Ser Petyr Parker

Is Jon and Dany's blood relationship supposed to be a problem?

328 posts in this topic

It is not because the Targaryens are doing it all the time, that GRRM sees it as the right thing to do. IIRC, the Old Gods forbid incest. And their rules are generally good rules, guest right, kinslaying... Maybe D&D jumped on the fans expectation. I doubt it will happen in book (because of Val). Anyway, it seems unlikely J&D both survive the Long Night or have children.

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27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

If you read how the author uses incest in any of his stories, not just ASOIAF, you will see that every single time it is used to show negative consequences and the downfall of whatever dynasty. Not all of his older stories have incest, but in the ones that do, the message is the same (if it is not outright rejected before it begins).

I just recently finished a GRRM story I hadn't read before and he managed to slip in the incest angle and associated it with a mental disorder in regards to the character. 

That is how the author is using the incest angle. It is not puppy love, and the only real world Royal links he makes are to the corruption of the blood and power hungry control. Valyrian men needed to covet and control the dragon hatching and riding blood that their women carry. 

What the show is showing is #1 part of a plot rearrangement from other story parts (as very often done), #2 to show shocking things that create buzz and up the ratings.  The showrunners have already set it up as a downfall of sorts, especially when you realize that Bran's urgency to tell Jon and the fall of the wall all happening together show this concept. 

I also find it funny that when the incest was between Cersei and Jaime it was icky gross, but now that it is between two cutsie people it is fine, heavily shipped even. 

That's not what Jon and Dany's relationship is about at all. It's about the coming together of two people from very different cultures that share their experiences together, and only after they already fell in love with each other, they discover they are related. It has nothing to do with isolationism, narcissism, keeping it in the family, or any such BS.

GRRM wanted ASoIaF to be an incestous romance from the start with Jon and Arya being torn by their forbidden passion and in the end they should have been relieved of their angst by learning that they are 'only' first cousins raised as siblings instead of half-siblings, which made their relationship socially acceptable. Curious how GRRM slipped in avuncular marriages on the Stark family tree, eh?

I guess we will see who's right. ;)

Edited by lojzelote

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32 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

One would think that people will learn after D&D and the cast hyping faux tension with Jon vs. Sansa conflict, Arya vs. Sansa conflict, and the whole Dany the Mad Queen BSing.

There will be faux tension for an episode or two and then they will realize that their relationship matters to them more than anything else.

They will obviously also have a baby and they will marry. Like, why do you guys think that LF brought it up? So Sansa can play at being a political genius and come up with it when they talk claims. And of course Dany is not truly barren as was quite heavily implied this season, and there's no way in hell they will let their child to be a bastard, anyway.

Yes, you can vomit if you feel like it, but it's obvious that's what's going to happen.

Agreed. It seems clearly telegraphed that Dany and Jon are going to get married and have a baby. All the teasing of conflict should be viewed in light of the Starkbowl hyping after 6x10 aired, and we all know what happened there.

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29 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It is not because the Targaryens are doing it all the time, that GRRM sees it as the right thing to do. IIRC, the Old Gods forbid incest. And their rules are generally good rules, guest right, kinslaying... Maybe D&D jumped on the fans expectation. I doubt it will happen in book (because of Val). Anyway, it seems unlikely J&D both survive the Long Night or have children.

It was Ghost of High Heart who is obviously connected to the old gods (being an albino and all) that gave Jaehaerys the idea that Aerys and Rhaella must marry to produce the Prince that Was Promised.

Bloodraven, the previous Last Greenseer, spent his mundane life by sleeping around with his half-sister Shiera Seastar and insisting on asking for her hand in marriage. Seeing as Bloodraven was raised by his mother Melissa Blackwood and her kin, I doubt that he didn't worship the old gods before joining the tree. Didn't stop him from doing incest, apparently.

The Starks are known to have practised uncle/niece marriages as well. So unless one believes that Lord Cregan Stark, the Old Man in the North, wasn't aware of the Northern laws, customs, or religious believes, it cannot really be such a taboo.

Edited by lojzelote

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22 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

That's not what Jon and Dany's relationship is about at all. It's about the coming together of two people from very different cultures that share their experiences together, and only after they already fell in love with each other, they discover they are related. It has nothing to do with isolationism, narcissism, keeping it in the family, or any such BS.

GRRM wanted ASoIaF to be an incestous romance from the start with Jon and Arya being torn by their forbidden passion and in the end they should have been relieved of their angst by learning that they are 'only' first cousins raised as siblings instead of half-siblings, which made their relationship socially acceptable. Curious how GRRM slipped in avuncular marriages on the Stark family tree, eh?

I guess we will see who's right. ;)

Uh, where is shown that George gave away the ending to his story? That outline, which he said is made up ""shit", is not the current books at all. And the ending was never given away. If anything, that shows either his rejection of incest before it happens (as he has done in his stories) or it shows a beginning to an end (as he does in his stories).

And George has talked about incest being a way to control and claim things that aren't yours by any other means. This applies to that Stark uncle/niece arrangement from 100? years ago. Did you ever think about why that arrangement went no where down the road? It died out. 

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8 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Agreed. It seems clearly telegraphed that Dany and Jon are going to get married and have a baby. All the teasing of conflict should be viewed in light of the Starkbowl hyping after 6x10 aired, and we all know what happened there.

Well, lords did propose to make her queen instead of Jon, and she did contemplate it, and considered killing her sister. It required an omniscient Bran to fill Sansa and Arya in to result into a positive result in the finale of S7. So, D&D weren't exactly lying at the time of 6.10 that there wouldn't be trouble. As this would be the final season, it could indeed be more than faux-conflict.

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8 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

It was Ghost of High Heart who is obviously connected to the old gods (being an albino and all) that gave Jaehaerys the idea that Aerys and Rhaella must marry to produce the Prince that Was Promised.

And prophecy will bite your cock off... end of that bloodline. 

8 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

Bloodraven, the previous Last Greenseer, spent his mundane life by sleeping around with his half-sister Shiera Seastar and insisting on asking for her hand in marriage.

And you think Bloodraven is a "good" guy???? 

8 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

The Starks are known to have practised uncle/niece marriages as well. So unless one believes that Lord Cregan Stark, the Old Man in the North, wasn't aware of the Northern laws, customs, or religious believes, it cannot really be such a taboo.

You are taking that uncle thing as a hard and fast rule. That is not the case at all. There are "dark grey" Starks in the bloodline as well as the "light grey" ones. 

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33 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, lords did propose to make her queen instead of Jon, and she did contemplate it, and considered killing her sister. It required an omniscient Bran to fill Sansa and Arya in to result into a positive result in the finale of S7. So, D&D weren't exactly lying at the time of 6.10 that there wouldn't be trouble. As this would be the final season, it could indeed be more than faux-conflict.

The point is that it all amounted to nothing, as will this Jon/Dany "conflict." Jon and Dany love each other; they'll get married and have a kid. Anything else is faux hype.

Edited by Newstar

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47 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

It was Ghost of High Heart who is obviously connected to the old gods (being an albino and all) that gave Jaehaerys the idea that Aerys and Rhaella must marry to produce the Prince that Was Promised.

Ygritte, ASoS: Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.

Something in a prophecy doesn't mean it's right. The GoHH gave the prophecy. Nothing says it was in the Old God power to fashion events otherwise.

ETA:

Catelyn,ACoK: Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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56 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Uh, where is shown that George gave away the ending to his story? That outline, which he said is made up ""shit", is not the current books at all. And the ending was never given away. If anything, that shows either his rejection of incest before it happens (as he has done in his stories) or it shows a beginning to an end (as he does in his stories).

And George has talked about incest being a way to control and claim things that aren't yours by any other means. This applies to that Stark uncle/niece arrangement from 100? years ago. Did you ever think about why that arrangement went no where down the road? It died out. 

GRRM may claim he talked sh*t, but I doubt he was outright lying about his intentions to his publishers.

Quote

[Arya] realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night’s Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon’s true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Make of it what you will, but this part surely implies that the relevation will make things okay. Of course, you can make up fantasies about them falling apart in the end, but one would think GRRM would mention it at this point, nah? I mean, he does the sudden time jump to the parentage relevation to assure the publisher that it won't be really about brother-sister incest.

He may have talked about it, but it's clear it doesn't apply to the Dany/Jon situation. What are they stealing from anybody by falling in love exactly? You can just as well damn every political marriage as immoral and doomed to disaster for accumulating wealth and political influence (Cersei/Robert, Jon Arryn/Lysa) and every marriage for love as selfish and self-centered (Duncan/Jenny, Rhaegar/Lyanna, Robb/Jeyne). There are good and bad examples for everything. I'd deal with these things on individual basis, not with blanket statements.

As it happens, Jon and Dany are a wholly unique, in ASoIaF unprecedented situation. You can judge them for daring to fall in love with this new acquientance of theirs, you can judge Dany for not attempting an interruption after she finds out that her miraculous pregnancy is incestous, you can judge them for not wanting their child to be regarded as a bastard. Or it may make you feel sort of uncomfortable, but understand where they are coming from and wish them some happiness. *shrugs*

Btw, if anything happened in the world of ASoIaF a hundred years ago, it means it happened recently. This is supposed to be a society built upon eight thousand years of tradition.

Edited by lojzelote

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23 minutes ago, Newstar said:

The point is that it all amounted to nothing, as will this Jon/Dany "conflict." Jon and Dany love each other; they'll get married and have a kid. Anything else is faux hype.

The point is that there was trouble, and for once it turned all right, just before the endgame starts. There's been loads of trouble season after season, and most of the time it ended badly.

Sure, he might marry her for honor's sake. But he won't wave the complications off. They won't be happy together, because of this. There's no Disney ending for them.

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48 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And prophecy will bite your cock off... end of that bloodline. 

And you think Bloodraven is a "good" guy???? 

You are taking that uncle thing as a hard and fast rule. That is not the case at all. There are "dark grey" Starks in the bloodline as well as the "light grey" ones. 

Nay, it produced Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen, who will make another Targling together. You make it sound as if House Targaryen did not arrive at a population bottleneck ever before.

No, but he's a follower of the old gods. Anyway, didn't you claim to be his #1 fan at one point? Besides, where's the fun in Jon and Dany doing only 100 % unproblematic stuff?

I don't see what it has to do with anything.

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14 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

No, but he's a follower of the old gods. Anyway, didn't you claim to be his #1 fan at one point?

Goddamn right! :thumbsup: Still am, but that doesn't mean that I don't think he is up to no good. I was lucky enough to have a long conversation with the author about Bloodraven where he proceeded to tell me I was a complete weirdo for liking Bloodraven. What's your point? 

14 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

 

Besides, where's the fun in Jon and Dany doing only 100 % unproblematic stuff?

I don't see what it has to do with anything.

It is not unproblematic at all. Never was unproblematic, and never will not be unproblematic. Shipping and fanboying over characters is the death of honest analysis. 

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4 hours ago, Noelle Snow said:

People keep using this argument "oh Targaryens always practiced incest" conveniently forgetting that Jon, while half Targ by blood was not RAISED a Targ. He was raised a Stark, or at least in the ways of the Starks. Show wise, every instance of incest we've seen has been terrible (Jaime/Cersei, Craster, etc). Jon, if they write him at all like even show!Jon which is not a guarantee considering how they butchered him this season, is not going to just go "oh I'm a Targ? Cool, let me continue to fuck my aunt even though it goes against everything I was raised to believe".

But we're talking D&D here so it's just as likely he'll shrug it off and go "eh, she's hot so whatever". :rolleyes:

I take it you do not realize that there were multiple uncle and niece marriages in the Stark line? 

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After reading this whole thread I see quite a bit of misrepresentation concerning the marriage practices of the Starks. While they are by no means as prone to incest as the Targaryens and never married brother to sister, there are several instances of uncles and nieces marrying. To wit, Serena Stark and Edric Stark, as well as Jonnel Stark and Sansa Stark. There are also examples of cousins marrying, like Rickard Stark and Lyarra Stark. So please, enough with the sanctimony about the Starks. 

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Uh, where is shown that George gave away the ending to his story? That outline, which he said is made up ""shit", is not the current books at all. And the ending was never given away. If anything, that shows either his rejection of incest before it happens (as he has done in his stories) or it shows a beginning to an end (as he does in his stories).

And George has talked about incest being a way to control and claim things that aren't yours by any other means. This applies to that Stark uncle/niece arrangement from 100? years ago. Did you ever think about why that arrangement went no where down the road? It died out. 

GRRM also told Alan Taylor back when he was filming for GOT Season 1 that the series is all about Jon and Dany, and that their meeting and relationship is the whole point of the series, so invoking GRRM isn't going to help you much here, I'm afraid. 

While we're talking about GRRM's views on incest, though...GRRM has made incest and incestuous romances a focal point not only of ASOIAF, where the most prominent romantic relationship to date in the books is between a brother and sister, but also of the Targ dynasty, which interests him so much that he can't help himself from writing hundreds of thousands of words about the Targs and their many (many) romantic entanglements with each other. He doesn't "endorse" incestuous romance in real life, but he loves to feature it prominently in this particular fictional universe. If fictional incest bothers you, you're reading the wrong series.

Also, as @Faint pointed out, the Stark family tree has multiple instances of incest.

Edited by Newstar

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No, it's not really a problem. As it's already been stated, aunt/nephew marriage would not be considered "incest" in their world. People are projecting our own moral standards on Westeros and making it into an issue. What would be interesting is if they are actually siblings and then we would see some true "heart in conflict," as least for Jon.

I think what's really going on here is that people don't like Dany so they're using the incest angle as an excuse to bitch about Jon getting together with a character they don't like.

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The larger point is that this is a fantasy series wherein genetics clearly do not correlate to our own reality. Daenerys and Jon are already, by themselves, far more inbred than the children of a brother and sister would be. Were we to equate them to our world, by all that we know, they should be mutated freaks that should have died long ago due to health complications. Instead, they look like Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington. The only thing they are deficient in is height. 

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8 minutes ago, Faint said:

The larger point is that this is a fantasy series wherein genetics clearly do not correlate to our own reality. Daenerys and Jon are already, by themselves, far more inbred than the children of a brother and sister would be. Were we to equate them to our world, by all that we know, they should be mutated freaks that should have died long ago due to health complications. Instead, they look like Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington. The only thing they are deficient in is height. 

lol seriously. Genetics in the asoiaf universe are clearly not like our own. Either that or Valyrian genetics are not like ours. Daenerys herself is more inbred than some of the most most inbred royals in history considering her ancestors had been banging for 300 years. She should have three eyes and four chins. Instead, she's a genuine 10/10. Not realistic at all but it is what it is. You have to take it or leave it lol

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40 minutes ago, Newstar said:

GRRM also told Alan Taylor back when he was filming for GOT Season 1 that the series is all about Jon and Dany, and that their meeting and relationship is the whole point of the series, so invoking GRRM isn't going to help you much here, I'm afraid.

Didn't Taylor say a "converge". I may be misremembering that, however, since when does converge mean hook up? 

Daenerys and Jon are supposed to converge in the books on the Trident as Dany's prophetic dreams tell her. That is the convergence.

 

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