Ser Petyr Parker

Is Jon and Dany's blood relationship supposed to be a problem?

318 posts in this topic

A lot of people seem really hung up on it, but I'm not sure we're supposed to be. I don't get the impression that we're supposed to be thinking "Uh-oh! If only they knew!" At least not when it comes to incest.

Westeros is full of people marrying their cousins, and Jon and Dany's are as related/unrelated as first cousins, i.e. 25%.  Edit: this part was obviously wrong.

And why should we care? Incest is a problem for two reasons: Emotionally, because people who grow up together tend not to become sexually attracted to one another, and practically, because inbreeding is risky. But Jon and Dany didn't grow up together, and the risks of inbreeding are overblown.

So the main question is whether or not, in the show, the incestuous relationship is supposed to be a problem. The side questions that will no doubt be covered is how much of a problem people think it is anyway.

Edited by Ser Petyr Parker
Correction

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I agree that, in-story, its not a big deal. Westerosi are used to seeing Targaryens marry among themselves. In fact, the fact that they were attracted to each other before even knowing who they were will support the view that inbreeding is a natural and acceptable thing among Targs.

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Incest only really becomes a problem if they are having children. (considering how often they mentioned she couldn't, that usually means she'll have one). 
Since Targs are pretty inbred, they are even more related than a normal Aunt/Nephew. 

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People keep using this argument "oh Targaryens always practiced incest" conveniently forgetting that Jon, while half Targ by blood was not RAISED a Targ. He was raised a Stark, or at least in the ways of the Starks. Show wise, every instance of incest we've seen has been terrible (Jaime/Cersei, Craster, etc). Jon, if they write him at all like even show!Jon which is not a guarantee considering how they butchered him this season, is not going to just go "oh I'm a Targ? Cool, let me continue to fuck my aunt even though it goes against everything I was raised to believe".

But we're talking D&D here so it's just as likely he'll shrug it off and go "eh, she's hot so whatever". :rolleyes:

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7 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

A lot of people seem really hung up on it, but I'm not sure we're supposed to be. I don't get the impression that we're supposed to be thinking "Uh-oh! If only they knew!" At least not when it comes to incest.

Westeros is full of people marrying their cousins, and Jon and Dany's are as related/unrelated as first cousins, i.e. 25%.

And why should we care? Incest is a problem for two reasons: Emotionally, because people who grow up together tend not to become sexually attracted to one another, and practically, because inbreeding is risky. But Jon and Dany didn't grow up together, and the risks of inbreeding are overblown.

So the main question is whether or not, in the show, the incestuous relationship is supposed to be a problem. The side questions that will no doubt be covered is how much of a problem people think it is anyway.

they are more related than two random first cousins. They are aunt and nephew and there is a whole history of inbreeding in their Targ ancestors that have in common that even have brother\sister inbreeding.

it is supposed to be a problem because that's the reason why their sex scene was juxtaposed with the revelation of his father as her brother and "we have to tell Jon".

what will they decide, I don't know. But it will cause problems. Not to mention that if he is the rightful heir that means that Daenerys' goal of her life will be threatened (even marrying him would cause her to be a consourt probably). Not to mention that Jon was raised as a Northener (the are not obsessed in inreeding to mantain their line pure) so he will not fully embrace his Targ side and forget his origins. I don't know about Dany. She will likely be more concerned about her goal as being Queen, but let's not forget that she didn't like the idea of marrying Viserys.

The showrunners teased there will be trouble in the Inside the Episode of season 7 episode 7.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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20 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

The showrunners teased there will be trouble in the Inside the Episode of season 7 episode 7.

They also strongly hinted in the Inside the Episode segment for 6x10 that Jon and Sansa would have a big conflict in Season 7. Didn't happen.

There will be some minor conflict, as there was with Jon and Sansa in Season 7, but it will be resolved fairly quickly: ultimately, they're in love. And with Dany likely getting knocked up as many have predicted she will, Jon's going to stand by her and, I'm guessing, marry her--Jon having strong feelings about fathering bastards and all--no matter what.

Edited by Newstar

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Yes, it is a problem, as shown by the way the love scene juxtaposed with Bran and Sam.

Dany is probably unworried about incest, but Jon has been brought up to regard it as an abomination.  And worse, she now has a rival for the Iron Throne.

They're also much more closely related than the average aunt and nephew, as Aerys and Rhaella were also brother and sister.

 

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Yes, it is a problem, as shown by the way the love scene juxtaposed with Bran and Sam.

Dany is probably unworried about incest, but Jon has been brought up to regard it as an abomination.  And worse, she now has a rival for the Iron Throne.

They're also much more closely related than the average aunt and nephew, as Aerys and Rhaella were also brother and sister.

 

Yep, exactly.

Just as we're seeing these two people come together, we're hearing the information that will inevitably if not tear them apart, at least cause real problems in their relationship, she's his aunt.:ack:

 

And the reactions of the cast:

 

 

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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Are people still actually asking if incestuous relationships will lead to problems? GRRM has said many times the problems it leads to for his characters. Even D&D said so in the final outside the episode. Additionally, having Bran talk over their horrid love scene with Tyrion looking on pondering the ramifications...it was all meant to foreshadow it will end badly.

It doesn't matter that past Targaryens have had relationships with each other. Jon has been raised as a Stark and would likely have a hard time with it.

 

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Jon has been raised with the taboo against incest, so I predict he'll struggle with it, but he also hasn't been raised around Dany or to think of her as a relative, and just knowing it intellectually is different from having a relationship with someone he's thought of as family his whole life, and he's already formed this affectionate partnership with her by the time they theoretically find out. So who knows.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness

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37 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

Are people still actually asking if incestuous relationships will lead to problems? GRRM has said many times the problems it leads to for his characters. Even D&D said so in the final outside the episode. Additionally, having Bran talk over their horrid love scene with Tyrion looking on pondering the ramifications...it was all meant to foreshadow it will end badly.

It doesn't matter that past Targaryens have had relationships with each other. Jon has been raised as a Stark and would likely have a hard time with it.

 

This is GRRM:

 "Avoid incest at all costs. I may write about incest but I do not endorse it, let us make that perfectly clear."

 

Yes, we see the Targ boat and Bran saying he has to tell Jon...

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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The show doesn't seem to make a big deal out of the whole thing - they didn't hammer home the fact that Dany and Jon are aunt and nephew. What they did do there is to establish that 'Aegon Targaryen' has a better claim than Daenerys. That's the tension they are building up, especially since they make such a big deal out of Jon bending the knee to Dany - if he has the better claim (and people suddenly give a damn about blood claims which they usually don't do in the show) then this is going to be a problem for their relationship, not that they are aunt and nephew and can't be together because of that.

The show isn't well-written and pretty shitty at this point but it is not a complete soap opera. And this whole 'incest is forbidden' plot is much more juicier if you have siblings doing it rather than aunts and nephews. Not to mention that you need time to make the whole moral conflict thing work - romance and passion fighting against moralistic and societal boundaries.

But the latter simply don't exist in this world. Targaryen incest is perfectly fine, and since Jon pretty much adores and worships Daenerys already he is not going to push her away just because she is his aunt. Why should he?

And as to 'Aegon's claim' - I think that's just another setup to create false tension - just like with the 'Arya-Sansa conflict' this season. It is going to lead nowhere because it is obvious that the two lovers will figure that out all by themselves. The opinion of other people simply do not matter. Nobody is going to tell the dragons what to do.

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47 minutes ago, SeanF said:

They're also much more closely related than the average aunt and nephew, as Aerys and Rhaella were also brother and sister.

Yes, they share 44-47% of their DNA, they are closer to being full siblings (50%) than to being aunt/nephew. :P

It's a problem but I'm sure they'll get over it eventually, they're together for a reason. 

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The show seems to be playing it as a bit of an Oedipus Rex reveal, although with only six episodes left, I think it will probably only be important in the first few episodes, and then promptly shoved aside for some more CGI.

I've seen a lot of pro-incest ASOIAF fans out there, but the thing about incest in this series is that it almost always leads to some sort of disaster. The only pair that was spared was Jaehaerys and Alysanne, and even so it was their grandchildren that enabled The Dance of the Dragons, initiating the downfall of their House. We know that our beloved Egg eventually came to view incest as a harbinger of doom, and his son Jaehaerys defying him, both in his own marriage and in his children's, is what led to the rise of Mad King Aerys. 

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It was a bizarre tonal call on an already tone-deaf show.

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If you read how the author uses incest in any of his stories, not just ASOIAF, you will see that every single time it is used to show negative consequences and the downfall of whatever dynasty. Not all of his older stories have incest, but in the ones that do, the message is the same (if it is not outright rejected before it begins).

I just recently finished a GRRM story I hadn't read before and he managed to slip in the incest angle and associated it with a mental disorder in regards to the character. 

That is how the author is using the incest angle. It is not puppy love, and the only real world Royal links he makes are to the corruption of the blood and power hungry control. Valyrian men needed to covet and control the dragon hatching and riding blood that their women carry. 

What the show is showing is #1 part of a plot rearrangement from other story parts (as very often done), #2 to show shocking things that create buzz and up the ratings.  The showrunners have already set it up as a downfall of sorts, especially when you realize that Bran's urgency to tell Jon and the fall of the wall all happening together show this concept. 

I also find it funny that when the incest was between Cersei and Jaime it was icky gross, but now that it is between two cutsie people it is fine, heavily shipped even. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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One would think that people will learn after D&D and the cast hyping faux tension with Jon vs. Sansa conflict, Arya vs. Sansa conflict, and the whole Dany the Mad Queen BSing.

There will be faux tension for an episode or two and then they will realize that their relationship matters to them more than anything else.

They will obviously also have a baby and they will marry. Like, why do you guys think that LF brought it up? So Sansa can play at being a political genius and come up with it when they talk claims. And of course Dany is not truly barren as was quite heavily implied this season, and there's no way in hell they will let their child to be a bastard, anyway.

Yes, you can vomit if you feel like it, but it's obvious that's what's going to happen.

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7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

I also find it funny that when the incest was between Cersei and Jaime it was icky gross, but now that it is between two cutsie people it is fine, heavily shipped even. 

Probably has more to do with the characters than simply the incest, not to mention the gravity of the incest itself.
Add the fact that some of the times Jamie and Cersei had sex, the sex was really f*cked up (like when they did it next to Joffreys corpse)

People generally don't like Cersei, and neither did they like Jamie in the earlier seasons, before his redemption arc.
People like Jon and Daenerys though, and alot of people liked their on screen chemistry. People have been shipping them since before it was revealed that they where related.

As for the gravity of the actual incest, it's quite reasonable to consider Jamie and Cerseis relationship to be way worse (and "icky") than Jon and Danys:
Jamie and Cersei are twins (immediate family members), who know that they are twins.
Jon and Dany are aunt/nephew (non-immediate family members), who dont know that they are related - and we still don't know how they will react once they find out.
It's amazing how many that can't spot the difference between the two couples.

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3 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Probably has more to do with the characters than simply the incest, not to mention the gravity of the incest itself.
Add the fact that some of the times Jamie and Cersei had sex, the sex was really f*cked up (like when they did it next to Joffreys corpse)

People generally don't like Cersei, and neither did they like Jamie in the earlier seasons, before his redemption arc.
People like Jon and Daenerys though, and alot of people liked their on screen chemistry. People have been shipping them since before it was revealed that they where related.

As for the gravity of the actual incest, it's quite reasonable to consider Jamie and Cerseis relationship to be way worse (and "icky") than Jon and Danys:
Jamie and Cersei are twins (immediate family members), who know that they are twins.
Jon and Dany are aunt/nephew (non-immediate family members), who dont know that they are related - and we still don't know how they will react once they find out.
It's amazing how many that can't spot the difference between the two couples.

Agreed. It is a double standard. It's ok as long as it's pretty. 

Especially since there are posters in this thread that see no problem with Cersei and thinks she loves Jaime... which we know is not the case. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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