Hajk1984

"He has to know, we have to tell him..." WHY?

229 posts in this topic

45 minutes ago, Super Mario said:

They're not trying to convince a jury, just one woman. The diary is long, the whole thing certainly isn't forged. A quick examination would show the handwriting recording the annulment matches the handwriting recording the bowel movements. And as Sam said to Bran, why would they Septon lie? I find it tough to believe Dany will offer much resistance as far as accepting the claim. It's what happens next that will be the potentially contested part.

Yes I think this is true as well. After all the diary only proves that Rhaegar and Lyanna married. It doesn't prove that Jon resulted from that union. The second fact is known only through Bran's visions. This means that unless the whole world starts believing the 3-ER Jon would be in the same situation as fake "Aegon" in the books, i.e. only Daenerys acknowledging him would legitimize his claim in the eyes of people.  

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11 hours ago, tushaara said:

Hi! Noob here. My question is this:  Does Bran feel anything at this time?  He sees things, but does he feel? When he sees, does he follow what he sees to conclusion?

My opinion is that he feels in general (though that was kinda not conveyed well the first few episodes) but he isn't overtly passionate toward the Stark family. Because he isn't a Stark anymore, according to him at least. So it's the same as if you heard someone that you kinda know, their parent died. You would feel bad, but not overwhelmed for it. I think Isaac took it a little far the first couple of episodes but then got into the idea of things later on. He is a young kid without a ton of acting experience so it makes sense that it took him a bit.

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1 hour ago, Hajk1984 said:

Yes I think this is true as well. After all the diary only proves that Rhaegar and Lyanna married. It doesn't prove that Jon resulted from that union. The second fact is known only through Bran's visions. This means that unless the whole world starts believing the 3-ER Jon would be in the same situation as fake "Aegon" in the books, i.e. only Daenerys acknowledging him would legitimize his claim in the eyes of people.  

So, are you saying there is a chance that Jon's father is not Rhaegar? I don't know the books at all.

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2 hours ago, Hajk1984 said:

Yes I think this is true as well. After all the diary only proves that Rhaegar and Lyanna married. It doesn't prove that Jon resulted from that union. The second fact is known only through Bran's visions. This means that unless the whole world starts believing the 3-ER Jon would be in the same situation as fake "Aegon" in the books, i.e. only Daenerys acknowledging him would legitimize his claim in the eyes of people.  

Exactly. Its a huge leap of faith! We see the back flashes but the characters don't. Jon would do better to continue to be a bastard leading his region and not challenging a dragon queen. Jon will like a usurper using the "visions" of his younger brother who wants him to sit on the Iron Throne. It would like like the Starks are looking to elevate their house even more. Unless something else shows up Dany should be like nah Jon, you can have dragonass but you can't have the iron throne. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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Maybe this was mentioned in the pages of this thread, but maybe Bran didnt know at that time. Tho Bran can see all, he still need to know where to look, and when. With that being said, its not like he knew about this before meeting with Samwell. If so, thats kinda important to tell his siblings, over anything. Even the LF scandal. So since Samwell pointed to where he needed to look concerning Jon's history, this is totally new information which needs to get out.

The only other two people who saw something special in Jon, was Maester Aemon, and Mel. Tho Aemon was blind, he stated that he always saw the "light" in Jon. And Mel knew she was wrong about Stannis when she met Jon.

I love how the story kept that from our eyes nor made that a priority within this world for all of this time. I always thought Jon was cool and very lucky, and honest. Never would i have imagined that he would be an end game character of importance.

Edited by Charlie Hustle

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17 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

A diary would not be evidence in the real world. A document with the High Septon's seal with signatures of witnesses should be proof. I don't see how someone like Tyrion would accept a diary as proof. 

And Ned jumped to conclusions he would have never been able to prove that Robert's children weren't his. Robert claimed them. That's would be all that's needed. Even on his death bed Robert wanted Joffrey to be king and Ned changed his will. 

This isn't the real world.

If GRRM writes it that Tyrion and the rest of the population accepts it as proof, I dare say you will too. 

In the books and show, that book is proof, and Cersei validates it. 

Robert claims them as his kids, because he's got no reason not to. Would you tell your best friend on his death bed that he has no legal offspring? 

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6 hours ago, btfu806 said:

My opinion is that he feels in general (though that was kinda not conveyed well the first few episodes) but he isn't overtly passionate toward the Stark family. Because he isn't a Stark anymore, according to him at least. So it's the same as if you heard someone that you kinda know, their parent died. You would feel bad, but not overwhelmed for it. I think Isaac took it a little far the first couple of episodes but then got into the idea of things later on. He is a young kid without a ton of acting experience so it makes sense that it took him a bit.

There are directors on set. Actors aren't left to their own devices unless the director agrees with what they're doing. The directors get the final say on what the editors do with the footage they have, and what the audience sees, not the actors. This isn't Second City.

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4 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Exactly. Its a huge leap of faith! We see the back flashes but the characters don't. Jon would do better to continue to be a bastard leading his region and not challenging a dragon queen. Jon will like a usurper using the "visions" of his younger brother who wants him to sit on the Iron Throne. It would like like the Starks are looking to elevate their house even more. Unless something else shows up Dany should be like nah Jon, you can have dragonass but you can't have the iron throne. 

Dany has no claim. Jon's is the only legit claim. That's how Monarchical Succession works. Westeros isn't a Democracy, nor a Republic, nor a Meritocracy. There is no, "Who deserves it more". or "Who has wanted it longer..." none of that has any bearing whatsoever. 

The people of Westeros know of no other way of governing. Once it's proven Jon is the heir, Dany isn't going to argue, because it would make her stupid, and no better than Robert Bratheon who tried to have her assassinated. 

Jon's claim is the only one that matters, even if he doesn't want it. Abdicating would hurt House Targaryen and by extension, Dany. Neither Jon nor Dany would want that.

I don't understand how so many people think she's going to fight it. She's not Cersei. She's not Shakespeare's version of Richard III, killing her way into power. The Line of Succession is important to her. She was willing to support her insane brother until he threatened her life, and that took care of itself.

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Aye, Daenerys would never attempt to kill or usurp Jon once (and if) she finds out who he truly is. 
Not only because she loves him, or because he's the only family she has left (we know she hates being the last Targaryen), or because she might be pregnant with his child, but because her belief in the line of succession is one of the things that made her who she is. Ignoring it would not only be extremely out of character for her, but it would ruin everything she's fought and suffered for.

She might accept to rule if Jon backs down (which is likely), or she might accept to co-rule along side Jon if they end up marrying (which is also likely), but she would never attempt to steal the throne from Jon.

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4 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Aye, Daenerys would never attempt to kill or usurp Jon once (and if) she finds out who he truly is. 
Not only because she loves him, or because he's the only family she has left (we know she hates being the last Targaryen), or because she might be pregnant with his child, but because her belief in the line of succession is one of the things that made her who she is. Ignoring it would not only be extremely out of character for her, but it would ruin everything she's fought and suffered for.

She might accept to rule if Jon backs down (which is likely), or she might accept to co-rule along side Jon if they end up marrying (which is also likely), but she would never attempt to steal the throne from Jon.

:agree:

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5 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Aye, Daenerys would never attempt to kill or usurp Jon once (and if) she finds out who he truly is. 
Not only because she loves him, or because he's the only family she has left (we know she hates being the last Targaryen), or because she might be pregnant with his child, but because her belief in the line of succession is one of the things that made her who she is. Ignoring it would not only be extremely out of character for her, but it would ruin everything she's fought and suffered for.

She might accept to rule if Jon backs down (which is likely), or she might accept to co-rule along side Jon if they end up marrying (which is also likely), but she would never attempt to steal the throne from Jon.

Interesting. I can totally see her offering the throne to him and him saying no i already chose my ruler and its you and they end up rulling together. 

However, i don't feel 100% confident that she wouldn't think its unfair that she is the one that built the force to take back the throne for their family and he is the one that gets to rule because at the end of the day he is the man. 

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27 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

There are directors on set. Actors aren't left to their own devices unless the director agrees with what they're doing. The directors get the final say on what the editors do with the footage they have, and what the audience sees, not the actors. This isn't Second City.

Well if the actor isn't good and keeps doing the same thing over and over and over, you get what you get. Assuming also that the directors even really care that deeply about how he is conveying something. Directors could have just not cared about all those scenes for all I know.

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Daenerys's faith in the Targaryen Succession matters only if she immediately believes in the claim that Rhaegar married Lyanna and their trueborn son in Jon.

She might not want to believe it right away - not because she wants to fight Jon or anything, but because being the Last Targaryen and the Rightful Queen of the Iron Throne has been so central to her self-identity.

Plus, it's not at all clear that her advisors/supporters would calmly accept Jon being ahead of Daenerys in the Targaryen succession either, even if she does. The Dothraki and Unsullied won't care, they're loyal to Daenerys personally, not her House. It's an open question as to how Varys, Tyrion, and Jorah would react upon learning this information.

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7 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Well if the actor isn't good and keeps doing the same thing over and over and over, you get what you get. Assuming also that the directors even really care that deeply about how he is conveying something. Directors could have just not cared about all those scenes for all I know.

Maybe in community or High School theatre, but not professionally, there's too much money at stake. 

If the actor isn't good, they're not hired. If they become bad, they're replaced. This isn't cable access. This is the most successful, money generating show in TV history. If a director doesn't care in that level of the industry, they're fired.

Just because you don't like Isaac in the role, doesn't mean everyone shares your opinion. 

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8 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Maybe in community or High School theatre, but not professionally, there's too much money at stake. 

If the actor isn't good, they're not hired. If they become bad, they're replaced. This isn't cable access. This is the most successful, money generating show in TV history. If a director doesn't care in that level of the industry, they're fired.

Just because you don't like Isaac in the role, doesn't mean everyone shares your opinion. 

Lol, the kid was hired when he was 8! With virtually no experience. You can't say they knew 7 years from that point what kind of actor he would become as he matured and grew. It also appears that GOT has tried really hard not to replace any actors, which is a good thing!

I also never said I didn't like the kid or his acting. So no idea where you're getting that and never did I presume that everyone shared my opinion. All I said was that there might be an explanation for why he seemed one way in early episodes vs later episodes.

 

edit: the amount of years he worked from 8 to 7. Typo.

Edited by btfu806

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14 hours ago, jcmontea said:

However, i don't feel 100% confident that she wouldn't think its unfair that she is the one that built the force to take back the throne for their family and he is the one that gets to rule because at the end of the day he is the man. 

I'm not saying she would like it initally, but she would respect it. :)

I'm really looking forward to her reaction when she finds out about Jon/Aegon:
Daenerys hates the fact that she's the last Targaryen, that she cannot conceive children, and that her family will die with her. She always missed having a family and a home. Taking the Ironthrone and doing as much for the realm as she can before she dies and House Targaryen passes into history has become the goal for her, everything else is pointless from her point of view, because she can't have children, nor has a loving family to spend her time with. It's her only purpose at this stage, the only thing she lives for.

The revelation that Jon Snow, a man she loves and respects, is actually Aegon Targaryen, son of the brother she had always idolized, turns everything on it's head. Suddenly she's not the rightful heir to the Ironthrone, however, she's also no longer the last Targaryen, she has a family, one she actually love, and her house no longer dies with her. If we assume that she becomes pregnant, she will take this as fate: Jon isn't just someone she respects and loves, he's the one who broke Miri Maaz Duur's curse and who helps her continue the Targaryen dynasty. Suddenly, taking the Ironthrone is no longer her only purpose, she has other things to live for: Jon and their child.

This is personally what I believe her vision in the house of the undying represents:
Instead of taking the throne by force and ruling a burned out red keep for a short time before winter arrives, she will go north, find her family again (Jon+unborn child), and once she does, the iron throne will be of less importance to her. The baby dragon's screech symbolizes not only her baby dragons, but also the scream for help from another young dragon north of the wall: Jon Snow.

"A Targaryen, alone in the world, is a horrible thing."
The last two Targaryens are finally no longer alone in the world.
There's not a chance in hell that they'll end up fighting each other.


 

Edited by MinscS2

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2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

I'm not saying she would like it initally, but she would respect it. :)

I'm really looking forward to her reaction when she finds out about Jon/Aegon:
Daenerys hates the fact that she's the last Targaryen, that she cannot conceive children, and that her family will die with her. She always missed having a family and a home. Taking the Ironthrone and doing as much for the realm as she can before she dies and House Targaryen passes into history has become the goal for her, everything else is pointless from her point of view, because she can't have children, nor has a loving family to spend her time with. It's her only purpose at this stage, the only thing she lives for.

The revelation that Jon Snow, a man she loves and respects, is actually Aegon Targaryen, son of the brother she had always idolized, turns everything on it's head. Suddenly she's not the rightful heir to the Ironthrone, however, she's also no longer the last Targaryen, she has a family, one she actually love, and her house no longer dies with her. If we assume that she becomes pregnant, she will take this as fate: Jon isn't just someone she respects and loves, he's the one who broke Miri Maaz Duur's curse and who helps her continue the Targaryen dynasty. Suddenly, taking the Ironthrone is no longer her only purpose, she has other things to live for: Jon and their child.

This is personally what I believe her vision in the house of the undying represents:
Instead of taking the throne by force and ruling a burned out red keep for a short time before winter arrives, she will go north, find her family again (Jon+unborn child), and once she does, the iron throne will be of less importance to her. The baby dragon's screech symbolizes not only her baby dragons, but also the scream for help from another young dragon north of the wall: Jon Snow.

"A Targaryen, alone in the world, is a horrible thing."
The last two Targaryens are finally no longer alone in the world.
There's not a chance in hell that they'll end up fighting each other.


 

I agree 100%. 

The first desire she ever expresses is a desire to return home. Home means family. It clearly does not refer to a location. That i am convinced of especially after this year when she was back on Dragonstone the place she was born, whose entire architecture and layout is perfect for the Mother of Dragons and yet even there does not feel at home. Her arc ends with a family of her own.

Ironically, maybe the same family she would have had had their been no robert's rebellion which feels somewhat bittersweat to me. 

Edited by jcmontea

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1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

I agree 100%. 

The first desire she ever expresses is a desire to return home. Home means family. It clearly does not refer to a location. That i am convinced of especially after this year when she was back on Dragonstone the place she was born, whose entire architecture and layout is perfect for the Mother of Dragons and yet even there does not feel at home. Her arc ends with a family of her own.

Ironically, maybe the same family she would have had had their been no robert's rebellion which feels somewhat bittersweat to me. 

She would have been destined to marry Jon/Aegon anyway. But her spouse would have come from Martelli line not Stark line hadn't Rhaegar and Lyanna got together. 

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On 8/31/2017 at 2:48 PM, Hodor's Dragon said:

*Plus there are plenty of reasons to weigh on the other side, starting with the fact that folks are about to go to war to fight for their future, and should know what it is they are fighting for. 

They're fighting for survival. Sorting out the Iron Throne can wait.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness

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