Ser Petyr Parker

Is Jon and Dany's blood relationship supposed to be a problem?

364 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, KingMudd said:

Out of interest who are the uncles and nieces that have been married? I have never heard that before.

That we know of, Edric and Serena Stark, as well as Jonnel and Sansa Stark. However, the Stark family is thousands and thousands of years old and we only know their very recent family tree. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

No, that's not corret, this couldn't be more wrong. While the Valyrians practiced incest with their closest relatives, Westeros did it too, even if with less frequency. The honorable House Stark married uncles and nices before, and they did it twice. That's not to say, cousing marriages has always been fairly popular.

Westeros is not based on our modern times, they don't share our view. People from the middle ages always saw incest with different eyes, and pretty much everything else too.

Clearly, in this context (and in many places even today), the term "incest" is limited to brother/sister or parent/child (or presumably grandparent/grandchild). SeanF obviously meant this definition of incest. So a marriage of cousins or uncle to niece would NOT be considered incest. Outside of the Targs (who had their own rules), the rest of Westeros spoke against incest quite clearly -- but had this more narrow definition. So the rest of Westeros, including the North, considered incest to be an abomination. They just did not consider cousin or avuncular marriages to be incest. So SeanF was NOT wrong.

1 hour ago, KingMudd said:

Out of interest who are the uncles and nieces that have been married? I have never heard that before.

I think Jon should find any incest unacceptable as it is a pretty big no no in the old gods faith, right up there with violating guest rights. Look at how he reacts to Craster and how it lowers his opinion of Jeor Mormont a bit when he finds out the watch knows what Craster was up to.

Look up the Stark Family Tree online and you will find uncle/niece (actually half-uncle/half-niece) marriages up the tree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, it seems to be the lack of sisters many Targaryens had at that time. Daeron II had only sons, and of those sons only Maekar and Rhaegel had daughters. Rhaegel's twins Aelor and Aelora married each other and their younger sister eventually ended up with her cousin Aerion. Maekar had two daughters - Daella and Rhae - and Daella was originally betrothed to her younger brother Egg. That betrothal was dissolved but both Daella and Rhae eventually married and had children. The age gap between Aerion and his younger sisters could explain why they did not end up with him. Maekar's eldest son Daeron was married to his cousin Valarr's widow Kiera of Tyrosh which seems to have been a political match, most likely connected to the whole Blackfyre thing.

The first Targaryen to try to arrange political marriages with the really great houses was Aegon V. And he failed at that.

Thanks for that explanation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany tells us that chances had been pretty good that she would have been married to Prince Aegon rather than to Viserys had the boy lived (and there been no Rebellion) since they were closer in age than she and Viserys (who could then have married Rhaenys, perhaps).

A little off-topic, but...

 

Viserys was a child when the rebellion happened, it would take years before he came of age and be formally betrothed to someone(Rhaegar himself was betrothed at 19-20), one can think that by the time he came of age, Aerys would no longer be on the throne. Which means that Rhaegar likely would be the one in power(likely, not sure).

 

Do you think Rhaegar would have betrothed his daughter to Viserys? It got me curious, because we don't know Rhaegar's views on incest, nor what he thought of Viserys to the point he would want to betroth his daughter to him.

 

I'm inclined to think he would not, since Aerys and Rhaella's marriage was something Rhaegar probably wanted to forget, but what you think?

Edited by theMADdestScientist_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Faint said:

That we know of, Edric and Serena Stark, as well as Jonnel and Sansa Stark. However, the Stark family is thousands and thousands of years old and we only know their very recent family tree. 

 

4 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Look up the Stark Family Tree online and you will find uncle/niece (actually half-uncle/half-niece) marriages up the tree.

 Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, KingMudd said:

Out of interest who are the uncles and nieces that have been married? I have never heard that before.

I think Jon should find any incest unacceptable as it is a pretty big no no in the old gods faith, right up there with violating guest rights. Look at how he reacts to Craster and how it lowers his opinion of Jeor Mormont a bit when he finds out the watch knows what Craster was up to.

Yeah, Jon doesn't approve of incest. However, the definition of incest he knows is Siblings and Parent/Child. Presumably Grandparent/Grandchild also counts as incest, but that's not explicitly stated.

First cousins are fine to marry and do so often - anything even slightly more distant than first cousins is downright common.

Aunt/Nephew and Uncle/Niece, are perfectly fine, although uncommon, as such marriages are usually only arranged to secure, protect, and control the succession - which is exactly what would be happening with Daenerys and Jon. Although the fact that they're apparently in love/lust with one another doesn't hurt.

 

There have also been Targaryen Uncle/Niece love matches - Daemon and Rhaenyra, circa the Dance, were not an arrange married.

 

As far as Daenerys is concerned, if/when she comes around to believing that Jon is actually Rhaegar's, it just makes him even more important to her. She grew up expecting to marry her brother Viserys, who was an abusive asshat to her - Jon is also a massive improvement as a prospective husband relative to Viserys. Actually, the biggest problem from Daenerys's perspective to marrying Jon when she believes that Jon is Rhaegar's is that Daenerys thinks she's barren and can't have human children - Jon (and the children he can presumably father) would then represent the means of perpetuating House Targaryen; Daenerys thinks she can't have human children, but Jon being Rhaegar's means that she can have nieces and nephews and more family through him - but only if he has children with someone else. Of course, Daenerys will likely realize that she's pregnant by Jon before she pushes him into marrying someone else to perpetuate House Targaryen; or she realizes she's preggers after, and pushes polygamy on Jon.

 

Craster is fathering children on his daughters, and then fathering more children on any resultant Daughter/Granddaughters, and so on. That's incest by everyone's definition - hell, I'm pretty sure even the Targaryens and Valyrians wouldn't approve of what Craster's doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Viserys was a child when the rebellion happened, it would take years before he came of age and be formally betrothed to someone(Rhaegar himself was betrothed at 19-20), one can think that by the time he came of age, Aerys would no longer be on the throne. Which means that Rhaegar likely would be the one in power(likely, not sure).

The exception here is Rhaegar himself, not the other Targaryens. Aerys-Rhaella, Jaehaerys-Shaera (and their siblings), Aegon V, and many other Targaryens were betrothed and married at very early ages.

It is a huge exception that Aerys II waited as long as he did to find a suitable bride for Rhaegar. And he most likely hoped he and Rhaella would produce a sister for Rhaegar to marry or cousin Steffon Baratheon would produce a daughter for him to marry. It seems that Aerys only buried that hope after Viserys' birth, settling on the Volantene bride idea and then on the Martell cousin.

And I doubt this was done because he was so fond of incest but rather because the whole prophecy thing demanded that he and his sister marry - which neither of them did want to - and he might have thought that this meant that his children marry each other, too.

11 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Do you think Rhaegar would have betrothed his daughter to Viserys? It got me curious, because we don't know Rhaegar's views on incest, nor what he thought of Viserys to the point he would want to betroth his daughter to him.

I'm not sure what Rhaegar thought of his little brother but I doubt he disliked him. And I don't think that such a betrothal would have been arranged by Rhaegar necessarily. It could have been made by Aerys. In light of the fact that Rhaegar didn't seem to hate or despise his father I doubt he didn't like his brother.

11 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

I'm inclined to think he would not, since Aerys and Rhaella's marriage was something Rhaegar probably wanted to forget, but what you think?

While he may not have been happy with how it turned out everybody arranges his marriages in this world (at least among the nobility and royalty). Rhaegar's own marriage Elia Martell was arranged, too. In that sense I'm reasonably sure that Rhaegar would also have arranged incestuous marriages for his children. Especially considering that he was trying to fulfill prophecy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The exception here is Rhaegar himself, not the other Targaryens. Aerys-Rhaella, Jaehaerys-Shaera (and their siblings), Aegon V, and many other Targaryens were betrothed and married at very early ages.

It is a huge exception that Aerys II waited as long as he did to find a suitable bride for Rhaegar. And he most likely hoped he and Rhaella would produce a sister for Rhaegar to marry or cousin Steffon Baratheon would produce a daughter for him to marry. It seems that Aerys only buried that hope after Viserys' birth, settling on the Volantene bride idea and then on the Martell cousin.

And I doubt this was done because he was so fond of incest but rather because the whole prophecy thing demanded that he and his sister marry - which neither of them did want to - and he might have thought that this meant that his children marry each other, too.

I'm not sure what Rhaegar thought of his little brother but I doubt he disliked him. And I don't think that such a betrothal would have been arranged by Rhaegar necessarily. It could have been made by Aerys. In light of the fact that Rhaegar didn't seem to hate or despise his father I doubt he didn't like his brother.

While he may not have been happy with how it turned out everybody arranges his marriages in this world (at least among the nobility and royalty). Rhaegar's own marriage Elia Martell was arranged, too. In that sense I'm reasonably sure that Rhaegar would also have arranged incestuous marriages for his children. Especially considering that he was trying to fulfill prophecy.

What do you think the chances are Dany would have married one of Rhaegar's sons had there been no rebellion? 

Edited by jcmontea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

What do you think the chances are Dany would have married one of Rhaegar's sons had there been no rebellion? 

I think the chances for that would have been pretty good, actually. Rhaegar had married distant cousin Elia Martell and her features had had an effect on one of Rhaegar's children - Princess Rhaenys. If Rhaegar or Aerys II married Aegon to Rhaenys their child(ren) could resemble their mother rather than the father. Since those Valyrian looks of silver-gold hair and purple eyes have come to be seen as the prototypical Targaryen there is actually a need to preserve it. Targaryens looking like Targaryens have a much more regal look.

Daenerys is a pure-blooded Targaryen so she might have been seen as a better match for Rhaegar heir. Even more so since Aerys II apparently didn't really like Rhaenys but would most likely have very much liked his own daughter.

But it is impossible to say how likely it is. What we can say is that the chances are pretty high that both Aerys II and Rhaegar would have continued the incest marriage policy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's some data relevant to this thread: The /r/gameofthrones subreddit did a post-season 7 survey, and 2 of the questions asked were "Daenerys is Jon's aunt - are you okay with them being in a relationship?" and "Do you think Daenerys and Jon will continue their relationship if they find out they are related?" Here are the results, out of over 22,000 responses:

Daenerys is Jon's aunt - are you okay with them being in a relationship?

Yes: 82.9% (18,715)

No: 17.1% (3,874)

Do you think Daenerys and Jon will continue their relationship if they find out they are related?

Yes, they'll continue their relationship: 70% (15,799)

No, they'll end their relationship: 30% (6,781)

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mMSCgSRSP7t-SBtJe7uKOsxrxqvbL6YNzjmgNHIA4IY/viewanalytics

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/70x0qt/tv_results_of_the_postseason_7_survey/

Edited by Shmedricko

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Shmedricko said:

Here's some data relevant to this thread: The /r/gameofthrones subreddit did a post-season 7 survey, and 2 of the questions asked were "Daenerys is Jon's aunt - are you okay with them being in a relationship?" and "Do you think Daenerys and Jon will continue their relationship if they find out they are related?" Here are the results, out of over 22,000 responses:

Daenerys is Jon's aunt - are you okay with them being in a relationship?

Yes: 82.9% (18,715)

No: 17.1% (3,874)

Do you think Daenerys and Jon will continue their relationship if they find out they are related?

Yes, they'll continue their relationship: 70% (15,799)

No, they'll end their relationship: 30% (6,781)

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mMSCgSRSP7t-SBtJe7uKOsxrxqvbL6YNzjmgNHIA4IY/viewanalytics

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/70x0qt/tv_results_of_the_postseason_7_survey/

Interesting. People are all aboard the Jonerys love boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting indeed. 
I always suspected that those who were against their relationship (on the basis that they are related anyway) were in the (often loud) minority.

I know quite a few people irl (~20) who watch GoT and no one of those is actually against them being in a relationship.
Some are indifferent to it, some like it but think the fact that they are related spoils it somewhat, but most are actually like it and don't think the fact that they're related is of any consequence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Shmedricko said:

Here's some data relevant to this thread: The /r/gameofthrones subreddit did a post-season 7 survey, and 2 of the questions asked were "Daenerys is Jon's aunt - are you okay with them being in a relationship?" and "Do you think Daenerys and Jon will continue their relationship if they find out they are related?" Here are the results, out of over 22,000 responses:

Daenerys is Jon's aunt - are you okay with them being in a relationship?

Yes: 82.9% (18,715)

No: 17.1% (3,874)

Do you think Daenerys and Jon will continue their relationship if they find out they are related?

Yes, they'll continue their relationship: 70% (15,799)

No, they'll end their relationship: 30% (6,781)

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mMSCgSRSP7t-SBtJe7uKOsxrxqvbL6YNzjmgNHIA4IY/viewanalytics

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/70x0qt/tv_results_of_the_postseason_7_survey/

Interesting. Most of the show viewers I know haven't read the books. They seem against Jon Dany after it was pointed to them that they are related. But apparently that's not the case with the majority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you can quote the stark family tree all you like. Jon is going to pull out of the relationship, he cant abide by incest. Dany will find out, because it creates a plot line. Perhaps jon will keep it quiet, but sam will blart it out lol. There will be some distance between jon and dany, but part of the healing process will be that Dany teaches Jon about riding a dragon - rhaegal. I think that both will survive war but will not rule together. I think they will have to separate somehow. I

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

you can quote the stark family tree all you like. Jon is going to pull out of the relationship, he cant abide by incest. 

Avuncular marriages aren't considered incest by westerosi standards, and barely by modern standards either, given the amount of countries where it's legal today.
Incest is sexual relations between immediate family members: parents/children/siblings.

If Jon is grossed out by the fact that she's his aunt, then I'd give a big thumbs down to the show/writers, because then they are clearly projecting their own modern morals onto a fictional couple in a medieval setting where cousin-marriages and even to some extent, avuncular marriages are not only seen as acceptable, but even desirable under the right circumstances. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

do you think jon will feel a laughing stock/fool due to the incest bomb?

I believe he will have a small identity-crisis about the fact that he's a legitimate Targaryen and not a Stark bastard, and that the man he idolized and perceived to be his father all his life lied to him (although for good reason) and is not actually his father but his uncle, and that his siblings are actually his cousins, and that his actual father was someone he was taught raped and possibly killed his aunt (who in turn is his biological mother)...this is enough to force anyone to reconsider their identity, but I don't think that Jon will feel like a fool once he's had the time to process all of this. They did lay the foundation for him quickly coming to terms with who he is in S7E7 when he talked to Theon how he could be both a Stark and a Greyjoy - Jon will come to terms with the fact that he can be both a Stark and a Targaryen.

The revelation that Daenerys is his aunt will also shock him (and that he is her nephew will shock her).
It's not the fact that they're in love and have had sex that will shock them, but the fact that she is not only family, but actually the closest family he has left, and vice versa.

They will continue their relationship after a brief hiatus once they've both let the revelation sink in ("fuck the world"), especially if Daenerys ends up pregnant, then I'm positive that they will marry as well.

Edited by MinscS2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

I believe he will have a small identity-crisis about the fact that he's a legitimate Targaryen and not a Stark bastard, and that the man he idolized and perceived to be his father all his life lied to him (although for good reason) and is not actually his father but his uncle, and that his siblings are actually his cousins, and that his actual father was someone he was taught raped and possibly killed his aunt (who in turn is his biological mother)...this is enough to force anyone to reconsider their identity, but I don't think that Jon will feel like a fool once he's had the time to process all of this. They did lay the foundation for him quickly coming to terms with who he is in S7E7 when he talked to Theon how he could be both a Stark and a Greyjoy - Jon will come to terms with the fact that he can be both a Stark and a Targaryen.

The revelation that Daenerys is his aunt will also shock him (and that he is her nephew will shock her).
It's not the fact that they're in love and have had sex that will shock them, but the fact that she is not only family, but actually the closest family he has left, and vice versa.

They will continue their relationship after a brief hiatus once they've both let the revelation sink in ("fuck the world"), especially if Daenerys ends up pregnant, then I'm positive that they will marry as well.

I agree 100%. 

This pregnancy storyline feels like such a critical plot point in terms of defining what is even realistically possible.  

Without it, I suppose a scenario is possible where their relationship deteriotates to such an extent that they are hostile to each other. I don't think that has been set up well in terms of character motivations. I don't think thematically that is satisfying either. Do we really need at this point a desire for power destorys all even love theme? I think the show has already given us enough cynicism throughout its run and we still have Cersei around that we don't need that from these two. But its possible.

With the pregnancy though, its hard to see how things could ever go down a hostile route or go that far down a hostile route. Between their love and a baby, seems like there is just too much there for them not to reconnect with each other no matter how heavy the AeJon news hits. 

Edited by jcmontea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

do you think jon will feel a laughing stock/fool due to the incest bomb?

Why do you continue to "assume facts not in evidence"? As MinscS2 has repeatedly explained, a relationship between aunt and nephew in Westeros is simply not considered incest -- by anyone in Westeros. So there cannot be an "incest bomb" when no one in that society would consider the relationship to be incest.

Incest is a big sin in Westeros -- but relationships are considered incest only if brother-sister or parent-child (and perhaps grandparent-grandchild, but I don't think that issues really comes up). So no incest between Jon and Dany -- no possible incest bomb.

Will they have some reaction to finding out they are related by blood? -- of course -- but they cannot be a laughing stock or fools when no one in that society finds such a relationship to be incest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now