Season 8 Predictions?

[Adaneth]

10 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say.

Yep. It's not clear to whom, or about who, is he speaking. This is a scene that always bugger me, for some reason.

[Faera]

1 hour ago, Caterina Sforza said:

Yep. It's not clear to whom, or about who, is he speaking. This is a scene that always bugger me, for some reason.

 

I think it is a scene that is easy to read into and nothing more. The conclusion that it is Rhaegar, Elia and their son Aegon come from the fact that he is the only son named Aegon Rhaegar has and he was his second born. Aemon tells Sam in AFfC that Rhaegar thought his son Aegon was the Prince that was Princes (and, yes, he is talking about his son with Elia without a doubt):

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"Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! ..." - Samwell IV, AFfC

 

So, it lines up with Daenerys's vision.

One thing that is clear is that Rhaegar, like Aemon, was constantly changing his mind as to who the so-called "Prince That Was Promised" was and they were both constantly trying to interpret the signs of it. Even if Rhaegar did say that his son Aegon (with Elia, ugh! I hate having to make that distinction now - stupid show!) was TPtwP and the "song of ice and fire", it only reflects what he thought at that time. He could very well have changed his mind by the time Jon was born. Heck, he almost certainly had.

All of this is moot with the show though because TPtwP doesn't seem to have come into Rhaegar backstory much at all. I think we got a nod to it from Aemon but not much more than that. He and Lyanna seem to have run off together for love -- nothing much to do with the prophecy at all.

[Adaneth]

16 hours ago, Faera said:

One thing that is clear is that Rhaegar, like Aemon, was constantly changing his mind as to who the so-called "Prince That Was Promised" was and they were both constantly trying to interpret the signs of it. Even if Rhaegar did say that his son Aegon (with Elia, ugh! I hate having to make that distinction now - stupid show!) was TPtwP and the "song of ice and fire", it only reflects what he thought at that time. He could very well have changed his mind by the time Jon was born. Heck, he almost certainly had.

All of this is moot with the show though because TPtwP doesn't seem to have come into Rhaegar backstory much at all. I think we got a nod to it from Aemon but not much more than that. He and Lyanna seem to have run off together for love -- nothing much to do with the prophecy at all.

Yeah, they do not mention TPtwP in the show, when it comes to Aemon and Rhaegar. They do mention for Jon and Dany though. Melisandre thinks is Jon, Kinvara thinks it's Dany.

Now in the show, they never showed that part of Dany's vision (and other parts as well) but the name Aegon for Jon is a bit strange. If this is GRRM idea, then, I'm thinking it is possible that Rhaegar is speaking to Lyanna and not Elia. One of the reasons is also cause when he's speaking about his son, it is clear for Dany that he's speaking to the woman. But when he says "there must be one more", she isn't sure to whom is he speaking to. To the woman in bed or to Dany? I find it interesting that she isn't able to tell that part. But it might be very well a ref. to Jon, and since his parentage is still a mystery in the books, that's why that part is ambiguous as well.

Regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna. I actually do not believe he took her cause he was obsessed with the prophecy. I do believe it was love, simple as that. GRRM himslef called him a love struck prince. 

p.s. I will always call him Jon. 

 

[jcmontea]

3 hours ago, Caterina Sforza said:

Yeah, they do not mention TPtwP in the show, when it comes to Aemon and Rhaegar. They do mention for Jon and Dany though. Melisandre thinks is Jon, Kinvara thinks it's Dany.

Now in the show, they never showed that part of Dany's vision (and other parts as well) but the name Aegon for Jon is a bit strange. If this is GRRM idea, then, I'm thinking it is possible that Rhaegar is speaking to Lyanna and not Elia. One of the reasons is also cause when he's speaking about his son, it is clear for Dany that he's speaking to the woman. But when he says "there must be one more", she isn't sure to whom is he speaking to. To the woman in bed or to Dany? I find it interesting that she isn't able to tell that part. But it might be very well a ref. to Jon, and since his parentage is still a mystery in the books, that's why that part is ambiguous as well.

Regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna. I actually do not believe he took her cause he was obsessed with the prophecy. I do believe it was love, simple as that. GRRM himslef called him a love struck prince. 

p.s. I will always call him Jon. 

 

My own tinfoil is that in that moment we are meant to think its Rhegar talking to Elia. But when we learn Jon’s real name we realize that the scene works as a vision of a conversation a fake Rhaegar is having with a fake Lyana about their son Ae(j)on, whose song will be a song of ice and fire, but there must be another (dany) who he looks at and the dragon must have three heads (new targ baby).  

Of course. We will find out if thats true or not in 2050 when ADOS comes out

[Adaneth]

19 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

My own tinfoil is that in that moment we are meant to think its Rhegar talking to Elia. But when we learn Jon’s real name we realize that the scene works as a vision of a conversation a fake Rhaegar is having with a fake Lyana about their son Ae(j)on, whose song will be a song of ice and fire, but there must be another (dany) who he looks at and the dragon must have three heads (new targ baby).  

Of course. We will find out if thats true or not in 2050 when ADOS comes out

That's exactly what I've been thinking since the name was revealed in the show. You explained that much better. 

[Faera]

33 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

My own tinfoil is that in that moment we are meant to think its Rhegar talking to Elia. But when we learn Jon’s real name we realize that the scene works as a vision of a conversation a fake Rhaegar is having with a fake Lyana about their son Ae(j)on, whose song will be a song of ice and fire, but there must be another (dany) who he looks at and the dragon must have three heads (new targ baby).  

Of course. We will find out if thats true or not in 2050 when ADOS comes out

That... is a really good point that I feel silly for not thinking of it myself, aha!

After all, Dany was told by Pyat Pree,

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"...Other doors may open to you. Within, you will see many things that disturb you. Visions of loveliness and visions of horror, wonders and terrors. Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were. Dwellers and servitors may speak to you as you go. Answer or ignore them as you choose, but enter no room until you reach the audience chamber."

So, if Jon's name really is supposed to be Aegon (or Aejon, as you called him!) what Dany might have seen was a version of Rhaegar and Lyanna in an alternate reality where he won the Battle of the Trident and was able to return to witness the birth of his son. I don't think this will be the case but it is certainly worth considering. As for who Rhaegar was talking to, since the visions are supposed to be able to communicate with Rhaegar, that last bit might have been for her benefit. Maybe she was always supposed to be the third head?

[Adaneth]

5 minutes ago, Faera said:

So, if Jon's name really is supposed to be Aegon (or Aejon, as you called him!) what Dany might have seen was a version of Rhaegar and Lyanna in a version of reality where he won the Battle of the Trident and was able to return to Lyanna to witness the birth of his son.

That is the only thing that doesn't quite sound "right" with this theory. Lets just say it is a bit far fetched. But it does fit well with "days that never were". 

[Faera]

2 hours ago, Caterina Sforza said:

That is the only thing that doesn't quite sound "right" with this theory. Lets just say it is a bit far fetched. But it does fit well with "days that never were". 

I don't believe it myself. I think it is just Rhaegar and Elia, but it's the only way I could see it being Lyanna is if it was a "days that never were" moment rather than a shadow of the past.

[jcmontea]

30 minutes ago, Faera said:

I don't believe it myself. I think it is just Rhaegar and Elia, but it's the only way I could see it being Lyanna is if it was a "days that never were" moment rather than a shadow of the past.

I almost think it makes more sense as a days that never were vision.

For two reasons. 1.) why would aegon son of elia’s song be the song of ice and fire? What would a tagaryen with a dornish mom have to do with any of the ice imagery and symbolism of the series? 

2.) Rheagar winning at the Trident and becoming King was the great day that never was. The greatest man Baristan ever knew becoming King and having 25 years to prepare the Kingdom with his son Aegon and his sister Daenerys for the threat of the others instead of all the bloodletting and civil wars we got. 

[Adaneth]

Yep. I have to say, I like that. @jcmontea

[Faera]

1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

I almost think it makes more sense as a days that never were vision.

For two reasons. 1.) why would aegon son of elia’s song be the song of ice and fire? What would a tagaryen with a dornish mom have to do with any of the ice imagery and symbolism of the series? 

2.) Rheagar winning at the Trident and becoming King was the great day that never was. The greatest man Baristan ever knew becoming King and having 25 years to prepare the Kingdom with his son Aegon and his sister Daenerys for the threat of the others instead of all the bloodletting and civil wars we got. 

My issue with it is that it still results in Rhaegar having two sons named Aegon. As good ol' Preston put it, "So, the three heads of the dragon were going to be Rhaenys, Aegon and Aegon. Rhaenys was going to have to go around saying, 'Hi, I'm Rhaenys! This is my brother, Aegon, and this is my other brother, Aegon.'" It just doesn't work. Even if you want to argue that Daenerys was supposed to be a head of the dragon - i.e. the third head - who was the first, if JonGon was presumably the second? Was it Aegon or Rhaenys? They presumably would have lived in this version of reality. Again, it doesn't completely work.

As for why Rhaegar thought his son with Elia might be TSoIaF... again, we don't even know what "A Song of Ice and Fire" even refers to in this context or how he might have been interpreting it at that given time. The trouble with the whole presumption many of us have about Starks representing Ice in the "song" is that it is easy to forget the other direct uses of the phrase "ice and fire" within the books. The most obvious example being the Reeds' oath, where it seems to essentially be a poetic way of saying "We swear by everything", or when Bran and Davos each separately use it as a "night and day" analogy. Rhaegar could have been presuming either of these notions or another entirely... only later he could have changed his mind.

[jcmontea]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

My issue with it is that it still results in Rhaegar having two sons named Aegon. As good ol' Preston put it, "So, the three heads of the dragon were going to be Rhaenys, Aegon and Aegon. Rhaenys was going to have to go around saying, 'Hi, I'm Rhaenys! This is my brother, Aegon, and this is my other brother, Aegon.'" It just doesn't work. Even if you want to argue that Daenerys was supposed to be a head of the dragon - i.e. the third head - who was the first, if JonGon was presumably the second? Was it Aegon or Rhaenys? They presumably would have lived in this version of reality. Again, it doesn't completely work.

It does depend on Jon’s real name being Aegon that is true.

But if good old Preston says it doesn’t make sense than I think its more likely to be true. 

I do think there are explanations though that make sense even if it is weird to give two of your sons the same name. Also, seems fitting that the real name of the main character in the story would be Aegon Targaryen. 

 

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

6 hours ago, jcmontea said:

and the dragon must have three heads (new targ baby).  

What would be his/her purpose? The future of House Targaryen, the union of ice and fire, maybe something to do with the war for the dawn? How many kids do you think they will have?  Do you think Jon and Dany will both survive the series? It's a genuine question....

That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl." - ADWD

I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. - ASOS

[jcmontea]

18 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

What would be his/her purpose? The future of House Targaryen, the union of ice and fire, maybe something to do with the war for the dawn? How many kids do you think they will have?  It's a genuine question....

That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl." - ADWD

I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. - ASOS

Not really sure. I think the purpose could be as simple as Jon and Dany fulfilling their desire for a kid of their own (those are great quotes) to something more magical or political.

This is one area where the tv show will probably give us an important clue in season 8.

[Adaneth]

14 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

 Do you think Jon and Dany will both survive the series? It's a genuine question....

I don't think so. Not both of them anyway and after the talk that Jon and Beric had in episode 6, I'm inclined towards Jon dying. 

p.s. @all: I have a question regarding "The Door" episode in season 6. Can I make it here peeps or is it consider a spoiler? I'm sure it has been discussed somewhere but I wasn't here and it's kinda bothering me. lol

[jcmontea]

14 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

  Do you think Jon and Dany will both survive the series? It's a genuine question....

60% they both survive. 40% one dies. 10% they both die is where i tend to fall. You?

15 minutes ago, Caterina Sforza said:

I don't think so. Not both of them anyway and after the talk that Jon and Beric had in episode 6, I'm inclined towards Jon dying. 

p.s. @all: I have a question regarding "The Door" episode in season 6. Can I make it here peeps or is it consider a spoiler? I'm sure it has been discussed somewhere but I wasn't here and it's kinda bothering me. lol

Sure

[Adaneth]

47 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Sure

Thanks.

Okay, so I've been watching many videos on youtube (explanations and reaction videos) and I'm so puzzled with why so many fans say “Bran f...ed up Hodor”? 

Not that I am a genius or smth but I strongly disagree. The way I saw the scene was the following:  Bran warged into Hodor (and only when the 3-Eyed Raven told him “listen to your friends”) way before Wyly (young Hodor) saw him in the vision and started to have the seizure. That’s because Bran did not warg (I'll use the term warged/wargs here) into Wyly but Hodor. In fact, Wyly is perfectly normal till the moment of "the door" arrives, which is the moment of his death. From the moment that Bran wargs into Hodor till the moment that Wyly has the seizure, time passes. Hodor had killed some wights, Summer had been killed, Bloodraven, Leaf also killed. This is all happening while Bran is into Hodor but Wyly is perfectly normal still. What happened is that we’re witnessing, through Bran’s vision/eyes, the moment that Wyly had the vision of his death. But it didn’t happen cause Bran warged into him back then, or during the vision. Bran in the vision is used as a tool for us to see what happened back then. Bran didn’t do anything to Wyly. He wasn’t even borned yet. It was Wyly/Hodor’s destiny, and it was already written. Sigh! What’s morally questionable with Bran’s action is skinchanging into a human being. But that’s a totally different discussion and it's one of the reasons I find Bran's journey very interesting. It has nothing to do with this very moment though. Bran had already done it (skinchanging) different times before. After all, hardly anyone - let alone an unexperienced young boy - wouldn’t use all his powers when in danger. The survival instinct is very strong. Not to mention that Hodor would've died anyway (many times before this moment actually) cause he wouldn've moved a finger to defend himself or the others (it simply wasn't in his nature to use his strength) if Bran was not warged into him. So, blaming Bran for that, when he had no idea what was about to happen anyway, is a bit hypocritical no? Anyway, I've seen many people not quite getting what as happening in that scene. I didn't at first viewing either, but at the second one I thought it was pretty clear. Am I wrong, did I miss smth?

[Faera]

18 hours ago, jcmontea said:

But if good old Preston says it doesn’t make sense than I think its more likely to be true. 

 

Ordinarily, yes, but his quote was more a method to reinforce how ridiculous it is that Rhaegar would have planned to have two living sons with the name Aegon. It's why, if it is true, I can only presume it was Lyanna chose the name for some reason.

 

18 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I do think there are explanations though that make sense even if it is weird to give two of your sons the same name. Also, seems fitting that the real name of the main character in the story would be Aegon Targaryen. 

 

I don't think it matters at all, personally. #HisNameWillAlwaysBeJonSnow 

 

17 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

What would be his/her purpose? The future of House Targaryen, the union of ice and fire, maybe something to do with the war for the dawn? How many kids do you think they will have?  Do you think Jon and Dany will both survive the series? It's a genuine question....

That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl." - ADWD

I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. - ASOS

Edited 10 hours ago by TRILOGY

Twins!

I think they probably will survive though I wouldn't be surprised if one of them dies.

[Faera]

2 hours ago, Caterina Sforza said:

Not that I am a genius or smth but I strongly disagree. The way I saw the scene was the following:  Bran warged into Hodor (and only when the 3-Eyed Raven told him “listen to your friends”) way before Wyly (young Hodor) saw him in the vision and started to have the seizure. That’s because Bran did not warg (I'll use the term warged/wargs here) into Wyly but Hodor. In fact, Wyly is perfectly normal till the moment of "the door" arrives, which is the moment of his death. From the moment that Bran wargs into Hodor till the moment that Wyly has the seizure, time passes. Hodor had killed some wights, Summer had been killed, Bloodraven, Leaf also killed. This is all happening while Bran is into Hodor but Wyly is perfectly normal still. What happened is that we’re witnessing, through Bran’s vision/eyes, the moment that Wyly had the vision of his death. But it didn’t happen cause Bran warged into him back then, or during the vision. Bran in the vision is used as a tool for us to see what happened back then. Bran didn’t do anything to Wyly. He wasn’t even borned yet. It was Wyly/Hodor’s destiny, and it was already written.

6

It does bring in the question of predestination since Hodor was Hodor before Bran was born but it only happened because Bran created that link between the past and the present. The presumption is that all his life, Hodor - or Wylls - was left permanently scarred and traumatised has by the sound of Meera's voice crying, "Hold the door!" and foreseeing his own death. Yet, he never showed any fear or dislike for either of Bran or Meera, the two people who supposedly ruined his life. He's frightened of Bran in the books, not so much in the show, because of his skinchanging him so often but seems to be friendly with Meera in both (obviously, we can't rule out the possibility of someone else being the "Hold the door!" crier in the books but I digress).

I have always found the scene in 'The Door' really confusing because it is never made clear when and where Bran stopped skinchanging Hodor. First time I saw it, I thought what Bran had accidentally done is turned Hodor into Wylls because we never actually see Bran skinchanging into Wylls even though we do see the eyes thing. Also, I could never work out how exactly Bran was supposed to be still in the vision of the past while also carrying his body away and then holding the door. We see that Bran is still seeing the past, and looking around, while supposedly holding the door as Hodor. Ergo, the holding of the door must have been Hodor off his own back.

The only way I could reason my way through it was that Bran was not skinchanging Hodor the whole time. If anything, I think it is a lot more interesting if Bran simply created the mental link between Wylls of the past and Hodor. Those last moments of the episode - it seemed clear to me that Bran had lost control of the matter. He was not holding the door through Hodor -- Hodor was holding that door himself. Wylls hears Meera through Bran so clearly because of the link Bran has created between the two. It is not unlike those moments in the books where Theon seems to overhear things Bran is hearing when Bran is presumably skinchanging Winterfell's Heart Tree.

[jcmontea]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

Ordinarily, yes, but his quote was more a method to reinforce how ridiculous it is that Rhaegar would have planned to have two living sons with the name Aegon. It's why, if it is true, I can only presume it was Lyanna chose the name for some reason.

It is weird for sure. Even weirder than Rhaenyra naming her eldest with Daemon Aegon even though Alicent already had an Aegon. 

Had they both lived it would have been another Aegon the Elder and Aegon the Younger situation. 

Elia probably would have taken it for a slight as Alicent did and who knows maybe it was. 

As I write that I cannot help but think its weird that the first dance of the dragons revolved around a Rhaenrya and two Aegons and we might get a second dance of the dragons and you have a Daenerys and possibly two Aegons on the board (assuming Jon’s name is the same as the books)

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I don't think it matters at all, personally. #HisNameWillAlwaysBeJonSnow 

I think it is more likely than not he does not take the name Aegon Targaryen. He might change his last name for political reasons though. 

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Twins!

I think they probably will survive though I wouldn't be surprised if one of them dies.

Agree