Is Jon and Dany's blood relationship supposed to be a problem?

[Faint]

Has anybody brought up Martin's original outline? Apparently, Martin originally envisioned Jon pining after someone he thought to be his half-sister. Make of that what you will, but to me, this is indicative of the fact that Martin looks at the incest issue quite differently than many here are claiming. 

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

NCW gives great interviews. Do you happen to have a link? 

I was trying to find it and then the post was deleted.

I am on the phone now so it's difficult to find it but if you go to the General GOT subforum in the thread "Jaime and Brienne what's going on?" I think it's there. The thread is also on my profile.

[Lord Varys]

32 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Seriously, stop telling me that I project feelings about incest or whatever in order to write my statements in this thread, please because I haven't done that and, as the writer of my own posts, I have already stated that it is not he case and explained why (this is not a Jonerys is good or bad thread and I'm being honest with what I've seen and heard in the interviews of the guys who know the ENDGAME and WRITE THE SHOW).

Well, then, okay, but can you explain to my why you actually think Jon shouldn't tell his child by Daenerys how his parents are biologically related?

32 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I strongly disagree with the bolded. Suggesting that the bolded thing is real makes no sense for me, as I have not read or watch the Jon Snow character you are describing. 

The issue is simple:

Jon Snow never gives any indication that he abhors or is disgusted by incest. He treats Gilly and her son kindly both in books and show, does he not? So why should we assume he has problems with that kind of thing? On what do you base that assumption of yours?

I mean, if you can provide us with quotes were either show or book Jon shows that he dislikes incest (or rather avuncular relationships) then I'm certainly willing to listen.

But just giving proclamations that Jon is doesn't like incest/avuncular relationships without actually giving evidence for that isn't an argument.

32 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

And I insist, if you consider your version to be the real truth, where people sho don't talk about marrying aunts means they are not disgusted by it because they haven't shared their feelings before; fine, but that's not how I view these characters beyond the Targaryen family and the Lannister twincest, so I won't comment further on it.

Even if we assumed that Jon might be uncomfortable with marrying his aunt he already fell in love with her. He never saw her as his aunt nor is ever going to see her as such. Family bonds develop in childhood - you are emotionally close to your parents, siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. - if and only if you grew up with them and actually grew to like them. If that's the case and you live in a society where you don't have sexual relations with your siblings or other close kin then you don't do that.

If you did not grow up with your biological family then the parents and other family you might have are strangers you feel strangely attracted to. And that usually leads to incestuous relationships. It is the Oedipus story.

And that certainly seems to be part of what draws Dany and Jon together. Knowing about their kinship is not going to change their feelings for each other. Just as it is not going to kill their attraction and desire for each other. Biology always defeats abstract knowledge.

The idea that suddenly learning that your beloved spouse is your biological sibling must kill your passion for that person because it is 'wrong' isn't very convincing. Some people might have problems with that but there is no reason to believe that Jon and/or Daenerys are such people. If they are actually in love they won't care. 

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

Well, then, okay, but can you explain to my why you actually think Jon shouldn't tell his child by Daenerys how his parents are biologically related?

The issue is simple:

Jon Snow never gives any indication that he abhors or is disgusted by incest. He treats Gilly and her son kindly both in books and show, does he not? So why should we assume he has problems with that kind of thing? On what do you base that assumption of yours?

I mean, if you can provide us with quotes were either show or book Jon shows that he dislikes incest (or rather avuncular relationships) then I'm certainly willing to listen.

But just giving proclamations that Jon is doesn't like incest/avuncular relationships without actually giving evidence for that isn't an argument.

Even if we assumed that Jon might be uncomfortable with marrying his aunt he already fell in love with her. He never saw her as his aunt nor is ever going to see her as such. Family bonds develop in childhood - you are emotionally close to your parents, siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. - if and only if you grew up with them and actually grew to like them. If that's the case and you live in a society where you don't have sexual relations with your siblings or other close kin then you don't do that.

If you did not grow up with your biological family then the parents and other family you might have are strangers you feel strangely attracted to. And that usually leads to incestuous relationships. It is the Oedipus story.

And that certainly seems to be part of what draws Dany and Jon together. Knowing about their kinship is not going to change their feelings for each other. Just as it is not going to kill their attraction and desire for each other. Biology always defeats abstract knowledge.

The idea that suddenly learning that your beloved spouse is your biological sibling must kill your passion for that person because it is 'wrong' isn't very convincing. Some people might have problems with that but there is no reason to believe that Jon and/or Daenerys are such people. If they are actually in love they won't care. 

what? The lack of him having said he doesn't abhor ir means he is ok with it? What quote should I post? Your reasoning means that then any character also might want it because they don't talk about it instead of the most logical thing that is that outside the Targ family incest is not normal. And what does Gilly have to do with it? Seriously! Should he condemn Gilly?! Then Sam is into incest as well....

at least you made me laugh this time.

[Blackwater Revenant]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

As I said before, "Nuh uh!!!!" is not an argument. Neither, for that matter, is "You don't agree with me, so you obviously don't understand the books." What nonsense. If you can't actually respond to my points, and if you can't stop yourself from condescendingly implying I don't get GRRM's themes because I don't immediately agree with you, don't bother responding at all.

Lol, what points did you bring up? All you said was "Nuh uh" George is not commenting on incest, while ignoring the point of my response to you in the first place; Which was that what you put forth as an argument to support that GRRM doesn't view incest in a negative way was a fallacy, and did not support your stance. You then went on to double up on the same ridiculous argument by babbling on about how George loves the Targs, and writes a lot about them.

But fine, here are some quotes from the books to support that incest is not "no big deal" as you put it, and that it is frowned upon and has actual consequences. 

...And these are just a few of them, that took me about five minutes to find, and not including the ones alluding to the consequences of incest resulting in madness running through the Targ family, and the prominence of the twisted and deformed stillbirths that were common amongst the Targaryens.

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

Quote

 

"Joffrey the Illborn," one of the Cerwyn knights growled. "Small wonder he's faithless, with the Kingslayer for a father."

"Aye," said another, "the gods hate incest. Look how they brought down the Targaryens."

 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

Quote

"She had seen enough of Robert Baratheon at Winterfell to know that the king did not regard Joffrey with any great warmth. If the boy was truly Jaime's seed, Robert would have put him to death along with his mother, and few would have condemned him. Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.

 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn V

Quote

 

"If you can call them that. You'll like them no more than I did, I promise."

"Can we hope for no help from the south, Lady Stark?" asked Utherydes Wayn, her father's steward. "This charge of incest . . . Lord Tywin does not suffer such slights lightly. He will seek to wash the stain from his daughter's name with the blood of her accuser, Lord Stannis must see that. He has no choice but to make common cause with us."

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aenys I

Quote

This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. Incest was denounced as vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable.

It had long been the Valyrian custom to marry within the family, thus preserving the royal bloodlines. Yet this was not a custom native to Westeros, and was viewed as an abomination by the Faith. The Dragon and his sisters had been accepted without comment, and the issue had not arisen when Prince Aenys was wed in 22 AC to Alyssa Velaryon, the daughter of the king's master of ships and lord admiral; though she was a Targaryen upon her mother's side, this made her only a cousin. But when the tradition looked to continue yet again, matters came to a sudden head.

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

Quote

 

"Longspear's not your brother."

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

 

And I would point your attention to the second last bolded quote, and the inclusion of "clan kin" in the last one, for all of you that argue that just because they are only cousins, it's no big deal.

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Well, like I said, nothing I can say will sway anyone from how they already feel about all of this. Truthfully, I think the conversation at large has less to do with how people feel about incest in this story and more to do with how they feel about Jon and Dany as a couple. Obviously that's not true for everyone, and I'm certainly not suggesting that of you, but I suspect that these conversations tend to be more about shipping than anything else, and there's no point in debating ships. 

I agree that this may be the case for some and for those to whom that may apply, it looks to me like there's an additional component of needing to have one's ship be idealized, without flaw, etc. I've seen posters here and there on this forum say that the incest is messed up and refuse to paint it up pretty but admit that they like the ship anyhow which is really quite refreshing. I don't agree, but I can at least respect that they own it in totality.  

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Lol, what points did you bring up? All you said was "Nuh uh" George is not commenting on incest, while ignoring the point of my response to you in the first place; Which was that what you put forth as an argument to support that GRRM doesn't view incest in a negative way was a fallacy, and did not support your stance. You then went on to double up on the same ridiculous argument by babbling on about how George loves the Targs, and writes a lot about them.

But fine, here are some quotes from the books to support that incest is not "no big deal" as you put it, and that it is frowned upon and has actual consequences. 

...And these are just a few of them, that took me about five minutes to find, and not including the ones alluding to the consequences of incest resulting in madness running through the Targ family, and the prominence of the twisted and deformed stillbirths that were common amongst the Targaryens.

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn V

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aenys I

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

 

Also:

• The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. "The blood of the dragon must remain pure," the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valryia before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.
• Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries...yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.
• Aenys seemed content to let the matter lie with Maegor's exile, but the High Septon was still not satisfied. Not even the appointment of the reputed miracle-worker, Septon Murmison, as Aenys's new Hand could wholly repair the breach with the Faith. And in 41 AC, Aenys made matters worse when he chose to wed his eldest daughter, Rhaena, to his son and heir, Aegon, whom he named Prince of Dragonstone in Maegor's place. From the Starry Sept came a denunciation such as no king had ever received before, addressed to "King Abomination"—and suddenly pious lords and even the smallfolk who had once loved Aenys turned against him.

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

what? The lack of him having said he doesn't abhor ir means he is ok with it? What quote should I post? Your reasoning means that then any character also might want it because they don't talk about it instead of the most logical thing that is that outside the Targ family incest is not normal. And what does Gilly have to do with it? Seriously! Should he condemn Gilly?! Then Sam is into incest as well....

at least you made me laugh this time.

Well, the children born of incest are seen as abominations by the people in Westeros who condemn incest. That usually means that not only incestuous couples but also their children are to be treated the way you treat 'abominations'. And I guess that means you kill them - it surely is what the High Septon and the Faith Militant demanded the faithful do during the Faith Militant Uprising.

Jon and Sam never judge Gilly for what she did nor for what she is. That shows that they don't give a rat's ass about incest. It doesn't mean they want to fuck their sisters or daughters, either. That's a separate issue. But if either of them happens to fall in love with his aunt while not knowing who she is - as Jon does - neither of them should lose any sleep over his love for that aunt once he finds out who she is.

Now, I'm with you that Jon hasn't been raised in the way making it likely that he would want to fall in love with Daenerys would he know she was his aunt when he first meets her. He hasn't been raised as Targaryen, after all. But since he is attracted her knowing that he is a Targaryen, too, certainly should help him feel normal and happy when fucking her. After all, the Targaryens can not only fuck their aunts but also their sisters. As a Targaryen, people would effectively expect him to marry close kin. Nobody would object to that once they actually accept that he is a Targaryen.

And, yes, I demand that you prove your claim that Jon Snow has issues with avuncular relationships if you claim that he does. Just as I'd claim that you give me quotes confirming that Jon has severe issues with homosexual love and sex if you were to claim that Jon would never allow Satin to kiss him or suck his cock. I'm not saying that such a relationship is in the works, mind you, but if you were for some reason hellbent against that you would have to provide evidence to convince anyone.

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

Well, the children born of incest are seen as abominations by the people in Westeros who condemn incest. That usually means that not only incestuous couples but also their children are to be treated the way you treat 'abominations'. And I guess that means you kill them - it surely is what the High Septon and the Faith Militant demanded the faithful do during the Faith Militant Uprising.

Jon and Sam never judge Gilly for what she did nor for what she is. That shows that they don't give a rat's ass about incest. It doesn't mean they want to fuck their sisters or daughters, either. That's a separate issue. But if either of them happens to fall in love with his aunt while not knowing who she is - as Jon does - neither of them should lose any sleep over his love for that aunt once he finds out who she is.

Now, I'm with you that Jon hasn't been raised in the way making it likely that he would want to fall in love with Daenerys would he know she was his aunt when he first meets her. He hasn't been raised as Targaryen, after all. But since he is attracted her knowing that he is a Targaryen, too, certainly should help him feel normal and happy when fucking her. After all, the Targaryens can not only fuck their aunts but also their sisters. As a Targaryen, people would effectively expect him to marry close kin. Nobody would object to that once they actually accept that he is a Targaryen.

And, yes, I demand that you prove your claim that Jon Snow has issues with avuncular relationships if you claim that he does. Just as I'd claim that you give me quotes confirming that Jon has severe issues with homosexual love and sex if you were to claim that Jon would never allow Satin to kiss him or suck his cock. I'm not saying that such a relationship is in the works, mind you, but if you were for some reason hellbent against that you would have to provide evidence to convince anyone.

maybe Jon and Sam don't judge Gilly because she is a victim of awful rape and her baby has no fault. Maybe because they are good hearted as we have seen through thr show in the books. Sam and Jon don't like incest and wont condemn a victim!!!!!!!. because they are good people

I suppose that Jon might try to justify his action with being a Targaryen. But that will be a lie since he can't become a Targatyen and be happy with it at his age. Of course it was not their fault since they didn't know and they might continue their relationship but there will be trouble. I don't think that Jon will embrace his Targ aide fully...never. He is the personification of the Northern values and the image of Nrd Stark. He even can't lie BC of honour as we saw.

about the quotes. Actually its the other way around. People in real life and in westeros are not attracted to relatives and find the idea repulsive. That's the most normal thing by far. So maybe you should provide quotes that suggest he is not into the Northern values or when he says he is into it. I mean real quotes not subjective interpretation like the ones used to defend Jonrya.

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

Also:

• The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. "The blood of the dragon must remain pure," the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valryia before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.
• Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries...yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.
• Aenys seemed content to let the matter lie with Maegor's exile, but the High Septon was still not satisfied. Not even the appointment of the reputed miracle-worker, Septon Murmison, as Aenys's new Hand could wholly repair the breach with the Faith. And in 41 AC, Aenys made matters worse when he chose to wed his eldest daughter, Rhaena, to his son and heir, Aegon, whom he named Prince of Dragonstone in Maegor's place. From the Starry Sept came a denunciation such as no king had ever received before, addressed to "King Abomination"—and suddenly pious lords and even the smallfolk who had once loved Aenys turned against him.

thanks for the quotes!

[The Fattest Leech]

And Jon keeps to the old gods, and the old gods are against incest:

A Game of Thrones - Jon VI

No one moved.

"Well and good," said Mormont. "You may take your vows here at evenfall, before Septon Celladar and the first of your order. Do any of you keep to the old gods?"

Jon stood. "I do, my lord."

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

Even now, he did not know if he was doing the honorable thing. The southron had it easier. They had their septons to talk to, someone to tell them the gods' will and help sort out right from wrong. But the Starks worshiped the old gods, the nameless gods, and if the heart trees heard, they did not speak.

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon V

And then they were running. Jon made no effort to guide the horse. It was all he could do to stay on her as they plunged through mud and rain and thunder. Wet grass whipped at his face and a spear flew past his ear. If the horse stumbles and breaks a leg, they will run me down and kill me, he thought, but the old gods were with him and the horse did not stumble. Lightning shivered through the black dome of sky, and thunder rolled across the plains. The shouts dwindled and died behind him.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

"You have to pick," Jon Snow repeated. "All of you. No one is asking you to take our vows, and I do not care what gods you worship. My own gods are the old gods, the gods of the North, but you can keep the red god, or the Seven, or any other god who hears your prayers. It's spears we need. Bows. Eyes along the Wall.

 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

She had seen enough of Robert Baratheon at Winterfell to know that the king did not regard Joffrey with any great warmth. If the boy was truly Jaime's seed, Robert would have put him to death along with his mother, and few would have condemned him. Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

Jon smelled Tom Barleycorn before he saw him. Or was it Ghost who smelled him? Of late, Jon Snow sometimes felt as if he and the direwolf were one, even awake. The great white wolf appeared first, shaking off the snow. A few moments later Tom was there. "Wildlings," he told Jon, softly. "In the grove."

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow. ["this one" also used as a turn of phrase meaning oneself, so Jon is speaking about himself]

 

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn II

He frowned. "Should I have Grey Wind sniff all my knights? There might be others whose smell he mislikes."

"Any man Grey Wind mislikes is a man I do not want close to you. These wolves are more than wolves, Robb. You must know that. I think perhaps the gods sent them to us. Your father's gods, the old gods of the north. Five wolf pups, Robb, five for five Stark children."

"Six," said Robb. "There was a wolf for Jon as well. I found them, remember? I know how many there were and where they came from. I used to think the same as you, that the wolves were our guardians, our protectors, until . . ."

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Well, like I said, nothing I can say will sway anyone from how they already feel about all of this. Truthfully, I think the conversation at large has less to do with how people feel about incest in this story and more to do with how they feel about Jon and Dany as a couple. Obviously that's not true for everyone, and I'm certainly not suggesting that of you, but I suspect that these conversations tend to be more about shipping than anything else, and there's no point in debating ships. 

I agree with you, for many people this is about the fact that they don't like Dany+Jon—although often it goes one step deeper and is rooted in either Dany-hatred, Jon-hatred, or show-hatred.

But, even ignoring those people (which is usually best), there's a whole second issue of people projecting their own cultural incest taboos onto Westeros. Westeros barely puts up with the Targs, and is disgusted with Jaime and Cersei, but has no problem with Rickard and Lyarra or Tywin and Joanna or dozens of other examples, and the reason for that is obvious. But if you consider cousin marriage to be equivalent to sister marriage, it's hard to accept that reason, and people are trying to ram a Westerosi peg into a Euro-American hole to somehow rationalize that away.

Faint seemed to be saying that those people are just confused because it's too complicated to do the math, which sounds reasonable, but I don't think that's right, because that's not how human minds work. In fact, anyone who does the math and says "Technically this pairing is closer to a 25% expected allele match than a 12.5% one, so I'm right to be disgusted" is at least likely to be rationalizing as someone who just screams "incest is bad! don't touch my Dany!"

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

That's what I was getting at before. Most of the casual viewers I know aren't very supportive of Jon and Dany's romance, or even find it all that interesting. The ones I know seem to view it more as a tragedy waiting to happen (not that there's anything wrong with a good tragic romance every now and then, of course). None of them have been saying, "well, they're not twins like Jaime and Cersei, so I'm going to make the conscious decision not to be turned off by them." Book readers tend to see it through the lens of what they've read, which includes the Targaryen history of inbreeding, but non-readers are going off of instinct, just like you said.  I'm sure there are plenty of casual viewers that love them, but this is what I've seen first-hand thus far. 

I know some of both—and a quick search around mainstream social media shows that there definitely are people who love this pairing and others who hate it.

But you're right, the ones who love it don't say "I've made a conscious decision not to be turned off by them", they just don't even think of it as incest at first. When their friends on the other side start saying "but incest!", then of course they have to start coming up with rationalizations after the fact, but that's all they are.

And of course their friends on the other side don't say "I've made a conscious decision to be turned off by them" either. They already don't like the idea of Jon+Dany, so they grab for "incest! incest!" as a way to make their position seem more unassailable, or just to rile up their friends.

And really, I don't have a problem with any of this. It's only the people who try to actually have a reasonable, but still haven't acknowledged their rationalizations for what they are, who are frustrating. You know anyone shouting "auntie-fucker!" all over the internet is just a troll, but someone who tries to make a case for why Westeros would be better off if they got rid of cousin marriage and then uses the Targaryens as an example—that's so close to having a good discussion that it's annoying that it doesn't quite get there.

Finally, I think you're getting at the point that, whatever the in-universe answer, this thread's question doesn't have a good out-of-universe answer because none of the people who care about an answer can be swayed by anything? If so, I think we're mostly in agreement.

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

maybe Jon and Sam don't judge Gilly because hmshe is a victim of awful rape and her baby has no fault. Maybe because they are good hearted as we have seen through thr show in the books. Sam and Jon don't like incest BC they dont condemn her. It's because they are good people.

Sure, but that people and religions condemning incest in this series want to see those abominations dead/punished. We see this when we see how Stannis reacts when he is informed what Gilly and her son actually are. He isn't pleased and wants them gone.

Incest isn't just something you don't do in Westeros. You put the people and their children down. And if Jon and Sam don't do that they are not really don't care all that much about incest, one way or another.

20 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I suppose that Jon might try to justify his action with being a Targaryen. But that will be a lie since he can't become a Targatyen and be happy with it at his age.

What's that supposed to mean? I don't understand that. He is 'Aegon Targaryen' in the show. Jon Snow is a lie.

20 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Of course it was not their fault since they didn't know and they might continue their relationship but there will be trouble. I don't think that Jon will embrace his Targ aide fully...never. He is the personification of the Northern values and the image of Nrd Stark. He even can't lie BC of honour as we saw.

LOL, that doesn't change who he is. 'Aegon Targaryen', not 'Jon Snow'. Unless they suppress the truth people this thing is going to have an effect on him. The world tells you who you are not you yourself. Once they start to style and treat him as a Targaryen he will become a Targaryen. 

And what on earth are Northern values and how is Jon 'the personification' of that? He had trouble remembering that Starks do their own executions and he failed to live up to his principles when he chose Arya over duty in ADwD (just as Ned did, by the way, when he chose Sansa over the truth and his (late) king in AGoT).

And he sure as hell can and does lie.

20 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

about the quotes. Actually its the other way around. People in real life and in westeros are not attracted to relatives and find the idea repulsive. That's the most normal thing by far. So maybe you should provide quotes that suggest he is not into the Northern values or when he says he is into it. I mean real quotes not subjective interpretation like the ones used to defend Jonrya.

We are actually all sexually and romantically attracted to close kin. That's what lead us to enter into sexual and romantic relationships with siblings when we don't know that they are close kin. That happens rather often in those cases where children grew up apart from each other and/or do not know that they have siblings. It is mostly a social thing that prevents you from entering into a sexual relationship with a close family member - that is why we ridiculously extend incest taboo to step- or adoptive kin or even in-laws.

Are you saying that a core part of 'Northern values' are about incest? Is being against a incest an important 'Northern value'? 

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but that people and religions condemning incest in this series want to see those abominations dead/punished. We see this when we see how Stannis reacts when he is informed what Gilly and her son actually are. He isn't pleased and wants them gone.

Incest isn't just something you don't do in Westeros. You put the people and their children down. And if Jon and Sam don't do that they are not really don't care all that much about incest, one way or another.

What's that supposed to mean? I don't understand that. He is 'Aegon Targaryen' in the show. Jon Snow is a lie.

LOL, that doesn't change who he is. 'Aegon Targaryen', not 'Jon Snow'. Unless they suppress the truth people this thing is going to have an effect on him. The world tells you who you are not you yourself. Once they start to style and treat him as a Targaryen he will become a Targaryen. 

And what on earth are Northern values and how is Jon 'the personification' of that? He had trouble remembering that Starks do their own executions and he failed to live up to his principles when he chose Arya over duty in ADwD (just as Ned did, by the way, when he chose Sansa over the truth and his (late) king in AGoT).

And he sure as hell can and does lie.

We are actually all sexually and romantically attracted to close kin. That's what lead us to enter into sexual and romantic relationships with siblings when we don't know that they are close kin. That happens rather often in those cases where children grew up apart from each other and/or do not know that they have siblings. It is mostly a social thing that prevents you from entering into a sexual relationship with a close family member - that is why we ridiculously extend incest taboo to step- or adoptive kin or even in-laws.

Are you saying that a core part of 'Northern values' are about incest? Is being against a incest an important 'Northern value'? 

"the world tells you who you are and not yourself"~~???????? Once they treat him as a Targaryrn he will become a Targaryen~~???

no, that would make the story bad literature. Jon is about his decisions in this story, not others and he wont become a Targ BC others tell him it's more likely that an rxtraterrerestrial arrives than that this happens in this show or books.

and...

"we are actually all sexually and romantically attracted to close kin"~~~?????

Nope.

[The Fattest Leech]

51 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

maybe Jon and Sam don't judge Gilly because hmshe is a victim of awful rape and her baby has no fault. Maybe because they are good hearted as we have seen through thr show in the books. Sam and Jon don't like incest BC they dont condemn her. It's because they are good people.

Yes, Gilly is a victim of the worst kind of incest, and that is enslaved rape by one's own parent. It seems fairly obvious that Sam and Jon don't judge her for that. Sam probably doesn't judge her because he is a bit of an outsider himself and was treated very poorly by his own father, so he can sympathize with Gilly. Jon was taught by his bonded/adoptive father Ned not to be an asshole. Look how Ned handles Cersei and her incest babies in the books and show. Ned knows about them, despises Cersei (she is not Gilly or in Gilly's situation) but Ned also doesn't judge the children. He advises Cersei to leave and flee to far, far away. This is all very different than Sam or Jon actually committing incest.

 

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes, Gilly is a victim of the worst kind of incest, and that is enslaved rape by one's own parent. It seems fairly obvious that Sam and Jon don't judge her for that. Sam probably doesn't judge her because he is a bit of an outsider himself and was treated very poorly by his own father, so he can sympathize with Gilly. Jon was taught by his bonded/adoptive father Ned not to be an asshole. Look how Ned handles Cersei and her incest babies in the books and show. Ned knows about them, despises Cersei (she is not Gilly or in Gilly's situation) but Ned also doesn't judge the children. He advises Cersei to leave and flee to far, far away. This is all very different than Sam or Jon actually committing incest.

 

yep poor Gilly!! She was raped! She DID NOTHING. Craster did that to her! And she is lucky to find people who loves her!

And Jon's story is about thr North, I like your quotes, him thinking of the old gods! He is 22 in the show!  If he ever acknowledges part of the Targaryen side which one would prevail Leech? I predict he will be both things Targ and Stark, but Deep in his heart he'll consider himself more a Stark, always. My prediction is based on his personality and the way good literature Works. I dont expect 180 degree twists.

oh and I love your quotes about Jon and the North! Couldn't be more clear!

oh and even Cersei knows that incest has a price in one of her quotes. I don't have it now though. Maybe you could find it/ I'm on the phone now and I don't know how to do it.

Sometimes I wonder if this is the price, for what we've done. For our sins. [The Targaryens] wed brother and sister for hundreds of years, I know. It's what Jaime and I would say to each other in our moments of doubt. It's what I told Ned Stark when he was stupid enough to confront me. Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin? 

so even Lannister twins think they are not doing something normal. A sin. Cause they are not Targs. Cause incest is not normal outside targs.

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

He is the personification of the Northern values

Why do so many fans seem to think "Northern values" means "my own personal beliefs"?

There's no evidence that Northern values on incest are any different than Southron values. Every Northerner we see is disdainful of Jaime and Cersei as everyone else, and they think nothing of Rickard and Lyarra (to the point where not a single character mentioned or thought about Lyarra being Rickard's cousin in 5 books or 7 seasons, and we only know about it because a Maester wrote up their family tree). Just like everyone else we see. If you consider cousins marrying to be incest, that's fine, but Northern values disagree with you, so there's no reason to expect Jon to agree.

Meanwhile, Ned's personal values include not punishing kids for the parents' errors, which most of us agree with—but there's clearly nothing particularly Northern about that. We just saw Sansa, and most of Jon's Northern lords, disagree with him on that.

[Newstar]

2 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Lol, what points did you bring up? All you said was "Nuh uh" George is not commenting on incest

As previously pointed out by other posters, GRRM originally planned ASOIAF to be a fictional incestuous romance involving two cousins (Jon/Arya). That destroys your argument right there and really should be the end of the discussion as to whether GRRM really intends some sort of anti-incest message with ASOIAF. Let's leave that aside for a moment, though, since I didn't mention that in the post you were commenting on.

GRRM has no horror of fictional incest and fictional incestuous romances; he's irresistibly drawn to writing about them in great length and in very explicit detail in ASOIAF and related works. In addition to the many Targ-on-Targ romances populating TWOIAF, TPATQ, etc., Jaime/Cersei is the central romantic relationship of ASOIAF (to date, since Jon and Dany haven't met yet). As I said. Quotes indicating that in universe, non-Targs take issue with incest in Westeros are irrelevant to that point. Non-Targ characters may rabbit on about how hideous incest is, but GRRM clearly doesn't give a shit when it comes to telling the story he wants to tell; incest is as much part of the fabric of his world as magic and dragons, and he treats it about the same way, even though many characters in-universe hate and mistrust magic and dragons. Many of the incestuous relationships are toxic, dysfunctional, or even abusive and result in massive collateral damage, but that's true of many of the non-incestuous relationships as well (Robert/Cersei, Tyrion/Shae, etc.). 

Those quotes don't prove anything about whether GRRM is trying to structure ASOIAF as an anti-incest parable, which again is the argument you and others have unsuccessfully tried to make. It's also doing GRRM a disservice to suggest that all he's doing with the Targs is providing a neat little parable about how Incest is Bad. Give the man some credit already.

ASOIAF and related works featuring Targ incest are not a long-form condemnation of the horrors of incest. Accordingly, claims that Jon/Dany must end horribly since it is the culmination of GRRM's supposed disgust for fictional incestuous romances are completely inaccurate. If GRRM had such a goal, GRRM ignoring the real world implications of incest and building his world around a fictional dynasty with magical, largely healthy, inhumanly beautiful people regularly practicing incest, which features prominently in the related Westeros works (TPATQ, e.g.), and making two of the three lead characters of ASOIAF and one of the two main characters of D&E healthy, beautiful, magical, and intensely sympathetic products of that fictional dynasty is probably the worst possible way to go about it.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, falcotron said:

Why do so many fans seem to think "Northern values" means "my own personal beliefs"?

There's no evidence that Northern values on incest are any different than Southron values. Every Northerner we see is disdainful of Jaime and Cersei as everyone else, and they think nothing of Rickard and Lyarra (to the point where not a single character mentioned or thought about Lyarra being Rickard's cousin in 5 books or 7 seasons, and we only know about it because a Maester wrote up their family tree). Just like everyone else we see. If you consider cousins marrying to be incest, that's fine, but Northern values disagree with you, so there's no reason to expect Jon to agree.

Meanwhile, Ned's personal values include not punishing kids for the parents' errors, which most of us agree with—but there's clearly nothing particularly Northern about that. We just saw Sansa, and most of Jon's Northern lords, disagree with him on that.

Jon is not not raised as a Targaryen. targaryebns liked incest because they are a different culture than people from Westeros. They were foreigners with their special things, like incest being normal and extremely common.

SOURCE:

One of the factors here is... the Targaryens conquered the kingdom with dragons... Then the majority of those dragons were killed... By that point the Targaryens were firmly established as the kings and had the power... that the rules didn't apply to them. Targaryens were interlopers from another culture, and they had some unique factors that didn't necessarily fit into the mainstream of the other Westerosi Lords, such as their traditional incest, which was part of keeping the bloodlines pure so that they could better control the dragons, brother marrying sister, and nephews and aunts, and so forth

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I didn't read all of the posts so sorry if I'm being repetitive but here is my take on it:

I don't think incest is a big deal in Westeros. Maybe some people frown on it but that's about the extent of it. If we look at some of the examples of incest it seems it's pretty much ok depending on the circumstances surrounding it. 

- The Targs obviously are the biggest example. They married & had incestuous relationships with each other for generations & other than Cersei using this as a justification for her & Jaime's relationship it's hardly mentioned. At least that I recall

- Jaime & Cersei: the biggest problem that occurs from this relationship is that it calls into question the legitimacy of Cersei's children. IIRC they knew Tywin would not be real happy about it either but now that all of her children & father are dead Cersei let the maid see her & Jaime & said she didn't care who saw. Also the king/her husband is dead & she rules the kingdom so I'm sure that ca me into play when she was making her decision.

-Tywin & Joanna were either 1st or 2nd cousins (I can't remember which) & their marriage was perfectly ok with everyone. (If this is a book only thing I apologize but I couldn't remember if it was mentioned in the show or not. 

- Theon & Yara this obviously was only a one time incident but Yara at least thought it was an ok "prank" to play on her brother

 -Craster & his daughter/wives. While we do get the impression people think he is a dirty old man no one does anything to stop it & I always felt like the bigger issue was that he was raping these women & forcing them to be his wives. Granted he is beyond the wall & doesn't really abide by Westerosi rules.

I honestly don't think there will be much said about the fact that Dany & Jon are aunt & nephew. The only people I could forsee having an issue with it is Jon himself. Possibly the northern lords but I don't think the subject has come up with them for us to know how they feel about it. Jon will probably have some inner turmoil about it & decide it isn't right & decide to leave her right before he finds out she is pregnant. Then he won't leave because he won't father a bastard.