Season 8 Predictions?

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Fine.  you're still wrong then.  If you are basing your conclusion on the events of episode 1-4, you can't support a conclusion that them having an intimate encounter at the end of episode 7 is rushed, no matter how you interpret those scenes.

Also, Davos alludes to "longing glances" from Jon to Dany.  That's a clue that maybe there's stuff going on off-screen where the three of them are present or that the scenes that are shown have a more subtext than you are acknowledging.  I know, I know, "bad writing". 

As for showing more regard for Jon than Jorah, maybe she doesn't have time to respond before the conversation continues? Maybe she knows how determined Jorah can be when it comes to serving her and she doesn't want to get into an argument in the middle of a council meeting? Maybe she doesn't want them both to go?  Maybe she is developing feeling for the king in the north at that point?  Maybe these characters aren't robots.

of course I can. If by epi 4 they are not even friends they cant visibly become believable soulmate lovers just with a couple of scenes and she rescuing him for his stupid idea (she implies it was a silly idea of brave men) but maybe she just falls in live with men who bend the knee and he finally does.

of course Dany doesnt want any of them to go there but she is extremely more concerned about Jon, as if she was in love with him and it is not consistent with the previous scenes unless we see them as romantic. And I don't.

[Meera of Tarth]

oh and Davos about off screen Jonerys makes it even worse. We are told about it as I said. Good romance doesnt need that.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

 

• The scene in which Dany gives Jon the dragonglass. The scene shows zero romantic signs, in fact it's about about she following Tyrion's advice, they barely talk to develop something romantic. BUT Dany gives him a secret long gaze..

Uh, huh.  Either there are "zero romantic signs" or Dany gives him a secret long gaze.  It can't be both.

Quote

Summary until episode4: Jon has met a girl who is as stubborn as him, very beautiful, and very different from him. His main purpose has been achieved since she says OK to dragonglass, so he could start developing a relationship of trust and possibly friendship with her. Possibly sexual attraction at first sight. Dany doesn't like Jon at all, he refuses to bend the knee but later in one scene she discovers that his goal is noble, so she can start seeing at him as someone not to despise. She starts to understand him. Possible sexual attraction at first sight given the forced signs. No romance at all. Shared experiences? A cave. Time? A few days at most just three scenes, and they are not even friends in those three.

Wrong.  Their shared experiences are their meeting in the throne room, the causeway (with the longing gaze) and the cave and the beach.  And, as I said before, the conversation with Davos suggests other off-screen encounters.

Is the Throne room scene "romantic? No, but there is definitely an energy there.  Remember that the Rob/Tallisa romance was a bit adversarial at first; or was that rushed too? 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

20 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

oh and Davos about off screen Jonerys makes it even worse. We are told about it as I said. Good romance doesnt need that.

No, according to you it needs an on-screen first kiss, which is much more better apparently.

[jcmontea]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

a king or queen doesnt need to marry another monarch, and Dany doesnt see Jon as a king either.

mirror each other but still you fail to see the HUGE incompatibilities in their personalities.

written to be soul mates?since the beginning of the story? It's like we are reading a different series. Meeting yes, soul mates for destiny no....

Ok. We will see what happens next year and who was right. 

But you should watch this video. Its all fairly clear.

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

55 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

oh and Davos about off screen Jonerys makes it even worse. We are told about it as I said. Good romance doesnt need that.

No it doesn't. So there.

Which characters in this series don't have off screen encounters?  Is it bad writing that we didn't see the totality of Dany and Jorah trekking through the red waste? How about every conversation between Jon and Ygritte on their way from the fist of the first men to cave where they made love? Did they just plod along like mute robots or was there something more? Why would that even be a question?

[TheSlayerofLies]

58 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

a king or queen doesnt need to marry another monarch, and Dany doesnt see Jon as a king either.

She does see Jon as a King though..  Sure in their first meeting she refers to him as "lord" but in private, when Tyrion mentions the dragonglass she calls him the KiTN.

Quote

And what does the King in the North want with Dragonglass?

- 7x03

Then in 7x04, in the cave scene she calls him a king.

Quote

They will if their King does.  (about following a southern ruler)

She doesn't call him a king in 7x05, but when Dany didn't want him going on the Wight Hunt, Jon asserts that he is in fact a king.

Quote

With respect your grace, I don't need your permission.  I am a king.

And Dany doesn't take issue with that statement.

When Jon decides to bend the knee in 7x06, Dany's immediate response is 

Quote

What about those who swore allegiance to you?

And finally in 7x07, when Cersei tells Jon not take up arms against the Lannister's, Dany responses by asking 

Quote

Just the King in the North? Not me?

So while Jon technically may have bent the knee, she respects his leadership and sees him as an equal.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

i took evidence 1 as more as another forced moment for the romance, but you could be right.

evidence 2? What do you mean by #epic boatsex cast commentary? I saw the cast being disgusted for the incest thing, I don't know if you are referring to this one, fo they say ice and fire again? Then it's. Interesting, though I very much think that the title might mean more things than just people, maybe forces and possibly more than just one or two people involved.

evidence 3: Partnership in some form? Totally. We all know that they will meet. But that's not evidence on the title of the series being solely about them, just hints on the plot -them meeting-as complete evidence.

@The Fattest Leech wasn't the commentary also about converging plot lines?

Yup. The word converge/converging was used twice in that interview, however, shippers only focused on the one "converge" and took it to mean sex, instead of, ya know, the actual definition. The article also talked about many other storylines converging, which I guess selectively doesn't mean sex and relationship.

Also, the books and the show are different. GRRM talked about this while in Helsinki last month. In the books it is planned for Daenerys and Jon to "converge" on the Trident, which would be a battle against each other.

Also, some people need to remember that HBO went to D&D and gave them the books to "adapt". D&D had no idea what these books were about, and they certainly were not such fans that they came up with idea of making the series into a show because they lurved it to bits and were real keen on dissecting the clues hidden within the prose to solve mysteries. Nope. It was a job to them.

And I just want to add that season 7 had the characters still acting book parts that come from other book characters. What we saw on screen was NOT what is planned for Jon and Dany in the books at all. It physically and geographically and logistically cannot happen.

Dany played Aegon for the first part of S7. They even had Jorah do a shortened version of Jon Connington along with Aegon (fAegon). Then Dany went on to play another female character that is not Daenerys by any means.

Jon played Arianne in her TWOW chapters in S7. Then Jon went backwards and started re-playing his own book-Jon arc in ADWD (before the mutiny) when he started working with the free folk and integrating them in to the North and garrisoning castles along the wall with free folk people, etc.

Oh, also adding, the whole concept of Jon (or anyone) mining dragonglass from Dragonstone comes from the Stannis plot when he has Rolland Storm stay behind and do JUST that same thing. THIS IS NOT A JON PLOT!

The "Night King" played Quentyn in the dragonpit scene under the pyramid (yes, the show recycled half of that plot) when they had the NK take Viserion:

They turned the Night King into Quentyn Martell

• "More meat," Quentyn said. Once the beasts were fed they will become sluggish. He had seen it work with snakes in Dorne, but here, with these monsters … "Bring … bring …"
  Viserion launched himself from the ceiling, pale leather wings unfolding, spreading wide. The broken chain dangling from his neck swung wildly. His flame lit the pit, pale gold shot through with red and orange, and the stale air exploded in a cloud of hot ash and sulfur as the white wings beat and beat again.
  A hand seized Quentyn by the shoulder. The torch spun from his grip to bounce across the floor, then tumbled into the pit, still burning. He found himself face-to-face with a brass ape. Gerris. "Quent, this will not work. They are too wild, they …"
• Quentyn heard the sellswords shouting. Caggo was calling for the chains, and Pretty Meris was screaming at someone to step aside. The dragon moved awkwardly on the ground, like a man scrabbling on his knees and elbows, but quicker than the Dornish prince would have believed. When the Windblown were too late to get out of his way, Viserion let loose with another roar. Quentyn heard the rattle of chains, the deep thrum of a crossbow.

  "No," he screamed, "no, don't, don't," but it was too late. The fool was all that he had time to think as the quarrel caromed off Viserion's neck to vanish in the gloom. A line of fire gleamed in its wake—dragon's blood, glowing gold and red.

...and the Plotzee! continues...

[jcmontea]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yup. The word converge/converging was used twice in that interview, however, shippers only focused on the one "converge" and took it to mean sex, instead of, ya know, the actual definition. The article also talked about many other storylines converging, which I guess selectively doesn't mean sex and relationship.

Also, the books and the show are different. GRRM talked about this while in Helsinki last month. In the books it is planned for Daenerys and Jon to "converge" on the Trident, which would be a battle.

Also, some people need to remember that HBO went to D&D and gave them the books to "adapt". D&D had no idea what these books were about, and they certainly were not such fans that they came up with idea of making the series into a show because they lurved it to bits and were real keen on dissecting the clues hidden within the prose to solve mysteries. Nope. It was a job to them.

Evidence?

[jcmontea]

20 minutes ago, TheSlayerofLies said:

She does see Jon as a King though..  Sure in their first meeting she refers to him as "lord" but in private, when Tyrion mentions the dragonglass she calls him the KiTN.

Then in 7x04, in the cave scene she calls him a king.

She doesn't call him a king in 7x05, but when Dany didn't want him going on the Wight Hunt, Jon asserts that he is in fact a king.

And Dany doesn't take issue with that statement.

When Jon decides to bend the knee in 7x06, Dany's immediate response is 

And finally in 7x07, when Cersei tells Jon not take up arms against the Lannister's, Dany responses by asking 

So while Jon technically may have bent the knee, she respects his leadership and sees him as an equal.

Great analysis.

[The Fattest Leech]

13 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Evidence?

The article mentioned and the books themselves. Oh, and the SSM where George and D&D are in a bookstore doing an interview and they talk about how HBO gave them the books to read for the job.

(Have you read the books? Do you remember Dany's prophetic dreams?)

[MinscS2]

6 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

 

No, I don't ignore the "buildup". It's just that I don't consider that "that" should be called this way for reasons. In fact, I knew what would happen because I had read spoilers so I even payed more attention to how it would be developed and looked for more signs than if I didn't know it would happen.

And after having seen s7 and having rewwatched until episode 4 (included) I can confirm that I have seen no buildup that could be considered romantic.

Perhaps you shouldn't stop looking for buildup in episode 4, unless you do that because it fits your thesis that is?
Their buildup continues (and rapidly) in episode 5, and 6.

Looking for details, though the only things for "romance" are:

• Jonerys theme-> themes are used in romantic stories, but not until something has been developed between the characters. It's after the previous story whehn we start listening to themes in typical TV, even in this show. So that's a forced romantic sign because it happens since the very beginning (Dany giving the dragonglass to Jon).
  Can't certain characters have a common theme in their second scene together without it being forced?
• Missandei talking about Missworm just before Jon appears. Also, a forced external sign to remind the audience that Dany might be looking for romance as well, and, so conveniently, Jon appears. Forced again.
  You're misstaken "forced" for "hints". You can't claim that the show lacks hints of them ending up, just because you refuse to see the hints as actual hints, and instead consider it "forced".
• Davos' speech in the same epi. Another person reminding us that we should be looking at Jonerys with romantic eyes.
  That speech fills two purposes: 1) To make us (the audience) know that other characters are noticing the way Jon (and Daenerys) are looking at each other and 2) To hammer home the fact that they are looking at each other to the part of the audience that can't see a romantic development even if it stripped naked and danced in front of them.
• The scene in which Dany gives Jon the dragonglass. The scene shows zero romantic signs, in fact it's about about she following Tyrion's advice, they barely talk to develop something romantic. BUT Dany gives him a secret long gaze.. I suppose you were referring to that. . So, while it could be a first TV sign of pre-romance (even if she is obviously not in love with him) if it had to be developed in the future (with much more episodes) that's not how the story progressed. In fact, She can't be feeling anythigng but sexual attraction. There can't be romantic tension there because they have seen eachother just once and to develop a romance characters need to have spend time and shared experiences. It doesn't apply to Jonerys here
  I didn't interpret the gaze she gives Jon after that scene as one of sexual attraction (maybe it is), but as one of curiosity and intrigue, since the only other person she has ever heard "didn't like something he was good at (killing)" was Rhaegar, her brother that she idolizes and wished she had known. I personally don't think their actual romance starts to develop until episode 4 (but mostly 5 and 6).
• Caves. Here is where she starts understanding that Jon might be right, so it could be the start of a friendship. I can't argue against that. Too bad that possibly tehey used Jon's hand touching Dany to suggest he is deeply in love with her and she is in love with him because she decides he has to bend the knee. Seriously.
  They are quite clearly friends, or at the very least friendly to each other in episode 4. The fact that Dany tells her bodyguards to stand down while she follows Jon into the cave unguarded says it all. Perhaps she doesn't trust everything she says, but she trusts him enough to know that he won't try to harm her by this point. 
  I'm also not sure why you're against the hand holding. Would them kissing on the boat be better and less cliche?

Summary until episode4: Jon has met a girl who is as stubborn as him, very beautiful, and very different from him. His main purpose has been achieved since she says OK to dragonglass, so he could start developing a relationship of trust and possibly friendship with her. Possibly sexual attraction at first sight. Dany doesn't like Jon at all, he refuses to bend the knee but later in one scene she discovers that his goal is noble, so she can start seeing at him as someone not to despise. She starts to understand him. Possible sexual attraction at first sight given the forced signs. No romance at all. Shared experiences? A cave. Time? A few days at most just three scenes, and they are not even friends in those three.

Very different, but also very similar. I can give you a list of things they share and that both would find appealing about the other if you want. (Not just shared experiences, but also shared ideals, morals, etc.)
You're super-wrong about Dany not liking Jon at all though, the fact that he's defiant but respectful is something she's unfamiliar with, and is one of the reasons she eventually falls for him. She's used to people either submitting to her instantly, or turning hostile. Jon did neither. If Jon had bent the knee right there and then in episode 3, they wouldn't end up falling in love.

Also, surely you are smart enough to realize that more than a few days has passed between their first encounter and the cave scene right? 1 season is one year long. It would be weeks between those scenes.

So until episode 4 there's no romance, not even friendship there, just starting to understand each other as two strangers. 

That's your interpretation. My interpretation is that by the end of episode 4, they are friends, and there's a burgeoning romance. 
The fact that they where starting to be attracted to each other in episode 4 was even mentioned by D&D.
Now you might not see it (or like it), but when D&D says it, Davos comments on it, and many viewers can see it, then perhaps there's actually something too it?

The show gives us 2 forced signs (Davos and Missandei), Jonerys bittersweet/romantic theme (it's subjective) and Jon touching Dany as a possible badly written sign of "they will be in love soon", and a forced badly written scene of Dany possbly looking at Jon because we are forced to believe she is starting to feel in love with him after one scene in which she meets him and doesn't want to bend the knee. So NO romance at all until episode 4.

Again, their romance picks up speed in episode 5 and 6. If they started kissing already in episode 4, you would complain about that instead.

From these, we have what? OK, 3 intimate scenes after crucial moments (boat, exhibition and boatsex), but before those 3 scenes IIRC there are only two or three scenes which are:

-Dany being worried about Jon bc he will go to the wight hunt (more worried than with Jorah, which is totally inconsistent with the writting, unless they are forcing us to see it as that "she is in love with him", which can't be applied since their first scenes before that can't develop anything more than a friendship, sexual curiosity or, even some mystery...but not "falling in love". 

Her being more worried about Jon than Jorah isn't really that inconsistent.
She loves Jorah as a guardian and a friend, but by this point she loves Jon a potential romantic partner.
She is also probably full of oxytocin which prevents her from thinking rationally when Jon suddenly announces that he's gonna go on a suicide-mission. She's afraid of loosing him at this point, and it's logical that she is. 

-Jon is a Targ, likes dragons. That's about Jon, not Jonerys. Again, nothing romantic. friendship? Yes, I could see the development of it bc he likes her dragon.

There's also much more to the Jon-pets-Drogon scene than you seem to realize. This is not just about Jon and Drogon, it's very much about Jon being the first person ever except Daenerys that Drogon allows to come near. You can see Daenerys befuddlement, amazement and then how her initial worry ("what's Drogon doing to Jon?") instead turns into open attraction towards Jon ("what IS Jon doing!?"). This is also something that was clarified in an inside-the-episode by Emilia Clarke. Daenerys was extremely attracted by the fact that Jon and Drogon got along.

-Dany saying goodbye to Jon.

You missed the crucial scenes of Daenerys flying to the rescue. There's no actual speaking between them in this scene, but their actions speak for themselves. You can see how Jon is amazed and proud over the fact that Dany came for them. It's one of the reasons he bends the knee the next time they see each other, she proved herself to him by actually (ironically) being a hero and not just a name, which is then juxtaposed by Dany seeing Jon's scars and realizing that he is in fact willing to die for the people he cares about.

I might have missed something/changed the order, in that case, I apologise since I'm not fan of the ship, but fortunately, I am still trying to be consistent with what I call a TV show romance.

So your handholding+intimate moments are those two scenes after these two other events, and these prior events are followed up by other scenes that indicate ZERO romantic development, so the story is forced and badly written as a romance..

I abhor them for that, but don't judge by the rest of the post but for the whole thing. Incest is not the main issue  with that relationship.

This is your interpretation. The fact that you leave out episode 5 and 6 when discussing their romantic development makes me doubt your sincerity though. 

I mentioned lots of things about why I don't like it and incest is important, but since they don't know they are related, if the romance was good (like other ones just like Jaime and Brienne) I'd not ship it, but I'd not be against it. The fact is that, is extremely badly done, rushed and I don't like to be told that I'm watching a "romance".

My dislike is subjective, but I say objective facts.

Hah! I hope you're not referring to this post, full of your personal interpretations as "objective facts".
An objective fact is Jon and Dany being in love in episode 7. Claiming that the romance and it's development is badly written and that you don't buy/feel it is not an objective fact, but a subjective opinion.

The romance in terms of development has plotholes, as I explained in the first paragaph of this reply (you can't be in love with someoene after two scenes and just one "shared" experience in a cave). For the pacing od a TV show, it's rushed.

Yes you can actually, but I don't think they are in love in episode 4, as I stated. Attracted and interested? Yes. In love? No.

Remember that both Jon and Dany try to repress their feelings for each other, and refuse to act on those feelings due to reasons I don't think I have to spell out. This makes it harder to know when they actually went from "attraction" to "love".

I'd say that Daenerys loves Jon when he leaves for the north in episode 5, because that's the first time that she's open to him about how she likes him. He doesn't reciprocate however, so the "Jon doesn't love me"-scene she had with Tyrion in episode 6 makes sense, she actually didn't believe that he did by that point. 
Jon caves in on the boat in episode 6, he's seen Daenerys in action now and she's everything he hoped she would be. The way he grabs her hand and holds on when she want's to let go is a clear hint of his feelings for her. We know it's mutual but she's distraught by Viserions death so she (rightfully) forces herself to leave.

You said you wanted a "first kiss" between them in another post; if Jon and Dany's relationship had developed like any other relationship where both parts can be open to each other about their feelings, and act on those feelings,  Jon and Dany would've kissed either on the boat in episode 6 or when Jon leaves in episode 5.
 

I discussed why I think it's forced, explaining the scenes in particular.

I also liked how they relationship progressedin terms of shared connection  (from being strangers to Dany understanding his motives) for instance, but I can't believe they are in love and the fact that they forced it destroyed any credibility in it as a romance. 

No, I wouldn't either if I stopped watching after episode 4...

I would not ship it eitherway, but it would have been a better story if they had met earlier, shared a story together and they had pushed the thing for season 8. However, I also think the main reason they did that was because it might be doomed and they don't want us to be investe din it, but I could be wrong and it just be bad writing and not something more apart from it.

I would have wanted more scenes between them as well, but I can understand why it wasn't possible due to how the season was built with only 7 episodes.
Something a lot of people who are against their relationship seem to miss however, is that Jon and Dany have known each other for more than half a season (episode 3-7 out of 7), which means that by the time they have #boatsex, they have known each other for over half a year. Rushed in terms of scenes together? Debatable. Rushed in terms of actual time spent together? No, not by a longshot.

 

4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

If that's scientifically correct, let's believe it. I just don't see it more than sexual attraction. They have had no time to fall for each other, they don't know each other, just some things. Frankly, Jon can't love a woman whose priority is to make him submit the North and he might like to discover that she doens't want to burn people alive and destroy KL, butl later she actually burns people! after she asking him what to do....she does the contrary. How does that make her his equal?

Jon told her to not burn castles and cities. He didn't tell her that she couldn't burn soldiers in wartime.
He's also visibly unsure about her killing Lannister/Tarly-soldiers when she returns in episode 5, but she justifies it with the "how many soldiers did your army kill taking WF back from the Boltons" followed by the "Sometimes strenght is terrible"-speech, which seems to appease him enough to drop the subject.

I also think that they fail to portray the romance well, but mainly because of the script, but the fact they have no chemistry together (but they act much better with other actors around) doesn't help.

This is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I personally believe that you are wrong, and that Kit and Emilia have great chemistry. (which they should have given that they are close friends irl.)
I think their scenes when they are alone together (cave E4, boat E6, dragonpit E7) are amazing.
 

 

4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

He would never burn people alive, she does.
And she would never behead people like he does. The end result is the same: execution. It's interesting how Dany using fire her way of execution seems to taboo, but no one bats an eye when people are hanged, beheaded, etc.

 

4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Fine, 'cause I'm not alone either with my interpretation of the events up to this point.
No you're not, but you are in the minority. 

 

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

a king or queen doesnt need to marry another monarch, and Dany doesnt see Jon as a king either.
She does actually. She doesn't want to acknowledge the fact that he's a king over one of the kingdoms she considers to be hers by right, but she does acknowledge the fact that he was chosen as king by his own people. She even calls him king on a few occasions:
"What does the King in the North want with dragonglass?"(E3) 
"They will if their king does."(E4)
"Just the King in the north? Not me?" (E7)
And she doesn't object when Jon calls himself a "king" in front of her in E5.

mirror each other but still you fail to see the HUGE incompatibilities in their personalities.

What incompatibilities? 
Dany can be a bit temperamental, but we've already seen Jon's ability to calm her down, and Jon on the flip side can be a bit sullen and broody, and we've seen that Dany's ability to reassure him and make him feel better about himself.
If anything they complement each other very well.

 

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

of course I can. If by epi 4 they are not even friends they cant visibly become believable soulmate lovers just with a couple of scenes and she rescuing him for his stupid idea (she implies it was a silly idea of brave men) but maybe she just falls in live with men who bend the knee and he finally does.

But they are friends in episode 4.

of course Dany doesnt want any of them to go there but she is extremely more concerned about Jon, as if she was in love with him and it is not consistent with the previous scenes unless we see them as romantic. And I don't.

But many do, and it's clear that the show is pushing the narrative that they have romantic feelings for each other at this point, they just aren't showing the other person how much they actually care.

 

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

oh and Davos about off screen Jonerys makes it even worse. We are told about it as I said. Good romance doesnt need that.
Your posts in this thread show why Davos' (and Tyrions) comments was necessary. I still see a lot of comments from people who doesn't think that Jon and Dany are in love, despite the juxtaposition of Brans "he loved her and she loved him" when they show Jon knocking on Dany's door. 

Also, their comments where as much to the audience as to the character they where talking to.
Dany doesn't notice when Jon looks at her, because he only looks when she's looking at something else (He doesn't want her to notice that he's looking) - but Davos and Tyrion notices.
Just as Jorah notices how Dany looks at Jon.
 

Comments in bold.

[jcmontea]

23 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The article mentioned and the books themselves. Oh, and the SSM where George and D&D are in a bookstore doing an interview and they talk about how HBO gave them the books to read for the job.

(Have you read the books? Do you remember Dany's prophetic dreams?)

Yup. Which dreams are you talking about specifically?

[TheSlayerofLies]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

evidence 3: Partnership in some form? Totally. We all know that they will meet. But that's not evidence on the title of the series being solely about them, just hints on the plot -them meeting-as complete evidence.

Alan Taylor spoke with several publications; this is what he said when speaking with Mashable 

Quote

Mashable:  We see Jon and Daenerys share a moment of intimacy on the ship, but then there’s that subtle shift and Dany pulls away and shuts down on him – what’s going through her mind in that moment?

Alan Taylor:  Certainly those who have read the books or are reading the books know that we've been heading in this direction for a long time. I've mentioned before that it was a revelation to me about the scale of George R. R. Martin's thinking that he came to visit the set in Season 1, when none of us knew what we were contending with really, and said a few things that made it clear that, for him, this whole epic thing — this story he was telling — all came down to these two and them getting together. 

Of course, back then, none of us knew that. We didn't know that Robb Stark was going to [die] – he seemed like he was the heir apparent, and the fact that this bastard sidekick brother and this girl on a whole different continent were going to turn into the core of the show, we didn't see that coming yet. 

I think we've known for a while that Tyrion is making fun of Dany, because he sees what's coming. I think there's a bunch of things at work in that scene, and they pulled it off wonderfully. It's just the right level of swooning for each other but drawing back. It was one close-up of Emilia that really tells that story very well, where you see her, she's going over the edge, and then she forces herself back when she pulls her hand back. It's probably because she's got a lot of responsibility. She can't be falling like this. Tyrion has already made fun of her for this, so she's got that motive to draw back. I think everybody understands it's pretty inevitable.

- [bolding emphasis mine]

http://mashable.com/2017/08/22/game-of-thrones-ending-daenerys-jon-together-george-r-r-martin/#oMldVklNRmqY

 

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Yup. Which dreams are you talking about specifically?

You don't know? Try the search of ice and fire option of you need a refresher (sometimes we all do at one point or another). Look up dreams, armored in ice, Trident, etc. Generally those types of terms.

And also GRRM is planning for another DoD, and there is a good chance Jon gets a dragon (probably Drogon) from Dany and they clash... because history repeats in ASOIAF, just with a little twist each time. That whole time is a river that spiel Bloodraven tells to Bran thing. First it was a battle on the Trident between Robert and Rhaegar. Now it will be another with another.

[jcmontea]

40 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yup. The word converge/converging was used twice in that interview, however, shippers only focused on the one "converge" and took it to mean sex, instead of, ya know, the actual definition. The article also talked about many other storylines converging, which I guess selectively doesn't mean sex and relationship.

Its not a question of being selective or not knowing the definition of converge all though thats a good attempt at a snide remark. In the article Taylor specifically talks about Jon and Dany on a romantic level and how it had one more step after his episode which was in 7x07. shocking someone would think of sex and relationships if he is talking about a romantic level. 

Interestingly he also talks about their relationship on a political power struggle level and how that will be playing out next year. Will be interesting to see where that goes now that they are a couple and when Aejon is revealed. Could be marriage, could be war we shall see. I think there will be some drama and meaty issues to work through but will ultimatley be resolved peacfully because that feels truer to the characters as I understand them and the actual foreshadowing and evidence shown but who knows. I could be wrong and the second dance of dragons could be between them. Time will tell what type of story this is. 

40 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Also, the books and the show are different. GRRM talked about this while in Helsinki last month. In the books it is planned for Daenerys and Jon to "converge" on the Trident, which would be a battle against each other.

Could be. Although don't think them fighting on the Trident is a consensus view. 

40 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Also, some people need to remember that HBO went to D&D and gave them the books to "adapt". D&D had no idea what these books were about, and they certainly were not such fans that they came up with idea of making the series into a show because they lurved it to bits and were real keen on dissecting the clues hidden within the prose to solve mysteries. Nope. It was a job to them.

Maybe. Not sure this is even relevant. 

40 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And I just want to add that season 7 had the characters still acting book parts that come from other book characters. What we saw on screen was NOT what is planned for Jon and Dany in the books at all. It physically and geographically and logistically cannot happen.

Is that true? Do you have inside info? At the end of season 5/ ADWD the characters were in the same spot. Not sure why it would be phsycially/ logistically impossible for them to meet a book later. But we will see whenever that book comes out. 

40 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Dany played Aegon for the first part of S7. They even had Jorah do a shortened version of Jon Connington along with Aegon (fAegon). Then Dany went on to play another female character that is not Daenerys by any means.

Jon played Arianne in her TWOW chapters in S7. Then Jon went backwards and started re-playing his own book-Jon arc in ADWD (before the mutiny) when he started working with the free folk and integrating them in to the North and garrisoning castles along the wall with free folk people, etc.

Oh, also adding, the whole concept of Jon (or anyone) mining dragonglass from Dragonstone comes from the Stannis plot when he has Rolland Storm stay behind and do JUST that same thing. THIS IS NOT A JON PLOT!

The "Night King" played Quentyn in the dragonpit scene under the pyramid (yes, the show recycled half of that plot) when they had the NK take Viserion:

They turned the Night King into Quentyn Martell

• "More meat," Quentyn said. Once the beasts were fed they will become sluggish. He had seen it work with snakes in Dorne, but here, with these monsters … "Bring … bring …"
  Viserion launched himself from the ceiling, pale leather wings unfolding, spreading wide. The broken chain dangling from his neck swung wildly. His flame lit the pit, pale gold shot through with red and orange, and the stale air exploded in a cloud of hot ash and sulfur as the white wings beat and beat again.
  A hand seized Quentyn by the shoulder. The torch spun from his grip to bounce across the floor, then tumbled into the pit, still burning. He found himself face-to-face with a brass ape. Gerris. "Quent, this will not work. They are too wild, they …"
• Quentyn heard the sellswords shouting. Caggo was calling for the chains, and Pretty Meris was screaming at someone to step aside. The dragon moved awkwardly on the ground, like a man scrabbling on his knees and elbows, but quicker than the Dornish prince would have believed. When the Windblown were too late to get out of his way, Viserion let loose with another roar. Quentyn heard the rattle of chains, the deep thrum of a crossbow.

  "No," he screamed, "no, don't, don't," but it was too late. The fool was all that he had time to think as the quarrel caromed off Viserion's neck to vanish in the gloom. A line of fire gleamed in its wake—dragon's blood, glowing gold and red.

...and the Plotzee! continues...

 

[jcmontea]

15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You don't know? Try the search of ice and fire option of you need a refresher (sometimes we all do at one point or another). Look up dreams, armored in ice, Trident, etc. Generally those types of terms

Lol. So condescending love it. 

That dream? You are assuming that means she fights Jon but it seems it could just as easily mean she fights the others on the Trident. 

Quote

And also GRRM is planning for another DoD, and there is a good chance Jon gets a dragon (probably Drogon) from Dany and they clash... because history repeats in ASOIAF, just with a little twist each time. That whole time is a river that spiel Bloodraven tells to Bran thing. First it was a battle on the Trident between Robert and Rhaegar. Now it will be another with another.

Yes. In the books we have FAegon. At this point feels much more liklier that the dance of dragons will be between Dany and FAegon who will be in the south and the murmer's dragons whose lies Dany is meant to slay instead of against Jon.

also, your suggestion that Jon could ride Drogon against Dany seems difficult to sqaure with this:

"Once a dragon has bonded with a rider, that dragon will not allow anyone else to mount it while its rider lives, no matter how familiar said person might be to the dragon,"

[The Fattest Leech]

38 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Its not a question of being selective or not knowing the definition of converge all though thats a good attempt at a snide remark. In the article Taylor specifically talks about Jon and Dany on a romantic level

Taylor hadn't read the books either (as he gives evidence to by his surprise of character deaths). He seems to be assuming that main guy gets with main girl. I have read plenty, plenty of GRRM's books, and I can tell you that this is not how he works.

George R. R. Martin's thinking that he came to visit the set in Season 1, when none of us knew what we were contending with really, and said a few things that made it clear that, for him, this whole epic thing — this story he was telling — all came down to these two and them getting together. 

Of course, back then, none of us knew that. We didn't know that Robb Stark was going to [die] – he seemed like he was the heir apparent, and the fact that this bastard sidekick brother and this girl on a whole different continent were going to turn into the core of the show, we didn't see that coming yet. 

Taylor also said this:

Q: So we’re just hoping everybody’s cool with the incest thing?

AT: Oh, you know, it’s worked for Cersei and Jaime. [Laughs.] Nothing went wrong there.

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and how it had one more step after his episode which was in 7x07. shocking someone would think of sex and relationships if he is talking about a romantic level. 

If you really think he gave away the ending to his story to some people he doesn't know, then you may just be fooling yourself. And all of this atleast three books before he actually wrote the ending???

This is what people are going gaga over...

http://deadline.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-spoilers-recap-kit-harington-emilia-clarke-alan-taylor-beyond-the-wall-season-7-hbo-1202152264/

So it wasn’t clear to us at the time, but he did sort of say things that made it clear that the meeting and the convergence of Jon and Dany were sort of the point of the series.

(But he says converge here and yet no one goes gaga over this. I guess it implies a giant orgy if the first converge is meant as "sex"? He is using the word in the general sense.)

Now everything’s converging, and that’s going to get only more so in Season 8 when really, all the storylines come together.

Quote

Interestingly he also talks about their relationship on a political power struggle level and how that will be playing out next year. Will be interesting to see where that goes now that they are a couple and when Aejon is revealed. Could be marriage, could be war we shall see. I think there will be some drama and meaty issues to work through but will ultimatley be resolved peacfully because that feels truer to the characters as I understand them and the actual foreshadowing and evidence shown but who knows. I could be wrong and the second dance of dragons could be between them. Time will tell what type of story this is. 

Could be. Although don't think them fighting on the Trident is a consensus view. 

Did you read the books? She literally says Trident, which is flooding and freezing over, and people are about to be pushed down out of the north towards the Trident, etc. I don't know what else you need.

George has also said that Dany will be with the Dothraki for most of TWOW, and the plot in Westeros is not going to stall until she gets there. Things are happening there while she is out in the great grass sea awaiting her (as George termed it) her invasion.

Quote

Maybe. Not sure this is even relevant. 

It is. They were not fans to start with because they never read or heard of the books. It was an assignment that brought them to this series, not an undying love of the details and plot progression and prophecy and hidden clues, etc. Then the D's joined the forum here to try and read up and 'interact' with the book fans.

Quote

Is that true? Do you have inside info? At the end of season 5/ ADWD the characters were in the same spot. Not sure why it would be phsycially/ logistically impossible for them to meet a book later. But we will see whenever that book comes out. 

 

Um, the season do not line up with the books one to one. At all. That changed about midway through season 3 (I believe). And what does S5 have to do with what we were just shown? As I pointed out, with book text, S7 was about the showrunners pulling in other book character arcs in order to fill the space needed until S8. That is part of the scramble the showrunners do. They are only ahead in the books by a few select TWOW released chapters, and then Jon's show arc goes back in time to before he got mutiny stabbed when he was dealing with the wall politics and placing the free folk in the lower North and at the wall.

So, in TWOW, you think Jon is going to wake up and head to Dragonstone to mine for dragonglass? Where did Rolland Storm go to? And Aegon and JonCon? And the golden company (who I read was being shifted around for someone else's plot for S8).

Have you read the two released chapters of Arianne in TWOW? Then you will know about the cave scene she has in that and what she sees in there... which the show rearranged to fill in parts for S7. This was all plot from some other character in the books that we already read about.

I'm working and shouldn't be on the computer at the moment, so, until we meet again

[jcmontea]

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Taylor hadn't read the books either (as he gives evidence to by his surprise of character deaths). He seems to be assuming that main guy gets with main girl. I have read plenty, plenty of GRRM's books, and I can tell you that this is not how he works.

George R. R. Martin's thinking that he came to visit the set in Season 1, when none of us knew what we were contending with really, and said a few things that made it clear that, for him, this whole epic thing — this story he was telling — all came down to these two and them getting together. 

Of course, back then, none of us knew that. We didn't know that Robb Stark was going to [die] – he seemed like he was the heir apparent, and the fact that this bastard sidekick brother and this girl on a whole different continent were going to turn into the core of the show, we didn't see that coming yet. 

Taylor also said this:

Q: So we’re just hoping everybody’s cool with the incest thing?

AT: Oh, you know, it’s worked for Cersei and Jaime. [Laughs.] Nothing went wrong there.

If you really think he gave away the ending to his story to some people he doesn't know, then you may just be fooling yourself. And all of this atleast three books before he actually wrote the ending???

Your putting words in my mouth or your not reading clearly. I didn't say he gave away the ending. I said he said the point of this story is these two which argues for one interpretation of the series title being them. 

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is what people are going gaga over...

http://deadline.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-spoilers-recap-kit-harington-emilia-clarke-alan-taylor-beyond-the-wall-season-7-hbo-1202152264/

So it wasn’t clear to us at the time, but he did sort of say things that made it clear that the meeting and the convergence of Jon and Dany were sort of the point of the series.

(But he says converge here and yet no one goes gaga over this. I guess it implies a giant orgy if the first converge is meant as "sex"? He is using the word in the general sense.)

Now everything’s converging, and that’s going to get only more so in Season 8 when really, all the storylines come together.

No. That is not what people are going gaga over. Read the whole interview. Was quoted above. 

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Did you read the books? She literally says Trident, which is flooding and freezing over, and people are about to be pushed down out of the north towards the Trident, etc. I don't know what else you need.

This is the quote: 

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

You have not provided an explanation as to why this is more likely Jon than the Others other than to just continue asserting it. You also, have not provided an explanation as to why the second dance will be Dany and Jon instead of Dany and FAegon. You also have not provided an explanation as to how Jon will ride Drogon against Dany despite this possibility being contradicted by known dragon lore provided in the books. 

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

George has also said that Dany will be with the Dothraki for most of TWOW, and the plot in Westeros is not going to stall until she gets there. Things are happening there while she is out in the great grass sea awaiting her (as George termed it) her invasion.

In the show we are in ADOS territory so not really relevant where things are in TWOW. 

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It is. They were not fans to start with because they never read or heard of the books. It was an assignment that brought them to this series, not an undying love of the details and plot progression and prophecy and hidden clues, etc. Then the D's joined the forum here to try and read up and 'interact' with the book fans.

Um, the season do not line up with the books one to one. At all. That changed about midway through season 3 (I believe). And what does S5 have to do with what we were just shown? As I pointed out, with book text, S7 was about the showrunners pulling in other book character arcs in order to fill the space needed until S8. That is part of the scramble the showrunners do. They are only ahead in the books by a few select TWOW released chapters, and then Jon's show arc goes back in time to before he got mutiny stabbed when he was dealing with the wall politics and placing the free folk in the lower North and at the wall.

No. They are not only ahead by a few TWOW chapters. 

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So, in TWOW, you think Jon is going to wake up and head to Dragonstone to mine for dragonglass? Where did Rolland Storm go to? And Aegon and JonCon? And the golden company (who I read was being shifted around for someone else's plot for S8).

Your baseline assumption is wrong. We are well beyond the TWOW. 

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Have you read the two released chapters of Arianne in TWOW? Then you will know about the cave scene she has in that and what she sees in there... which the show rearranged to fill in parts for S7. This was all plot from some other character in the books that we already read about.

Yes. I know about that scene and read the chapter. It doesn't support your contention since something can be used for inspiration in an adaptation at a point much later on or this Arianne cave scene could be set up/ forwshadowing for whatever is in Dragonstone. We don't know. 

 

 

[Meera of Tarth]

11 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

No, according to you it needs an on-screen first kiss, which is much more better apparently.

It's done in all the TV shows, bcause it's the big moment, and I found it very odd that we didn't have that and instead we moved to a sex scene. If I was a shipper I'd be disappointed.