Hajk1984

"He has to know, we have to tell him..." WHY?

229 posts in this topic

On 6.9.2017 at 10:39 PM, btfu806 said:

Lol, the kid was hired when he was 8! With virtually no experience. You can't say they knew 7 years from that point what kind of actor he would become as he matured and grew. It also appears that GOT has tried really hard not to replace any actors, which is a good thing!

I also never said I didn't like the kid or his acting. So no idea where you're getting that and never did I presume that everyone shared my opinion. All I said was that there might be an explanation for why he seemed one way in early episodes vs later episodes.

 

edit: the amount of years he worked from 8 to 7. Typo.

Well, your explanation is that he is a bad actor. You didn't really explain why the acting was bad other than that he seemed different in the first few episodes than in the later ones. You did not examine any possible reasons for the character's development from state A to state B. Imo, there is at least one good explanation for the way Bran was portrayed in season 7 and it is not very hard to figure out if you're willing to not assume bad writing, bad acting, bad directing, bad anything as a first explanation. 

Bran is the 3ER now and he is not really ready for it. Brandon Stark was being overwhelmed with his new powers to the point where a close friend of his who has been with him the last few years comes to the conclusion that Bran died in that cave (Meera). He's shown to have little control over what he sees and what he doesn't see and he doesn't really think about the consequences when he tells others what he sees in the beginning. If he had, he wouldn't really have explained it to Sansa by reminding her of the night she was raped the first time or shown Littlefinger that he has to be very wary of him. He's in better control when we see him talking with Sam and he also seems to have unburied something of the person who he used to be. At the trial, we see him using his powers effectively and to the advantage of his family. I see some understandable character development here that is well reflected in the acting.

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43 minutes ago, Zapho said:

Well, your explanation is that he is a bad actor. You didn't really explain why the acting was bad other than that he seemed different in the first few episodes than in the later ones. You did not examine any possible reasons for the character's development from state A to state B. Imo, there is at least one good explanation for the way Bran was portrayed in season 7 and it is not very hard to figure out if you're willing to not assume bad writing, bad acting, bad directing, bad anything as a first explanation. 

Bran is the 3ER now and he is not really ready for it. Brandon Stark was being overwhelmed with his new powers to the point where a close friend of his who has been with him the last few years comes to the conclusion that Bran died in that cave (Meera). He's shown to have little control over what he sees and what he doesn't see and he doesn't really think about the consequences when he tells others what he sees in the beginning. If he had, he wouldn't really have explained it to Sansa by reminding her of the night she was raped the first time or shown Littlefinger that he has to be very wary of him. He's in better control when we see him talking with Sam and he also seems to have unburied something of the person who he used to be. At the trial, we see him using his powers effectively and to the advantage of his family. I see some understandable character development here that is well reflected in the acting.

Alright, tell me about the scenes that showed the transition from being overwhelmed as the 3ER to now being able to control it.

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3 hours ago, btfu806 said:

Alright, tell me about the scenes that showed the transition from being overwhelmed as the 3ER to now being able to control it.

There weren't. It's a failing of the show, but getting used to/gaining better control over it seems a viable explanation for the shift in Bran's demeanor.

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45 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

There weren't. It's a failing of the show, but getting used to/gaining better control over it seems a viable explanation for the shift in Bran's demeanor.

I agree it is but my point I was trying to make was that the show is doing a poor job of explaining things and what not. But I agree with you it is a viable option but we shouldn't have to assume. 

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25 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I agree it is but my point I was trying to make was that the show is doing a poor job of explaining things and what not. But I agree with you it is a viable option but we shouldn't have to assume. 

Well, yeah, the show's doing a shit job on pretty much everything except visual spectacle these days.

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5 hours ago, btfu806 said:

I agree it is but my point I was trying to make was that the show is doing a poor job of explaining things and what not. But I agree with you it is a viable option but we shouldn't have to assume. 

I'm fearing that in the end, we're going to be left assuming a good deal!

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1 hour ago, tushaara said:

I'm fearing that in the end, we're going to be left assuming a good deal!

I fear you are going to be correct

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11 hours ago, tushaara said:

I'm fearing that in the end, we're going to be left assuming a good deal!

Would you rather have it all spelled out to you in great detail and spend hours watching Bran's development on the TV show? Seriously? I wouldn't because it would be boring and not good TV. 

It was GRRM's decision to allow HBO to make the show and he was (and probably still is) contributing. He's still listed as a co-executive producer in the credits of the very last episode. If you're a fan you ought to respect his decision. You don't have to like it and you don't have to like what they do with the material of the books you love but it was the author's decision to help creating a TV show out of it. He wouldn't have done it if he hadn't been okay with the consequences of transfering the story to another medium with different ways of showing things. 

Bran's transition will probably have much more room in the remaining books and that's fine. I'm looking forward to reading it. But it's the sort of thing a TV show can't show in great detail. Not unless it's a very different sort of show. They have to cut out some material, fuse plot lines together and rely for things like that on visual clues. And these clues are there if you are seeing them for what they are. The first visions Bran had as the 3ER were a confusing tumble of rushed images. As the show goes on, Bran's visions become clearer, more focused and he gets answers out of them. Faster and more precise answers. It's not the focus of the show but it is not completely left out or portrayed in a way that you have to be a super genius to understand what's happening. Yes, you don't get it in great detail. But that's not necessarily a bad thing imo. The clues are precise and vivid enough to allow your imagination to imagine and your reason to reason. They have spent very few scenes on showing us what Bran is capable of now, what his limitations are and what it means for him as a person, what he is going through. That's not bad for a TV show. It's actually really good. We are not used to seeing art on the telly and this is art. Which seems to confuse people.

If watching the TV-version pains you and spoils the books for you then you ought to stop watching the show. But you do watch it and spend time complaining about it. I don't understand why. What's the point? There certainly are things they could have done better but I don't get it why people keep whingeing about the show because it's a show and not a book. That's bad criticism and it's not very interesting to read. 

You might point out that this is not what you said and you would be right because you did not say that. Not explicitly. I found this forum a couple of weeks ago and I read many posts here and this sort of lousy criticism keeps coming up. It destroys discussions about some of the finer aspects of the plot, the characters and the story arch. About symbolism and yes also about the differences between show and TV. Half the posts on this forum (which I thought was supposed to be a fan forum) aren't worth reading because the author was so intent to hate what they saw they completely missed the point. There can only be one reason for this curious phenomenon and it is that you care about it. If you didn't you'd switch channels or watch it like the other garbage on TV - with only mild curiosity bordering on disinterest. You are a fan. A disappointed one. You've been waiting for years for the books to be finished and GRRM spent his valuable time selling it out. Spoiling it for you. Your favorite character isn't even there, the part you really liked is skimmed over, it's different, not the same, butchered, rotten, vile and ... visual. 

And you can't even sue him. :angry2:

;)

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7 minutes ago, Zapho said:

Would you rather have it all spelled out to you in great detail and spend hours watching Bran's development on the TV show? Seriously? I wouldn't because it would be boring and not good TV. 

It was GRRM's decision to allow HBO to make the show and he was (and probably still is) contributing. He's still listed as a co-executive producer in the credits of the very last episode. If you're a fan you ought to respect his decision. You don't have to like it and you don't have to like what they do with the material of the books you love but it was the author's decision to help creating a TV show out of it. He wouldn't have done it if he hadn't been okay with the consequences of transfering the story to another medium with different ways of showing things. 

Bran's transition will probably have much more room in the remaining books and that's fine. I'm looking forward to reading it. But it's the sort of thing a TV show can't show in great detail. Not unless it's a very different sort of show. They have to cut out some material, fuse plot lines together and rely for things like that on visual clues. And these clues are there if you are seeing them for what they are. The first visions Bran had as the 3ER were a confusing tumble of rushed images. As the show goes on, Bran's visions become clearer, more focused and he gets answers out of them. Faster and more precise answers. It's not the focus of the show but it is not completely left out or portrayed in a way that you have to be a super genius to understand what's happening. Yes, you don't get it in great detail. But that's not necessarily a bad thing imo. The clues are precise and vivid enough to allow your imagination to imagine and your reason to reason. They have spent very few scenes on showing us what Bran is capable of now, what his limitations are and what it means for him as a person, what he is going through. That's not bad for a TV show. It's actually really good. We are not used to seeing art on the telly and this is art. Which seems to confuse people.

If watching the TV-version pains you and spoils the books for you then you ought to stop watching the show. But you do watch it and spend time complaining about it. I don't understand why. What's the point? There certainly are things they could have done better but I don't get it why people keep whingeing about the show because it's a show and not a book. That's bad criticism and it's not very interesting to read. 

You might point out that this is not what you said and you would be right because you did not say that. Not explicitly. I found this forum a couple of weeks ago and I read many posts here and this sort of lousy criticism keeps coming up. It destroys discussions about some of the finer aspects of the plot, the characters and the story arch. About symbolism and yes also about the differences between show and TV. Half the posts on this forum (which I thought was supposed to be a fan forum) aren't worth reading because the author was so intent to hate what they saw they completely missed the point. There can only be one reason for this curious phenomenon and it is that you care about it. If you didn't you'd switch channels or watch it like the other garbage on TV - with only mild curiosity bordering on disinterest. You are a fan. A disappointed one. You've been waiting for years for the books to be finished and GRRM spent his valuable time selling it out. Spoiling it for you. Your favorite character isn't even there, the part you really liked is skimmed over, it's different, not the same, butchered, rotten, vile and ... visual. 

And you can't even sue him. :angry2:

;)

You're probably about to get hounded on by a lot of angry people, as any defence of the TV show doesn't seem to be allowed on this forum, but you're one hundred percent right.

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17 minutes ago, Zapho said:

[text]

Great post.
The show deserves some criticism because it's far from flawless and on occasion even a little stupid, but the amount of whine, hate and complaints about it on this forum is ludicrous at times. I'm also a new member, and since this is a fan-forum with dedicated members (supposedly), I expected a lot of interesting theories, good analyses, character breakdowns, etc.
What I didn't expect was the amount of trashposts I would have to wade trough where author's only intention is to trashtalk either the show or characters in it. I've stopped reading the posts made by some members altogether, because they simply write the same crap over and over, regardless of what the actual topic is.

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2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Great post.
The show deserves some criticism because it's far from flawless and on occasion even a little stupid, but the amount of whine, hate and complaints about it on this forum is ludicrous at times. I'm also a new member, and since this is a fan-forum with dedicated members (supposedly), I expected a lot of interesting theories, good analyses, character breakdowns, etc.
What I didn't expect was the amount of trashposts I would have to wade trough where author's only intention is to trashtalk either the show or characters in it. I've stopped reading the posts made by some members altogether, because they simply write the same crap over and over, regardless of what the actual topic is.

My unpopular opinion is the show is awesome. Is it as good as the books? Def not. Is it perfect? Def not. Are there some things i don't like or wish were different? Yup. But its really unlike anything else on TV  and two weeks after the season finishsed i am wasting a bunch of time talking about it on forums so its clearly speaking to me on a profund level. Also I think it is very analyzable between the dialogue, music and costumes. 

If it wasn't for the show I never would have even discovered the books. After season 2 i just had to know what happened with Dany picked up the books and.... was not happy when i realized where it ended but still. 

Regarding Bran my crackpot/ tinfoil theory is that he is going to warg viserion away from the Night King and decide he would rather live as a Dragon after the NK is defeated than go back to being a cripple with no purpose now that the NK is gone. 

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As far as showing Bran's gaining control over his powers ... when he looked to see whether or not Sam was right about Rhaegar and Lyanna being married, he didn't need physical contact with or proximity to a weirwood, the way he did earlier in the season/in previous seasons.

Also, to be fair, since Meera left, there wasn't really anyone in Winterfell who he could talk to about it/understand what he was talking about even a little.

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2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

My unpopular opinion is the show is awesome. Is it as good as the books? Def not. Is it perfect? Def not. Are there some things i don't like or wish were different? Yup. But its really unlike anything else on TV  and two weeks after the season finishsed i am wasting a bunch of time talking about it on forums so its clearly speaking to me on a profund level. Also I think it is very analyzable between the dialogue, music and costumes. 

If it wasn't for the show I never would have even discovered the books. After season 2 i just had to know what happened with Dany picked up the books and.... was not happy when i realized where it ended but still. 

I agree. The show is really good. GRRM started writing the books because what he had in mind couldn't be adapted for television. And although the show is by no means perfect, it's done a pretty good job adapting such a complex story with so many plots happening simultaneously. And as it happens, I had started reading the books after watching season 2 as well. 

 

2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Regarding Bran my crackpot/ tinfoil theory is that he is going to warg viserion away from the Night King and decide he would rather live as a Dragon after the NK is defeated than go back to being a cripple with no purpose now that the NK is gone. 

I think bran has a really important role to play. He was the first POV in the first book. I think he's going to remain the 3ER and make sure the NK doesn't rise again. Maybe find someone else to pass the torch to.

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On 8/31/2017 at 7:54 PM, Tucu said:

Not sure if this was in the show, but Aemon (and Rhaegar) believed that The Prince That Was Promised was a Targaryan from Aerys and Rhaella line. So this could be important in the fight against the WW.

It doesn't explain why Jon has to know the truth... because Jon doesn't even know that shit about the Prince That Was Promised ... but telling Jon would change absolutely nothing from what we have seen so far... he knows already that he has to lead the fight against the WW without even being concerned about who he really is. Even if he were Jon Lannister he would still want to fight the WW and give his life... don't know ...

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23 minutes ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

It doesn't explain why Jon has to know the truth... because Jon doesn't even know that shit about the Prince That Was Promised ... but telling Jon would change absolutely nothing from what we have seen so far... he knows already that he has to lead the fight against the WW without even being concerned about who he really is. Even if he were Jon Lannister he would still want to fight the WW and give his life... don't know ...

I don't remember in the show, but I think Aemon mentioned TPTWP to Jon. Also, telling him about his heritage might help Jon understand the probable reason why he was brought back to life. 

And Bran's reasoning to tell him was probably to let him know that he is the Targaryen heir to the IT. What Jon chooses to do with that information is upto Jon.

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24 minutes ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said:

It doesn't explain why Jon has to know the truth... because Jon doesn't even know that shit about the Prince That Was Promised ... but telling Jon would change absolutely nothing from what we have seen so far... he knows already that he has to lead the fight against the WW without even being concerned about who he really is. Even if he were Jon Lannister he would still want to fight the WW and give his life... don't know ...

I agree. I think what's left of Bran in the 3eyed Raven wants to tell Jon because Jon is his family. He knows Jon wanted to know who his mother was. Sam also knows that Jon hated being a bastard. Jon being a legitimate Targaryen or Stark bastard makes no difference in the Great War. He is going to be fighting one way or the other. 

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't remember in the show, but I think Aemon mentioned TPTWP to Jon. Also, telling him about his heritage might help Jon understand the probable reason why he was brought back to life. 

And Bran's reasoning to tell him was probably to let him know that he is the Targaryen heir to the IT. What Jon chooses to do with that information is upto Jon.

 

45 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I agree. I think what's left of Bran in the 3eyed Raven wants to tell Jon because Jon is his family. He knows Jon wanted to know who his mother was. Sam also knows that Jon hated being a bastard. Jon being a legitimate Targaryen or Stark bastard makes no difference in the Great War. He is going to be fighting one way or the other. 

Wanting Jon to know about his mother is one possible factor.

However, I think telling Jon about his parentage also means telling Jon that he can probably ride a dragon. And that's going to be much more important for the War for the Dawn than telling Jon that he's the true heir to the Iron Throne.

Remember, Bran wanted to tell Jon about his parentage - "the truth about himself" - before he learned that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. And that means Jon being the true heir to the Iron Throne is not the truth about Jon that Bran wanted Jon to know.

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29 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

 

Wanting Jon to know about his mother is one possible factor.

However, I think telling Jon about his parentage also means telling Jon that he can probably ride a dragon. And that's going to be much more important for the War for the Dawn than telling Jon that he's the true heir to the Iron Throne.

Remember, Bran wanted to tell Jon about his parentage - "the truth about himself" - before he learned that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. And that means Jon being the true heir to the Iron Throne is not the truth about Jon that Bran wanted Jon to know.

In the books, non targaryens can also ride dragons. But for the show, yes that could be another reason. And we'll probably see Jon ride a dragon in the show and in the books.

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32 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

 

Wanting Jon to know about his mother is one possible factor.

However, I think telling Jon about his parentage also means telling Jon that he can probably ride a dragon. And that's going to be much more important for the War for the Dawn than telling Jon that he's the true heir to the Iron Throne.

Remember, Bran wanted to tell Jon about his parentage - "the truth about himself" - before he learned that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. And that means Jon being the true heir to the Iron Throne is not the truth about Jon that Bran wanted Jon to know.

If its to tell him he can ride a dragon that makes sense but he's already bonding with Dragon.  Bran thought Jon was a Sand that's why I was thinking he just wants him to know Lyanna is his mother. Maybe its both.

Bran: Remember all that whining you did about not having a mother. Well you do. Its Lyanna Stark and you can ride a dragon because you are Targaryen. Have a nice identity crisis. Jon: what the f!

It's Sam who cares about the marriage. 

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25 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Bran thought Jon was a Sand that's why I was thinking he just wants him to know Lyanna is his mother.

Aye that is a good point. Bran wanted to tell Jon even before he learned from Sam that Jon was a legitimate Targaryen and not just a Sand.
He probably just want to tell Jon about his true parentage because he knows it's something Jon has wanted to know his entire life, and with the death of Ned, Bran is the only one who can tell him the truth.

Bran probably had no ulterior motive in regards to Jon being a "real" Targaryen and heir to the throne, since that was unknown even to him until Sam told him in episode 7. I doubt he had any plans on sowing discontent between Jon and Daenerys, because if Jon was a bastard/Sand as Bran first thought, then Dany would be ahead of Jon in the line of succession anyway.

 

Edited by MinscS2

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