Ser Petyr Parker

Is Jon and Dany's blood relationship supposed to be a problem?

318 posts in this topic

28 minutes ago, Faint said:

The larger point is that this is a fantasy series wherein genetics clearly do not correlate to our own reality. Daenerys and Jon are already, by themselves, far more inbred than the children of a brother and sister would be. Were we to equate them to our world, by all that we know, they should be mutated freaks that should have died long ago due to health complications. Instead, they look like Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington. The only thing they are deficient in is height. 

Hee. And yes. If readers/viewers can accept that this universe has dragons and ice zombies, surely they can accept the idea that genetics are different in Westeros than they are in the real world. The whole "The seed is strong" thing where Baratheon paternity can be proved by a child's hair colour is another good example of how real world genetic rules don't apply in Westeros. 

Jon and Dany are both descended from heavily inbred lines (only on the father's side in Jon's case, although there is incest on the Stark side), and they're both gorgeous, healthy physical specimens (apart from Jon having been killed and brought back to life, that is, LOL).

Edited by Newstar

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5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Didn't Taylor say a "converge". I may be misremembering that, however, since when does converge mean hook up? 

Daenerys and Jon are supposed to converge in the books on the Trident as Dany's prophetic dreams tell her. That is the convergence.

 

I don't think the dreams said anything about converging with Jon at the Trident. All we know is that she will fight the Others from dragonback at the Trident (and this may be where the final battle takes place). She will have probably met Jon well before then

Alan Taylor said they've known about the relationship since the beginning and brought up a time where GRRM mentioned that their meeting was 'the point' of the series. And also, this is way too big of a plot point to come from George himself. If Jon and Dany conceive a child in the show, they are certainly doing the same in the books

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I'm out rushing around at the moment so sorry for the non quotes from me at the minute. 

Quote

While we're talking about GRRM's views on incest, though...GRRM has made incest and incestuous romances a focal point not only of ASOIAF, where the most prominent romantic relationship to date in the books is between a brother and sister, but also of the Targ dynasty, which interests him so much that he can't help himself from writing hundreds of thousands of words about the Targs and their many (many) romantic entanglements with each other. He doesn't "endorse" incestuous romance in real life, but he loves to feature it prominently in this particular fictional universe. If fictional incest bothers you, you're reading the wrong series.

And somehow you think these are all healthy or normal??? You don't see the destruction that they are causing. You seemed to forget that the hippy author who grew up poor is not fond of the have's since he was a have not. Incest in his stories are about elitism and control. HOW is that a good thing? 

Quote

Also, as @Faint pointed out, the Stark family tree has multiple instances of incest.

Multiple? :lmao:

Apparently a cousin once removed (which means a few more bloodlines of relation are added in there) is a satisfactory spread. And that happened exactly once. And like I said earleir, George describes a situation like the Stark uncle thing in a SSM where he spelled out what Tywin was doing was for blood purity and control of Lannister power. How is that a good thing? And that was never repeated in a Stark history. 

George is a sci-fi writer always and forever, and the incest and dragon-blood mixing is a carryover genetic manipulation theme from his sci-fi days. Seriously, read his older stuff if you want to see how he works it out. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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8 minutes ago, Commander Jon Snow said:

I don't think the dreams said anything about converging with Jon at the Trident. All we know is that she will fight the Others from dragonback at the Trident (and this may be where the final battle takes place). She will have probably met Jon well before then

What makes you think she will be doing exactly this with the Others? 

8 minutes ago, Commander Jon Snow said:

Alan Taylor said they've known about the relationship since the beginning and brought up a time where GRRM mentioned that their meeting was 'the point' of the series. And also, this is way too big of a plot point to come from George himself. If Jon and Dany conceive a child in the show, they are certainly doing the same in the books

So, did Taylor read the books, or is he "shipping" these two together because they are both main characters and everyone knows the main characters hook up? Is is quite easy to see how a non book reader would come to this conclusion based on a typical vague response from George RR Martin. 

But you are correct, this is way too big of a plot point to come from George, so it has to come from somewhere else. 

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12 minutes ago, Commander Jon Snow said:

I don't think the dreams said anything about converging with Jon at the Trident. All we know is that she will fight the Others from dragonback at the Trident (and this may be where the final battle takes place). She will have probably met Jon well before then

Alan Taylor said they've known about the relationship since the beginning and brought up a time where GRRM mentioned that their meeting was 'the point' of the series. And also, this is way too big of a plot point to come from George himself. If Jon and Dany conceive a child in the show, they are certainly doing the same in the books

Actually, I am out driving errands and such. Could you do me an honest favor and link and copy/paste the conversation that Taylor says?  That might help. 

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16 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Hee. And yes. If readers/viewers can accept that this universe has dragons and ice zombies, surely they can accept the idea that genetics are different in Westeros than they are in the real world. The whole "The seed is strong" thing where Baratheon paternity can be proved by a child's hair colour is another good example of how real world genetic rules don't apply in Westeros. 

Jon and Dany are both descended from heavily inbred lines (only on the father's side in Jon's case, although there is incest on the Stark side), and they're both gorgeous, healthy physical specimens (apart from Jon having been killed and brought back to life, that is, LOL).

That's the thing, once we acknowledge that genetics do not function at all how they do in our world, that removes one of the reasons we oppose incest in real life. The other, intimate relations with a familial member, does not apply in this case because Jon and Daenerys were not raised together, much less had anything like an aunt and nephew relationship. They are not "family." 

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Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

What makes you think she will be doing exactly this with the Others? 

So, did Taylor read the books, or is he "shipping" these two together because they are both main characters and everyone knows the main characters hook up? Is is quite easy to see how a non book reader would come to this conclusion based on a typical vague response from George RR Martin. 

But you are correct, this is way too big of a plot point to come from George, so it has to come from somewhere else. 

"That night she dreamt she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragon fire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened." 

That to me seems like a def foreshadowing of her fighting the Others on the Trident. 

Taylor has never read the books. He's a director so his job was pretty much just to shoot the script on to the screen. Funnily enough, it wasn't because they were both main characters. He actually said that he was surprised when George told him that 'it's about Jon and Dany' because he didn't think Jon was any more important than Robb or any of the other characters at the time. 

"Anyways, he alluded to the fact that Jon and Dany were the point, kind of. That, at the time, there was a huge, vast array of characters, and Jon was a lowly, you know, bastard son. So it wasn't clear to us at the time.."

So he didn't even realize that Jon was probably the most important male character till George told him that

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People keep saying Todd and Daedpan are in love.  This makes me seriously question said posters' definitions of love. Because what we have seen is far from love 

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19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Multiple? :lmao:

Apparently a cousin once removed (which means a few more bloodlines of relation are added in there) is a satisfactory spread. And that happened exactly once. And like I said earleir, George describes a situation like the Stark uncle thing in a SSM where he spelled out what Tywin was doing was for blood purity and control of Lannister power. How is that a good thing? And that was never repeated in a Stark history. 

Actually, no. There are at least two instances of Stark marriages between an uncle and niece. Moreover, the Starks have been marrying the same handful of families for centuries. They are not exactly the picture of genetic health. They are something like the equivalent to the Habsburgs, except, conveniently, without all the genetic deformities. 

Edited by Faint

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I've seen a lot of pro-incest ASOIAF fans out there, but the thing about incest in this series is that it almost always leads to some sort of disaster. The only pair that was spared was Jaehaerys and Alysanne, and even so it was their grandchildren that enabled The Dance of the Dragons, initiating the downfall of their House. We know that our beloved Egg eventually came to view incest as a harbinger of doom, and his son Jaehaerys defying him, both in his own marriage and in his children's, is what led to the rise of Mad King Aerys. 

It did? Daeron II and Prince Maekar were not married to their sisters or very close cousins yet they still produced freaks like Aerion Brightflame and failures like Rhaegel, Aerys I, and Daeron the Drunk.

The idea that everything would have been fine in the insanity department if Jaehaerys had married Celia Tully and Shaera Luthor Tyrell is not exactly that likely. Jaehaerys II could also have had a son named Aerys, and said son could have been ever madder than our Aerys II. Not to mention that Egg's grand plan involved giving the Tyrells royal blood. That sounds like a very bad idea to me. 

In addition, we have a prophecy making the incestuous marriage of Aerys and Rhaella a prerequisite to produce the promised prince - a prophecy made by a Child of the Forest or by someone associated with them. Apparently incest isn't a sin from the point of view of the Ghost of High Heart if it is 'necessary' for the common good.

One could also argue that Aerys II burning people alive and the Targaryens losing the Iron Throne in a dreadful civil war also was necessary to make Dany and Jon the people they are today, and put them in the places they have to be to fulfill their destinies. The funny thing there is that either or both of them being raised as pampered princes(sses) at court wouldn't have allowed them to become who they have to be to do what they are supposed to.

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It is not because the Targaryens are doing it all the time, that GRRM sees it as the right thing to do. IIRC, the Old Gods forbid incest. And their rules are generally good rules, guest right, kinslaying... Maybe D&D jumped on the fans expectation. I doubt it will happen in book (because of Val). Anyway, it seems unlikely J&D both survive the Long Night or have children.

The whole women-stealing thing of the wildlings is certainly not presented a good trait among them, and that custom really seems to come from their ridiculous idea that you better not marry people you grew up with, never mind whether you are (closely) related to them or not.

Val might warm Jon's bed for a time in the books - or not - but it is obvious that Dany and Jon will end up together in the books as well. The idea that Jon could permanently hook up with Val is about as likely as Dany living happily ever after with Hizdahr and/or Daario. That is not going to happen.

The idea that the Dany-Jon thing is a plot element the show came up with is ridiculous. This whole thing is named 'A Song of Ice and Fire', is it not? On the global level the title refers to the fight against the Others with the help of the dragons but on the mundane level of romances and alliances the love of Jon and Dany obviously could also be described as a song of ice and fire. These two are the central characters of the story and they coming together and doing stuff is the prerequisite for a successful fight against the Others.

I mean, Jon does have a Targaryen father but he isn't fire. He is ice, if you want to associate the Starks with that element (which they are in less literal sense than the Targaryens are associated with fire). But Daenerys is pure fire if you take a Targaryen looking like a proper Targaryen and hatching herself some dragons as evidence in that department. Dany's Blackwood heritage (she is half-Blackwood due to her great-grandmother Betha) is about as visible in her features as is Jon's Targaryen heritage in his.

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Ygritte, ASoS: Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.

Something in a prophecy doesn't mean it's right. The GoHH gave the prophecy. Nothing says it was in the Old God power to fashion events otherwise.

ETA:

Catelyn,ACoK: Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike

Here are the wildlings actually their ugly and superstitious faces. If there are people who are not to be blamed for the vile sins of incest then it is 'the abominations' born from such unions. We see this perfectly fine with the whole story of Gilly and her child. She is most likely a child of incest as is her own child, but anyone killing them as 'abominations' would commit a vile crime - as would anyone killing Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella simply because of what they are. That is why both Stannis and Renly aren't exactly sympathetic in their power-grabbing in AGoT and ACoK. They want to seize power over the dead bodies of innocent children.

The wildling approach to children born of incest seems to be similar to the approach they take towards children suffering from greyscale. They are a culture that focuses so much on strength and survival that they kill the weak and sick rather than to care for them - customs the Northmen follow in dire winters, too, when the old men have to kill themselves and mothers kill the infants who are not likely to make it so that the family can survive. That is something a society might be forced to do when life is hard, etc. but it is not a positive trait in general nor something that should be applauded. It is actually quite ugly.

1 hour ago, Faint said:

After reading this whole thread I see quite a bit of misrepresentation concerning the marriage practices of the Starks. While they are by no means as prone to incest as the Targaryens and never married brother to sister, there are several instances of uncles and nieces marrying. To wit, Serena Stark and Edric Stark, as well as Jonnel Stark and Sansa Stark. There are also examples of cousins marrying, like Rickard Stark and Lyarra Stark. So please, enough with the sanctimony about the Starks. 

It is indeed remarkable that we have so many openly visible uncle-niece and cousin marriages in the Stark family tree while there are no such marriages (aside from Tywin-Joanna) in the Lannister family tree. Now, I daresay there must even be more cousin marriages in the Stark family tree we don't recognize as such since we don't how closely related the various women marrying into House Stark were related to the Starks in the first place, but there should be quite a few first, second, and third cousin marriages there, too. 

In that sense, there is - from the book POV - no reason imaginable why Jon Snow should not want to love, fuck, and marry Daenerys. Especially if he falls in love with her before he learns who she actually is. If you love someone, you love someone - learning something abstract about that person like how she is related to you is not going to change that. Especially not if you yourself are descended from people practicing incest and/or cousin marriages and you and your lover have turned out fine.

50 minutes ago, Faint said:

The larger point is that this is a fantasy series wherein genetics clearly do not correlate to our own reality. Daenerys and Jon are already, by themselves, far more inbred than the children of a brother and sister would be. Were we to equate them to our world, by all that we know, they should be mutated freaks that should have died long ago due to health complications. Instead, they look like Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington. The only thing they are deficient in is height. 

One should actually ask some biologist how the offspring of a human bloodline which predominantly practiced sibling incest for about 6,000 years would look like in our world. One assumes those individuals would either already be their own new (sub-)species or very far down that road. Assuming the original non-incestuous population had gene defects to pass down (who knows, perhaps 'the blood of the dragon' took care of all that and replaced it with the rather high risk of producing human-dragon hybrids?) they would have to develop a lot of positive mutations to cope with the problem, mutations that would set them further and further apart from 'normal humans'.

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Just now, Faint said:

Actually, no. There are at least two instances of Stark marriages between an uncle and niece. Moreover, the Starks have been marrying the same handful of families for centuries. They are not exactly the picture of genetic health. They are something like the equivalent to the Habsburgs, except, conveniently, without all the genetic deformities. 

We have their family tree going back a few hundred years. It branches. 

And for the third time, what George described in that case with the uncles was a "one time" event that promptly ended and was the same scenario that he describes as an anjust move for control, because no, not all Starks are perfect. 

Now. I have to drive. 

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One should actually ask some biologist how the offspring of a human bloodline which predominantly practiced sibling incest for about 6,000 years would look like in our world

No. One should read the author's work to find out how the author repeatedly handles incest in his fantasy worlds. GRRM is not using real world rules to incest at all so real world rules do not apply. He has incest always fail, which means, if Dany and Jon do hook up in the books, then it will be a sign of the end times and we should be rooting for the Orhers because that is what the author tends to do with it. Read his work. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It did? Daeron II and Prince Maekar were not married to their sisters or very close cousins yet they still produced freaks like Aerion Brightflame and failures like Rhaegel, Aerys I, and Daeron the Drunk.

 

I do realize that, but even if their parents were not related, those same people that you listed still came from a long line of inbreeding, which is bound to effect future generations of the family tree, as opposed to just direct offspring.

I don't think there's really much use in debating the matter at this point. We just have to acknowledge that we simply have different opinions on this. 

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33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I'm out rushing around at the moment so sorry for the non quotes from me at the minute. 

And somehow you think these are all healthy or normal??? You don't see the destruction that they are causing. You seemed to forget that the hippy author who grew up poor is not fond of the have's since he was a have not. Incest in his stories are about elitism and control. HOW is that a good thing? 

Oh, for crying out loud. It's a fact that GRRM has chosen to build the world of Westeros around a dynasty that regularly practices incest and has several incestuous relationship. It's a fact that the most prominent romantic relationship in ASOIAF so far is between a brother/sister pair. It's a fact that two of the three lead characters in ASOIAF are descended from incestuous lines (three if you buy A+J=T). It's also a fact that GRRM has written hundreds of thousands of words about this incestuous dynasty and their incestuous romances. Finally, given what we know of the Targ histories, it's safe to say that the most prosperous reign and happiest king/queen marriage in ASOIAF history belonged to a brother/sister Targ pair (Jaehaerys/Alysanne). 

It's reasonable to conclude that GRRM doesn't share your concerns about conveying that Incest is Bad, and therefore any arguments saying that Jon/Dany will end in tears because GRRM is determined to send a Message about incest are doomed to failure. GRRM doesn't care about your pearl-clutching, and again, if fictional incest bothers you so much, why not check out one of the many, many fantasy series that don't feature it? GRRM has never made any secret of how fictional incest is a big part of the ASOIAF universe, and Jon/Dany was telegraphed from the very beginning with ASOIAF. 

 

24 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So, did Taylor read the books, or is he "shipping" these two together because they are both main characters and everyone knows the main characters hook up? Is is quite easy to see how a non book reader would come to this conclusion based on a typical vague response from George RR Martin. 

You should read the Alan Taylor interview I linked. He said when asked about whether GRRM had talked about a romantic relationship that he couldn't get into it because it was getting into S8 territory.

Saying Jon and Dany's meeting and subsequent relationship is the point of the series is anything but vague, IMO.

 

18 minutes ago, Snormund said:

People keep saying Todd and Daedpan are in love.  This makes me seriously question said posters' definitions of love. Because what we have seen is far from love 

The juxtaposition of Bran's Rhaegar/Lyanna voiceover "He loved her" on Jon and "She loved him" on Dany couldn't be clearer. Jon and Dany are canonically in love in the show. Now, whether the writers, directors and cast succeeded in conveying that love is another question, but the characters are deeply in love.

Edited by Newstar

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1 minute ago, Faint said:

Actually, no. There are at least two instances of Starks marriages between an uncle and niece. Moreover, the Starks have been marrying the same handful of families for centuries. They are not exactly the picture of genetic health. They are something like the equivalent to the Habsburgs, except, conveniently, without all the genetic deformities. 

Exactly. The very fact that most of the noble families we know the family trees/recent marriages pick their brides from the same limited gene pool - a dozen or perhaps a score of noble families - makes the entire nobility and royalty of Westeros inbred in the extreme. The First Men noble houses would have done that for, perhaps, about 8,000 years. The only infusion of 'new blood' would have come with the Andals, and that has happened millennia ago, too.

I had hoped that both the Starks and the Lannisters would have some surprise brides from different regions or perhaps even Essos but it seems they all marry their neighbors and cousins. Uncommon marriages like the Lannister-Webber match or the Royce/Blackwood-Stark unions are exceedingly rare.

And even those can be cousin marriages. If we take the MUSH information into account the chances are very good that Melantha Blackwood is descended from one of Cregan Stark's daughters by Black Aly Blackwood because a daughter of hers is married to Benjicot Blackwoods eldest son and heir Seth (the brother of Melissa Blackwood) - who could very well be the grandfather of Betha and Melantha Blackwood.

The idea that this kind of thing does not happen very often simply makes no sense at all. George may not have intended it when he started writing the series but the way he did it is clear that the entire nobility is very much inbred.

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^ Exactly. The very fact that these families have supposedly been around for thousands of years and marrying each other for that long by itself is not very good for the genetic diversity for nobles in Westeros. So we have to assume that genetics just work differently.

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3 hours ago, lojzelote said:

GRRM may claim he talked sh*t, but I doubt he was outright lying about his intentions to his publishers.

Make of it what you will, but this part surely implies that the relevation will make things okay. Of course, you can make up fantasies about them falling apart in the end, but one would think GRRM would mention it at this point, nah? I mean, he does the sudden time jump to the parentage relevation to assure the publisher that it won't be really about brother-sister incest.

Because they were tormented because as half-siblings it was more incestuous, and it ended up being less incestuous.

With JOn/Dany is the contrary to no incest at all, to a thing which is more incestuous than Jon/Arya's general outline.

They HAVE to be tormented even if they love eachother.

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I would also caution against glorifying the avuncular marriages within the Stark family tree. Rickon Stark was Cregan's oldest son and heir, and by the traditional inheritance system in Westeros, his daughters would both be ahead of Cregan's other sons in succession (we see this with Alys Karstark in ADWD). Seeing as Rickon apparently predeceased his father, I think it's quite likely that the Stark sisters' marriages to their uncles was used as a way to rob them of their birthright. Both Serena and Sansa should have inherited Winterfell before their uncle Jonnel, and yet they clearly did not. 

I'm also noticing that this conversation seems to be veering towards the books instead of the show. I think the question the OP was asking concerned how Jon and Dany's relationship will be presented on the show, not whether or not it'll exactly match the books.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort

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1 hour ago, Newstar said:

GRRM also told Alan Taylor back when he was filming for GOT Season 1 that the series is all about Jon and Dany, and that their meeting and relationship is the whole point of the series, so invoking GRRM isn't going to help you much here, I'm afraid. 

 

Can you quote ALL the exact words please?

I mean, does it say it this way INCLUDING that this relationship has a disney ending?

Quote

Also, as @Faint pointed out, the Stark family tree has multiple instances of incest.

a minority. The Stark family tree proves it's not the common thing anyway. 

 

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