protect the north. So when he learns he is the heir to the IT he might feel he has a duty to protect the seven realms and make sure the people from all realms are governed by a good monarch (not cersei).

Honestly I don t know how jon can tell danny. Is she suposed to believe that bran is actually seeing the past and telling the thruth? The only proof we have so far is bran's word and sam's word on rhaegar and lyanna's marriage... If they can t shown some proof even jon is going to find it hard to believe because it would mean ned lied to him his whole life and let him join the NW whitout telling him the thruth... That should be unforgivable...

Ned would of course still be Jon's uncle and I think it would be easy for Jon to see why he lied to him due to the threat of Robert coming after him were the truth revealed.

As you say I think the setup is much more for Jon NOT to tell Dany, his claim would actually have very little evidence to back it up if made aggressively, very different to LF's trial where those convicting him knew he was guilty personally and trusted Bran. However if we have a situation where Jon has hidden it from Dany and she finds out(maybe from Sam?) then its obviously much easier for her to believe it as he would seemingly not be acting for his own gain. After that point things could I think go two ways, either Jon's background only matters in terms of personal drama and potentially abilities(Dragon control, fire resistance) or his claim is given credibility because Dany herself backs it.

Edited by MoreOrLess

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12 minutes ago, MoreOrLess said:

Ned would of course still be Jon's uncle and I think it would be easy for Jon to see why he lied to him due to the threat of Robert coming after him were the truth revealed.

As you say I think the setup is much more for Jon NOT to tell Dany, his claim would actually have very little evidence to back it up if made aggressively, very different to LF's trial where those convicting him knew he was guilty personally and trusted Bran. However if we have a situation where Jon has hidden it from Dany and she finds out(maybe from Sam?) then its obviously much easier for her to believe it as he would seemingly not be acting for his own gain. After that point things could I think go two ways, either Jon's background only matters in terms of personal drama and potentially abilities(Dragon control, fire resistance) or his claim is given credibility because Dany herself backs it.

Also is a diary a legal document? Does the king have to sign the annulment? Tyrion could advise her to recognize Jon as a nephew but no a legitimate heir. That's what I would do. Find a legal basis to keep Jon a bastard and not harm Dany's claim. 

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13 hours ago, MoreOrLess said:

After that point things could I think go two ways, either Jon's background only matters in terms of personal drama and potentially abilities(Dragon control, fire resistance) or his claim is given credibility because Dany herself backs it.

This second option has some support from the books. In them it is mentioned that Daenerys is the only one whose claim is beyond any doubt. The supporters of the supposed Aegon (not in the show) are desperate that she acknowledge him (he has the Golden Company supporting him) as only that would bring legitimacy to his claim in the eyes of people at large. Could Daenerys do this? Could she be willing to share the throne if she believes it? Perhaps. They've pushed the love story and the "together" motif quite forcefully this season for them. Maybe she would. 

 

13 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Also is a diary a legal document? Does the king have to sign the annulment? Tyrion could advise her to recognize Jon as a nephew but no a legitimate heir. That's what I would do. Find a legal basis to keep Jon a bastard and not harm Dany's claim. 

I don't think this will be an issue in the show. The High Septon is basically the Pope. If he annulled the marriage and granted a new one, I expect that most legal hurdles would have been removed. Whether his diary is evidence or not is up to the writers. Remember Ned thought that repetition of dark hair was evidence that Cersei was cheating and banging Jaime. 

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33 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

This second option has some support from the books. In them it is mentioned that Daenerys is the only one whose claim is beyond any doubt. The supporters of the supposed Aegon (not in the show) are desperate that she acknowledge him (he has the Golden Company supporting him) as only that would bring legitimacy to his claim in the eyes of people at large. Could Daenerys do this? Could she be willing to share the throne if she believes it? Perhaps. They've pushed the love story and the "together" motif quite forcefully this season for them. Maybe she would. 

 

I don't think this will be an issue in the show. The High Septon is basically the Pope. If he annulled the marriage and granted a new one, I expect that most legal hurdles would have been removed. Whether his diary is evidence or not is up to the writers. Remember Ned thought that repetition of dark hair was evidence that Cersei was cheating and banging Jaime. 

A diary would not be evidence in the real world. A document with the High Septon's seal with signatures of witnesses should be proof. I don't see how someone like Tyrion would accept a diary as proof. 

And Ned jumped to conclusions he would have never been able to prove that Robert's children weren't his. Robert claimed them. That's would be all that's needed. Even on his death bed Robert wanted Joffrey to be king and Ned changed his will. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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2 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

A diary would not be evidence in the real world. A document with the High Septon's seal with signatures of witnesses should be proof. I don't see how someone like Tyrion would accept a diary as proof. 

And Ned jumped to conclusions he would have never been able to prove that Robert's children weren't his. Robert claimed them. That's would be all that's needed. Even on his death bed Robert wanted Joffrey to be king and Ned changed his will. 

Ned was hardly the only one. Jon Arryn presumably had the same view. And Stannis was not too far off. Of course in the end it is irrelevant whether Tyrion accepts something as proof. What matters is whether Daenerys will accept it as proof. And we do not know what force Bran's words will have. If he can convince everyone of his miraculous knowledge (which should not be an issue). I suppose I am more optimistic about this. I don't think that what is being built by the show etc. as THE central love story of the entire saga will eventually devolve into another dynastic power struggle/ game of thrones etc., essentially justifying the worldview of characters like Cersei ans Tywin as the truth with respect to all issues. 

We have no knowledge of how official this diary was. The citadel had it. If they can verify its authenticity (presumably they'd know) then I don't see why it isn't evidence.

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On 8/31/2017 at 3:29 PM, btfu806 said:

I assume he will. Or just change how Bran acts. Or even something as simple as having Sam say it. Who knows, guess we will see!

Hi! Noob here. My question is this:  Does Bran feel anything at this time?  He sees things, but does he feel? When he sees, does he follow what he sees to conclusion?

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2 minutes ago, tushaara said:

Hi! Noob here. My question is this:  Does Bran feel anything at this time?  He sees things, but does he feel? When he sees, does he follow what he sees to conclusion?

I think it's up to him how far he sees something. He had seen Jon's birth scene before but only saw the "Aegon" bit when prompted by Sam to take a second look. I think he does feel but not in the same way as we ordinarily do. He does say that he is "sorry" that bad things happened to Sansa.

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16 minutes ago, Hajk1984 said:

Ned was hardly the only one. Jon Arryn presumably had the same view. And Stannis was not too far off. Of course in the end it is irrelevant whether Tyrion accepts something as proof. What matters is whether Daenerys will accept it as proof. And we do not know what force Bran's words will have. If he can convince everyone of his miraculous knowledge (which should not be an issue). I suppose I am more optimistic about this. I don't think that what is being built by the show etc. as THE central love story of the entire saga will eventually devolve into another dynastic power struggle/ game of thrones etc., essentially justifying the worldview of characters like Cersei ans Tywin as the truth with respect to all issues. 

We have no knowledge of how official this diary was. The citadel had it. If they can verify its authenticity (presumably they'd know) then I don't see why it isn't evidence.

With 6 episodes left I doubt they have time. The diary only shows intention of the Jon's parents and the Septon. It could easily be forged. If it was a longer season I could see Dany asking Tryion to prove Jon is still a bastard. 

Jon wouldn't fight Dany over the throne. Once Bran and Sam tells him he gets the thing he always wanted the identity of his mother. Plus he finds out Ned didn't betray Cat. Though others might want him to seek the throne which can add to the drama. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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Trial by fire, only way to find out, right? 

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22 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I'm not sure it matters to the Starks if Jon is legitimate or not. He will still be their brother. 

Half-brother, you mean. But he won't even be that. He'll be their cousin. 

He'll still be the guy they grew up with at Winterfell who had Ned Stark blood of one concentration or another. Which gives him one up on Theon, who according to Jon last episode is somehow part Stark, too. 

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22 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I think Bran wanted to tell Jon he wasn't Ned's Bastard but Lyanna's. 

Yes. Jon always wanted to know about his mother. Ned, who didn't know he'd soon be headless, promised to spill the beans when last they saw eachother. 

But he'd also be interested in knowing who his real father was, whether or not he was legitimate. 

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5 minutes ago, darmody said:

Half-brother, you mean. But he won't even be that. He'll be their cousin. 

He'll still be the guy they grew up with at Winterfell who had Ned Stark blood of one concentration or another. Which gives him one up on Theon, who according to Jon last episode is somehow part Stark, too. 

I was thinking adopted brother since Ned raised him as his son. But yes he is their cousin but isn't what he was for the majority of their lives. I think Jon considers Theon an adopted brother/Stark. 

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6 minutes ago, darmody said:

Yes. Jon always wanted to know about his mother. Ned, who didn't know he'd soon be headless, promised to spill the beans when last they saw eachother. 

But he'd also be interested in knowing who his real father was, whether or not he was legitimate. 

That can be his connection with Dany they both would want to know more about Rhaegar. 

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To maintain the 3ER contract you need to publish at least 10 major revelations a year. They don't want Howland Reed to beat them to the punch and get all the credit.

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9 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

With 6 episodes left I doubt they have time. The diary only shows intention of the Jon's parents and the Septon. It could easily be forged. If it was a longer season I could see Dany asking Tryion to prove Jon is still a bastard. 

They're not trying to convince a jury, just one woman. The diary is long, the whole thing certainly isn't forged. A quick examination would show the handwriting recording the annulment matches the handwriting recording the bowel movements. And as Sam said to Bran, why would they Septon lie? I find it tough to believe Dany will offer much resistance as far as accepting the claim. It's what happens next that will be the potentially contested part.

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