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Sansa's Role In The War For The Dawn?


AEJON TARGARYEN

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1 hour ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

Surely you don't believe that this is a coincidence?

Um... no.  The entire point of that post wasn't that there's tons of animals that are all possibilities of skin changing.  It was to show that animal imagery, for the overwhelming majority of contexts, was a reflection of where that character is in their story and not about skinchanging.  From talking parrot < dove/pigeon < merlin.  The falcon is not Sansa, but she's been offered a chance to become a falcon by marrying an Arryn, which I'm 99% sure is not going to happen.  Unlike her other siblings, Sansa has been the longest in captivity, so it also doesn't surprise me if she has more birds than the others as birds are often symbols of desiring freedom.  But I never said I was ruling out a literal bird as a possibility for skin changing.  I said maybe.  And looks like that is dependent upon her spending some time up close and personal with a bird.  We do know is that the closest she has come on page to skinchanging so far is the old blind dog. She was already bonding with it, but that relationship was cut short.  I wasn't even arguing that bats were the strongest of candidates and I did say the bat imagery was probably going to be no more or less symbolic than birds or any other animal both sisters have been compared to.  What makes the bat slightly different in my opinion, is that it does come from within both sisters in their heritage and is related to their true identities.  Bird identities are mostly thrust upon them by other people or ones they've had to adopt to survive.

And mixed up in the bird imagery with Sansa and SR is also bear imagery.  Twice Sansa has been compared to a bear cub in the Eyrie and SR wears a bear skin cloak.  She is mothering him more overtime so she's become a she-bear with her cub, indicating her growing protective nature of him.  But she's also a surrogate mother, she has no milk.  And the "milk" he's been getting all his life is toxic.  How to mother birds feed their chicks? By mouth.  How does Sansa nourish SR?  By telling him he's brave and strong, he's Ser Sweetrobin and Artys Arryn, which leads to him changing his thinking and behavior for the better.  So no, there are no coincidences with any animal, bird or otherwise.   

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Good points above. The most important thing is that the girls include wings and flight in their self-image, otherwise they will fall in the final test. And now Shadrich has wings as well - I wonder what his story will be?

It would be realistic enough for Sansa to skinchange any creature, but I think it would be difficult to use that bond to gain the power she needs. This point brings me full circle, because I actually came into this forum with the argument that the only creature that could make a difference to Sansa would be a dragon. I'm pretty confident she will go toe-to-toe with a dragon, because Tyrion has made a promise to burn the Vale, and he is the strongest candidate for Viserion. However - I no longer think that Bran/Bloodraven will be remotely guiding Sansa into full-on skinchanging. In that case, she must rely on her native wits and charm - soothe the wrath and tame the fury - and the chance that she reminds the dragon of his mother and the young women who raised him.

I've been re-reading some of those earlier threads, and there's some really good ideas there. Recommended.

What do you think Sansa's role is going to be in the last few books?

If Sansa is a skinchanger, how&when will she start manifesting it?

The Bat and the Wolf

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4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Good points above. The most important thing is that the girls include wings and flight in their self-image, otherwise they will fall in the final test. And now Shadrich has wings as well - I wonder what his story will be?

It would be realistic enough for Sansa to skinchange any creature, but I think it would be difficult to use that bond to gain the power she needs. This point brings me full circle, because I actually came into this forum with the argument that the only creature that could make a difference to Sansa would be a dragon. I'm pretty confident she will go toe-to-toe with a dragon, because Tyrion has made a promise to burn the Vale, and he is the strongest candidate for Viserion. However - I no longer think that Bran/Bloodraven will be remotely guiding Sansa into full-on skinchanging. In that case, she must rely on her native wits and charm - soothe the wrath and tame the fury - and the chance that she reminds the dragon of his mother and the young women who raised him.

I've been re-reading some of those earlier threads, and there's some really good ideas there. Recommended.

What do you think Sansa's role is going to be in the last few books?

If Sansa is a skinchanger, how&when will she start manifesting it?

The Bat and the Wolf

Interesting, thank you for the links! I like your theory. 

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On 04/09/2017 at 8:06 AM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 I had this conversation about hawking with @The Weirwoods Eyes  not that long ago who had some good points about that.  Maybe not a falcon, but a perhaps a merlin which is the smallest ("Little Bird") of the birds used in hawking.  Lady was the smallest of the direwolves. They might be small, but they are known to be aggressive hunters that can take down birds as big as themselves.

Hi. Waves. First time I've been here in yonks. Twas a busy summer holidays! I only came on to find a link for your Hedge Knights essay, as I wanted to show someone on another forum. I saw this topic when it was first posted but was busy. I guess I need to dive in and read it from the beginning. But I will surmise the Hawking theory when I get back from the school run. Thanks for the tag. 

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So, we all recall how in ACOK Sansa goes Hawking with Margaery and the other Tyrell girls. Whilst we do not go with Sansa via her POv we do get her recollection of it later. I do think it was deliberate though that GRRM did not give us this scene. Whilst they are out Sansa selects a Merlin, Which sorry to point out BEW. is a Falcon. It is the smallest of the genus though (in Europe at least I do not know much about the rest of the world) And her bird takes three ducks, whilst Marges Peregrine takes a Heron. The possible imagery of that has been discussed. But what I think is that given that Sansa is in the Vale there is a high chance she will go hawking again, she told Olenna that she had done some hawking at WF so this is an activity she can feel confident in, we've seen she had success last time, and she is experienced enough in it. That it would make a suitable date for her and Harry. Or a day trip with Randa, or indeed an activity to take SR on, to help build him up some more. It is after all the embodiment of Vale life.  As has been discussed she has had various almost skinchanging experiences already and it would be easy to write the Hawking scene in such a manner which informs that she's been doing this activity a fair bit since arriving on the vale floor. And given the imagery around her relating to little birds her slipping the littlest bird seems apt. The Merlin is also known as the Pigeon Hawk btw. And Pigeons are doves, there is no real distinction between the two. Probably could have written that out more convincingly but it's friday night I've had a busy day and I have a bottle of pink prosecco with my name on it in the fridge and Dr Strange on DVD to watch. 

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@The Weirwoods Eyes I am out driving around and running errands while ACOK is on to accompany me. I noticed that Asha's nose is referred to as a "hawk beak" several times by Theon. This brings me to a statement George once made about women rising to power as the story progresses, or something very close to that. I wonder if this imagery is associated with Asha also rising to power in her way as we see happening with Sansa? I would love to see Asha take some control over the Iron Born ways. 

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It would be a bit odd not to see any falconry surrounding Lord Arryn - the Lannisters even kept lions - but I don't know if Sansa would consider falconry in character for Alayne. It's likely though that SR will be offered falcons, so that might be close enough.

It's a very good point that a heron is a fish-eating bird. Fish to me point to all the Patchface stuff about future life under the sea - so I'd say fish take the place of all the mice and squirrels and wolves and deer that currently represent people. The heron therefore is a bit of a monster that devours humanity. Littlefinger preying on the Tullys is just one example of this - I think there might be another one.

Sansa's merlin brought down three ducks, and Margaery's peregrine brought down the heron. The falcons might both be the brothers. Sansa's wizard brother Bran subdues three... three what? Three flying things that might be dragons (at the top end of the scale), or metaphorical mice with wings like Shadrich (at the bottom). Margaery's brother would be the peregrine, the wanderer, the knight errant. Could be Loras - why have armour covered in forget-me-nots if he's not coming back into the story? And he defeats something that I think will be a literal monster that eats people. Perhaps an incarnation of the stone beast. That would be fun.

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14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes I am out driving around and running errands while ACOK is on to accompany me. I noticed that Asha's nose is referred to as a "hawk beak" several times by Theon. This brings me to a statement George once made about women rising to power as the story progresses, or something very close to that. I wonder if this imagery is associated with Asha also rising to power in her way as we see happening with Sansa? I would love to see Asha take some control over the Iron Born ways. 

I have a theory about Asha. 

Seriously though, I think Asha will rule the Iron Islands through Theon after he disputes the Kings Moot, there is precedent for that. yes. And that she is pregnant, she did not get a chance to drink Moontea after fucking Qarl the Maid. But as she is officially married, her child will be legitimate. And thus become Theon's heir, so when Theon dies she will be the regent. I think iirc there is a similar tale in the WOIAF book in the iron islands history?

But the realisation that the baby will be legitimate despite clearly not being Eric Ironmakers child as she has never slept with him came to me whilst I was reading The Fiery Cross in which Fanny Beardsley gives birth to a daughter who is clearly not her husbands as she is mixed race and despite this the child inherits Aaron Beardsley's trading post. Because fanny was married to Aaron so the child is legally his no matter that it is obvious she is not genetically. 

So yes, I think Asha will end up in power via her child and via being Theon's right-hand woman whilst he rules. It had been a bug bear for some time trying to work out why GRRM had married Asha off to the old bloke when it did not seem to add anything to the story, so when I was reading the Outlander series and I got to that bit a light bulb pinged on. 

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